Ephesians 2:8,9: A Simple Interpretation

Correct, there is nothing stated about God dropping a faith in us that before we never had. That Jesus is the author and perfector of faith is consistent with demonstrating His work through the Spirit and various other means to cause us to exercise and strengthen our faith.

 

Strictly speaking, it doesn’t say, “I will put my faith in their inward parts;” but it does say that God will give us the grace to please Him by our obedience via this inward work.

The rest of the verses cited are irrelevant.

 

(1) The argument Jesus presents John 6 contemplates those who are believing (as you agreed) in contrast to the religious audience in the narrative who refused to believe. It should be noted further that the faith assumed, without reference to individuals in particular, is the faith that continues to he end.

(2) John 12:32 (cf. 3:16) contemplates all men without exception and while the faith in the above verse assumes believers in particular, this verse respects the general influence the Cross will have on all men. Note His invitation to the audience in verses 35 and 36 (yet, also, note no such invitation seems to be made in chapter 6; cf. 6:36).

Note also verse 24 where Jesus symbolically states that His death will result in “much fruit.” Then, in verses 25-26 and 44-48, the subjects contemplated are between those who trust in Christ and those who do not.

Note also, in comparison with verse 24, is verse 32 where Jesus states that His being “lifted up,” a necessary event (which is the main point of this saying and men being drawn is a secondary consideration, cf. verses 33-34), which will result in all men being drawn to Him though not necessarily believing in Him, as again taken in context with verses 25-26 and 44-48.

Therefore, recognizing the subjects of chapter 6 in comparison to chapter 12, I conclude:

1. In John 12:37 (cf. vs. 44), contextually considered, “all” recognizes those who believe in Christ and by their continuance in faith are saved, in direct contrast with Jesus’ audience who are refusing to believe (vss. 53-58).

2. In John 6:32, contextually considered, “all” contemplates all men without exception who will be drawn to the Cross by virtue of God’s desire to save all men though not all men drawn will necessarily have faith, or if they obtain faith will continue in it, so as to be saved (vs. 44f).

3. In both cases, the idea that “those drawn by the Father must believe” finds no support. In the first case it is because those who are contemplated are nowhere identified as believers in particular as individuals but believers in particular in general; and, in the second case, it is not believers in particular who are contemplated but all men in general as sinners being drawn towards the Cross event.

4. In both chapters, there is no admission of a natural inability in man to turn in faith to Christ, however, it is everywhere assumed that the act of believing in Christ is for man to do: “he who believes;” “he who eats this bread;” "He who loves his life…and he who hates his life;” “he must follow Me;” “believe in the Light;” “This is the work of God, that you believe;” etc. Therefore, the idea that man has no ability to believe in Christ has no support, at least, in these chapters.

5. Nowhere in either chapter is God’s enabling beyond giving opportunity, influencing or providing the means (whether within the individual or without) whereby salvation can be had and maintained, and there is no enabling apart from the individual’s cooperation: “Walk while you have the Light;” “While you have the Light, believe;” “if I am lifted up from the earth;” “work for the food…which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you;” “it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven;” etc. As such, the idea that faith is something God gives, and only to particular individuals because they have none of their own to exercise, has no support, at the least, in these chapters under discussion.

6. Just as Israel’s refusal to fulfill God’s purposes did not reflect any failure on God’s part, so the possibility that one may be drawn to Christ and yet refuse to believe does not reflect a failure on God’s part but a failure on man’s part (Rom. 9:6; 10:3-5).

I appreciate the time taken to read this extended response.

 

A review of your post showed references to certain verses in Jeremiah and Romans. I answered briefly to the former and, as far as the discussion is concerned, found the latter of no relevance.

However, to you they may have relevance if, in citing them, you wish to demonstrate that the nature of my posts prove I find fault with God and resist His will.

On my part, the verses in question have no relevance either to the discussion at hand or to myself.

 

Unfortunately, the citation you quoted in Peter says nothing about faith, as per the Reformed tradition, being a gift of God; the apostle says that we are guarded by the means of faith.

Note verses 7, 9, 21, and 5:9 which clarify the "faith" being discussed as "your faith."

And in the same way (a while back on another post discussing a different topic) a Calvinist argued for the "clear" teaching of Scripture where in Romans 8:28 "all things" means "all things;" so, also here it can be rightfully argued for the "clear" meaning of Scripture: "your faith" means "your faith."

 

I haven't seen that reading in my Bible either. Neither have I seen it read, "No one can come to me unless God first gives to them the faith to believe."

1. I have shown how the verses you cited do not talk anything about a man's inability that makes it impossible for him to turn to God in faith. So far, no rebuttal showing how the verses can be clearly interpreted to mean man’s said inability has yet been submitted.

2. I explained it briefly to the best I know how. Maybe someone else can explain it better.

3. You have not explained where and how I have mistranslated or misinterpreted the text.

From one who praises God because He's got the grace to put up with me,

Nelson

 

No one denies that God guards the believer but the believer is guarded by means of his faith just like 1 Peter 1:5 states. It says nothing about faith being given as a gift; aand, as stated before, the context is the believer's faith (cf. verses 7,9).

Unfortunately, for your position, to say that the teaching here is about God giving us faith is going way off.

(What happened to interpreting the scriptures according to what they say?)

I have no idea what is "proper context" to you, but in it's "proper context" nothing is said about God giving us faith; however, all that verses 3,4, and 5a mention, in their proper context, are obtained "through faith."

Was this part of someone's sermon?

In any case, it does nothing to bolster your argument for 1 Peter 1:5.

Was not really the topic under discussion.