Ephesians 2:8,9: A Simple Interpretation

[Nelson]

By Hamilton: ...Hebrews 12:2 states that Jesus is the author and perfector(completer, finisher) of our faith. Not exactly the terminology of dropping it in us, but clearly shows that our faith does not originate with us and that we do not complete it.

Correct, there is nothing stated about God dropping a faith in us that before we never had. That Jesus is the author and perfector of faith is consistent with demonstrating His work through the Spirit and various other means to cause us to exercise and strengthen our faith.

 

[Nelson]

Tyndale: Jeremiah 33: …I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts…for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Strictly speaking, it doesn’t say, “I will put my faith in their inward parts;” but it does say that God will give us the grace to please Him by our obedience via this inward work.

The rest of the verses cited are irrelevant.

 

[tyndale1946]

Nelson said:The rest of the verses cited are irrelevant. I guess they would be to someone who believes its their own faith that saves them eternally.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Looks to me like God did it ALL!... Nelson if you and the other brethren who are of like belief as yourself want to believe what you state, you are welcome to it. I don't serve God to get eternal life but because I already have it... The promises of God are sure having this seal the Lord knoweth them that are him and let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity!... Brother Glen

 

[Nelson]

Nelson: Therefore, my assertion that the objects of the Father's drawing are believers is taken from verses 29,35,36,40,47,64; the whole chapter explicates symbolically that faith required of those whom God draws.

Hamilton: I will agree with you, Nelson, to the extent that, yes, those that are drawn by the Father, believe. And, yes, those drawn by the Father must believe. Repentance and faith are necessary components of conversion.

The issue is are repentance and faith items that man has the natural ability to do or must God enable him to perform them. I believe it is God that enables him and God cannot fail.

(1) The argument Jesus presents John 6 contemplates those who are believing (as you agreed) in contrast to the religious audience in the narrative who refused to believe. It should be noted further that the faith assumed, without reference to individuals in particular, is the faith that continues to he end.

(2) John 12:32 (cf. 3:16) contemplates all men without exception and while the faith in the above verse assumes believers in particular, this verse respects the general influence the Cross will have on all men. Note His invitation to the audience in verses 35 and 36 (yet, also, note no such invitation seems to be made in chapter 6; cf. 6:36).

Note also verse 24 where Jesus symbolically states that His death will result in “much fruit.” Then, in verses 25-26 and 44-48, the subjects contemplated are between those who trust in Christ and those who do not.

Note also, in comparison with verse 24, is verse 32 where Jesus states that His being “lifted up,” a necessary event (which is the main point of this saying and men being drawn is a secondary consideration, cf. verses 33-34), which will result in all men being drawn to Him though not necessarily believing in Him, as again taken in context with verses 25-26 and 44-48.

Therefore, recognizing the subjects of chapter 6 in comparison to chapter 12, I conclude:

1. In John 12:37 (cf. vs. 44), contextually considered, “all” recognizes those who believe in Christ and by their continuance in faith are saved, in direct contrast with Jesus’ audience who are refusing to believe (vss. 53-58).

2. In John 6:32, contextually considered, “all” contemplates all men without exception who will be drawn to the Cross by virtue of God’s desire to save all men though not all men drawn will necessarily have faith, or if they obtain faith will continue in it, so as to be saved (vs. 44f).

3. In both cases, the idea that “those drawn by the Father must believe” finds no support. In the first case it is because those who are contemplated are nowhere identified as believers in particular as individuals but believers in particular in general; and, in the second case, it is not believers in particular who are contemplated but all men in general as sinners being drawn towards the Cross event.

4. In both chapters, there is no admission of a natural inability in man to turn in faith to Christ, however, it is everywhere assumed that the act of believing in Christ is for man to do: “he who believes;” “he who eats this bread;” "He who loves his life…and he who hates his life;” “he must follow Me;” “believe in the Light;” “This is the work of God, that you believe;” etc. Therefore, the idea that man has no ability to believe in Christ has no support, at least, in these chapters.

5. Nowhere in either chapter is God’s enabling beyond giving opportunity, influencing or providing the means (whether within the individual or without) whereby salvation can be had and maintained, and there is no enabling apart from the individual’s cooperation: “Walk while you have the Light;” “While you have the Light, believe;” “if I am lifted up from the earth;” “work for the food…which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you;” “it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven;” etc. As such, the idea that faith is something God gives, and only to particular individuals because they have none of their own to exercise, has no support, at the least, in these chapters under discussion.

6. Just as Israel’s refusal to fulfill God’s purposes did not reflect any failure on God’s part, so the possibility that one may be drawn to Christ and yet refuse to believe does not reflect a failure on God’s part but a failure on man’s part (Rom. 9:6; 10:3-5).

I appreciate the time taken to read this extended response.

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by tyndale1946: Nelson said:The rest of the verses cited are irrelevant. I guess they would be to someone who believes its their own faith that saves them eternally.

A review of your post showed references to certain verses in Jeremiah and Romans. I answered briefly to the former and, as far as the discussion is concerned, found the latter of no relevance.

However, to you they may have relevance if, in citing them, you wish to demonstrate that the nature of my posts prove I find fault with God and resist His will.

On my part, the verses in question have no relevance either to the discussion at hand or to myself.

 

[Chris Temple]

The "simple" interpretation of Eph 2:8-10 is this:

For by grace - the grace of God is the subject of causation, the agent of salvation.

you have been saved - the believer has been saved, and has nto saved himself.

through faith - faith is the conduit through which salvation comes. Salvation is by grace, through faith.

and that not of yourselves - What is not? What can a person think is of themselves, but is not? Grace? Clearly grace is not a human product. Salvation? No, no one saves themselves. Only faith can the human believe that they have self-gernerated. But Paul says that even this is not of the believer but of God.

it is the gift of God - The very faith we exhibit toward Christ is a God-given gift.(cf.1 Peter 1:5)

not as a result of works, - faith is not generated by man or else it is a work of man. But rather faith is a gift of God to the believer.

so that no one may boast - whoever is smart enough to choose Chrsit can boast of doing so; but our saving faith is a gift of our election in Christ, and all the boasting is of the Lord who bought us.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus - we are His workmanship. He has created us, and not we ourselves. We are new creations made anew by the Creator, and not by ourselves.

for good works - the antithesis of self-salvation. We are nto saved by works, but for works. God does all of the saving.

which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. - It was all accomplished in eternity past. We will walk in the way that God has foreordained.

 

[Eric B]

What is not? What can a person think is of themselves, but is not? Grace? Clearly grace is not a human product. Salvation? No, no one saves themselves. Only faith can the human believe that they have self-gernerated.

No, the Jews thought their salvation was the product of their own efforts. They weren't even thinking about simple "faith" back then. That was the whole point. Once again, the contrast is faith vs. works, not faith vs. grace.
Nice try, though!

[ June 18, 2002, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Chris Temple: The "simple" interpretation of Eph 2:8-10 is this...it is the gift of God - The very faith we exhibit toward Christ is a God-given gift.(cf.1 Peter 1:5)

Unfortunately, the citation you quoted in Peter says nothing about faith, as per the Reformed tradition, being a gift of God; the apostle says that we are guarded by the means of faith.

Note verses 7, 9, 21, and 5:9 which clarify the "faith" being discussed as "your faith."

And in the same way (a while back on another post discussing a different topic) a Calvinist argued for the "clear" teaching of Scripture where in Romans 8:28 "all things" means "all things;" so, also here it can be rightfully argued for the "clear" meaning of Scripture: "your faith" means "your faith."

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Eric B:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What is not? What can a person think is of themselves, but is not? Grace? Clearly grace is not a human product. Salvation? No, no one saves themselves. Only faith can the human believe that they have self-gernerated.

No, the Jews thought their salvation was the product of their own efforts. They weren't even thinking about simple "faith" back then. That was the whole point. Once again, the contrast is faith vs. works, not faith vs. grace.
Nice try, though!</font>[/QUOTE]This is quite incorrect. To say that "the Jews" were believing in faith by works completely discounts the fact that true believers always believed in salvation by grace, through faith. Every true OT saint understood this. The elect were and are always saved by grace. The unregenerate always believe(d) in salvation by works.

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Nelson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chris Temple: The "simple" interpretation of Eph 2:8-10 is this...it is the gift of God - The very faith we exhibit toward Christ is a God-given gift.(cf.1 Peter 1:5)

Unfortunately, the citation you quoted in Peter says nothing about faith, as per the Reformed tradition, being a gift of God; the apostle says that we are guarded by the means of faith.
</font>[/QUOTE]Unfortunately, for your position, it does. Who si the one who guards the beleiver in faith; himself? In proper context, the verse says this:

1 Peter 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Why is God blessed by Peter? Because He is the one who has begotten us, the elect, in His abundant mercy. He is the one who has reserved our inheritance in heaven. he is the one who keeps us "by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Have you made your own reservations in heaven? Did you beget yourself in Christ? Do you preserve yourself? If so, there is no need fo a Savior at all.

Comparing scripture with scripture, it is abundantly clear that God assures and provides "that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 ¶ For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Rom 8:28-30.

 

[Nelson]

by Ken Hamilton: Nelson, Somehow my Bible doesn't read, "No one can come to Me unless he believes first".

I haven't seen that reading in my Bible either. Neither have I seen it read, "No one can come to me unless God first gives to them the faith to believe."

by Ken: I guess I don't understand how you take a verse that talks about man's inability and turn it around to actually be talking about man's ability.

1. I have shown how the verses you cited do not talk anything about a man's inability that makes it impossible for him to turn to God in faith. So far, no rebuttal showing how the verses can be clearly interpreted to mean man’s said inability has yet been submitted.

2. I explained it briefly to the best I know how. Maybe someone else can explain it better.

3. You have not explained where and how I have mistranslated or misinterpreted the text.

From one who praises God because He's got the grace to put up with me,

Nelson

 

[Eric B]

This is quite incorrect. To say that "the Jews" were believing in faith by works completely discounts the fact that true believers always believed in salvation by grace, through faith. Every true OT saint understood this. The elect were and are always saved by grace. The unregenerate always believe(d) in salvation by works.

I was referring to the Jews in general. I knew the "true believers" were defined by their faith. That does not change the point.

 

[Nelson]

by Chris Temple: The "simple" interpretation of Eph 2:8-10 is this...it is the gift of God - The very faith we exhibit toward Christ is a God-given gift.(cf.1 Peter 1:5)

Nelson: Unfortunately, the citation you quoted in Peter says nothing about faith, as per the Reformed tradition, being a gift of God; the apostle says that we are guarded by the means of faith.

by Chris Temple: Unfortunately, for your position, it does. Who is the one who guards the beleiver in faith; himself?

No one denies that God guards the believer but the believer is guarded by means of his faith just like 1 Peter 1:5 states. It says nothing about faith being given as a gift; aand, as stated before, the context is the believer's faith (cf. verses 7,9).

Unfortunately, for your position, to say that the teaching here is about God giving us faith is going way off.

(What happened to interpreting the scriptures according to what they say?)

by Chris Temple: In proper context, the verse says this...

I have no idea what is "proper context" to you, but in it's "proper context" nothing is said about God giving us faith; however, all that verses 3,4, and 5a mention, in their proper context, are obtained "through faith."

by Chris Temple: Why is God blessed by Peter? Because ...

Was this part of someone's sermon?

In any case, it does nothing to bolster your argument for 1 Peter 1:5.

by Chris Temple: Comparing scripture with scripture...

Was not really the topic under discussion.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The author of the Book of Hebrews tells the saints, including us, that continuing in faith until the end will be rewarded when we get to Heaven.

Another great truth is that the faith/trust that we have in Jesus surfaces because the Holy Spirit has helped us to see the value of His so great salvation. God does not dole out faith to His chosen elect as documented in Hebrews 10:35. God tell us that they/we are to 'Cast not away . . . YOUR confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.' Our continued confidence in God's saving benefits is not His but ours. The author of the book says in 10:39 ' . . . we are those who believe to the saving of the soul.'

It is our first faith or trust in Christ that saves us and gives to us grace and everlasting life. Continuing to believe, as God reminds us, will yield reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

My point is, that faith is what man does and experiences toward God from his heart that opens the gift of His most excellent grace to the lost.