Equivocating Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You 'non-Cals/free willers/Arminians/synergists' (take your pick) insist that it is YOUR choice, YOUR will, YOUR decision, YOUR action that places you in Christ.

You 'non-Cals/free willers/Arminians/synergists' (take your pick) also insist that it is YOUR choice, YOUR will, YOUR decision; YOUR action as a soul winner that places others in Christ.

IOW, you not only have power over your own eternal destiny, but the eternal destiny of others also.

Slacking soul winners equates to more folks in hell.

Diligent soul winners equate to more folks in heaven.

Is this not correct?

Is this not also 'hyper'?

If that is how the 'non-Cals/free willers/Arminians/synergists' (take your pick) believe....then why arent they out there pounding the street? After all, soul winning is the goal, what its all about. Ive not ever seen 'non-Cals/free willers/Arminians/synergists' (take your pick) pounding on my door & instructing me as the way to get to heaven. What up wit dat! :BangHead:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Good thing there are not really any arminians on this board.

They are all in Arminia right! Sorry. couldn't resist

 

[webdog]

You 'non-Cals/free willers/Arminians/synergists' (take your pick) insist that it is YOUR choice, YOUR will, YOUR decision, YOUR action that places you in Christ.

You 'non-Cals/free willers/Arminians/synergists' (take your pick) also insist that it is YOUR choice, YOUR will, YOUR decision; YOUR action as a soul winner that places others in Christ.

IOW, you not only have power over your own eternal destiny, but the eternal destiny of others also.

Slacking soul winners equates to more folks in hell.

Diligent soul winners equate to more folks in heaven.

Is this not correct?

Is this not also 'hyper'?

You cannot even represent our position correctly, then build your straw man using your ignorance. Any act of faith is initiated by God making your entire post laughable.

 

[Tom Butler]

And you call her a hyper Calvinist as well?

Please understand that I use the term hyper-Calvinist as a description, not an epithet or anything negative. If I called my grandmother a Hardshell Baptist, she would say, "yep, that's what I am."

She did not take offense at the description, and I hope you won't, either, because I meant none.

 

[webdog]

Without appearing arrogant, I would first like to get your description of (1) What is a Calvinist & (2) What is a Hyper Calvinist & (3) Do you agree with KYRED that there is a Hyper REVISIONIST group within the Calvinists that do not walk lock step with regular Calvinist? Oh & lastly can you back up your last statement (I bolded it) with Scripture?

A Calvinist holds to TULIP. A hyper cal is a consistent cal. Yes, there are those who disagree with some tenants, but since they all stand and fall together, they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Ephesians 2:8,9 is as basic as it gets explaining Grace is opposed to earning. It's the very definition of the word.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A Calvinist holds to TULIP. A hyper cal is a consistent cal. Yes, there are those who disagree with some tenants, but since they all stand and fall together, they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Ephesians 2:8,9 is as basic as it gets explaining Grace is opposed to earning. It's the very definition of the word.

OK so this is what Ive been saying (also note that its supported by noted Calvinists like Martin Lloyd-Jones, Sinclair Ferguson, Samuel Rutherford, John Preston, John Piper, Sproul & a few others.)

"The Foundation of the free offering of the gospel is NOT Election. The foundation is that Jesus Christ promises to save all who come to him in belief."

 

[agedman]

A Calvinist holds to TULIP. A hyper cal is a consistent cal. Yes, there are those who disagree with some tenants, but since they all stand and fall together, they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Ephesians 2:8,9 is as basic as it gets explaining Grace is opposed to earning. It's the very definition of the word.

Webdog, there are many who claim to be Calvinists that do not hold to some part of the tulip, and to do so is not "inconsistent with their beliefs" anymore than a Baptist assembly that holds to closed communion is inconsistent with Baptist beliefs in general - just as it applies to those who hold open communion.

But you already knew this.

Your desire to garbage bag it all together and throw it all out has been well noted on the BB.

I suppose that there are some who would do the same with any non-cal.



Ephesians 2 is often misread and misapplied because of basic questions not kept in mind.

What is the unmerited favor of God?

Is it the unmerited favor or God?

Is it the salvation in which the unmerited favor of God bestows?

How is that bestowed?

Does unregenerate human faith actually have any volition?

Does God allow ANY part of the sinful human nature (even human faith) to actually be a part of the new creation that eventually enters glory?

These questions are basic to understanding Ephesians 2:8,9

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Please understand that I use the term hyper-Calvinist as a description, not an epithet or anything negative. If I called my grandmother a Hardshell Baptist, she would say, "yep, that's what I am."

She did not take offense at the description, and I hope you won't, either, because I meant none.

none taken....& I have had extremely loving family that were Good Calvinists. They would however add Methodist as in Calvinistic Methodist (like kinsman Martyn Lloyd-Jones & our beloved George Whitefield & William Williams--Beloved Hymn Writer....see attached).

http://www.misterrichardson.com/welshcalmeth.html

 

[Herald]

A consistent Calvinist is a consistent Calvinist. An inconsistent Calvinist can become a hyper-Calvinist. The Calvinist understands the mystery between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. The Calvinist understands that no one is saved apart from believing the Gospel. The Calvinist also understanding no one can believe the Gospel unless called by the Father and all whom the Father calls will believe. Being at peace with the mystery keeps the Calvinist from straying into hyper-Calvinism.

 

[Rippon]

I have before me The Baptist,Volume 2, by Tom Nettles. Permit me to quote some snips.

Do you know about Basil Manly (1798-1868)? Here he discusses election after showing scriptural proofs.

"It relates to a purpose of God,in eternity,respecting individual human beings who are the subjects of it; who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, -- elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Yest this election did not proceed on the ground of either faith or works foreseen in them; it is an election of grace and not caused by the moral character of the subjects. It is distinguishing, choosing some and not others; it fixes on persons,not on states nor conditions; the number of the elect is, to the mind of God, necessarily definite and certain; but within the gracious purpose, are inseparably included both the means and the end. Jesus Christ was chosen to be the Head of the Church,and all his people were chosen in him; and this choice of them in him, a fact transpiring in eternity, is the source of all the spiritual gifts and graces exercised by them in time. " (p.267)

 

[quantumfaith]

A consistent Calvinist is a consistent Calvinist. An inconsistent Calvinist can become a hyper-Calvinist. The Calvinist understands the mystery between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. The Calvinist understands that no one is saved apart from believing the Gospel. The Calvinist also understanding no one can believe the Gospel unless called by the Father and all whom the Father calls will believe. Being at peace with the mystery keeps the Calvinist from straying into hyper-Calvinism.

And the Arminian or non-calvinist also understands these same things.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A consistent Calvinist is a consistent Calvinist. An inconsistent Calvinist can become a hyper-Calvinist. The Calvinist understands the mystery between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. The Calvinist understands that no one is saved apart from believing the Gospel. The Calvinist also understanding no one can believe the Gospel unless called by the Father and all whom the Father calls will believe. Being at peace with the mystery keeps the Calvinist from straying into hyper-Calvinism.

Really.... then how do you explain people like my sister that was Cerebral Palsy, or my child that died at childbirth, or someone in far away Polynesia who has never heard the gospel? Be honest with me Herald, if infants who died in childbirth or soon after, the feeble minded, and someone who has no access to scripture must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them, is there?

 

[webdog]

Webdog, there are many who claim to be Calvinists that do not hold to some part of the tulip, and to do so is not "inconsistent with their beliefs" anymore than a Baptist assembly that holds to closed communion is inconsistent with Baptist beliefs in general - just as it applies to those who hold open communion.

But you already knew this.

Your desire to garbage bag it all together and throw it all out has been well noted on the BB.

I suppose that there are some who would do the same with any non-cal.

You have no point as being baptist is not a systematic theology. TULIP is. To deny even one tenant is to deny it all. Of course you do not agree to that as its not flattering to admit to inconsistent beliefs, but I'm not here to flatter.

Ephesians 2 is often misread and misapplied because of basic questions not kept in mind.

What is the unmerited favor of God?

Is it the unmerited favor or God?

Is it the salvation in which the unmerited favor of God bestows?

How is that bestowed?

Does unregenerate human faith actually have any volition?

Does God allow ANY part of the sinful human nature (even human faith) to actually be a part of the new creation that eventually enters glory?

These questions are basic to understanding Ephesians 2:8,9

It isn't misread, it is read as to be forced into a doctrine. Salvation is the gift of God. Period. The greek supports it. Start believing it. Faith has no power. The object of ones faith does.

 

[webdog]

Really.... then how do you explain people like my sister that was Cerebral Palsy, or my child that died at childbirth, or someone in far away Polynesia who has never heard the gospel? Be honest with me Herald, if infants who died in childbirth or soon after, the feeble minded, and someone who has no access to scripture must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them, is there?

I admire your consistency. I believe you are dead wrong concerning a special dispensation of salvation for the mentally challenged and infants,, but like how you stick with your guns. You are helping me expose the inconsistent non cal's (since they cannot be considered true cal's)

 

[DrJamesAch]

And the Arminian or non-calvinist also understands these same things.

Calvinism only "understands" the "mystery between sovereignty and human responsibility" because they INVENTED THE MYSTERY.

Furthermore, if Calvinists claim to understand a mystery, then it really isn't a mystery. DUH:tonofbricks:

 

[DrJamesAch]

Really.... then how do you explain people like my sister that was Cerebral Palsy, or my child that died at childbirth, or someone in far away Polynesia who has never heard the gospel? Be honest with me Herald, if infants who died in childbirth or soon after, the feeble minded, and someone who has no access to scripture must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them, is there?

And THAT is the true essence of real honest core Calvinism. So-called "Hyper" Calvinism is really a Calvinist that allows the actual implications of general Calvinism to speak for itself. It doesn't deny the obvious conclusions that Calvinist theology leads to. The sad part is in those who are willing to accept its absurdities and not reject Calvinism altogether.

 

[Rippon]

Calvinism only "understands" the "mystery between sovereignty and human responsibility" because they INVENTED THE MYSTERY.

But Q maintains that non-Cals understand the mystery too.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And THAT is the true essence of real honest core Calvinism. So-called "Hyper" Calvinism is really a Calvinist that allows the actual implications of general Calvinism to speak for itself. It doesn't deny the obvious conclusions that Calvinist theology leads to. The sad part is in those who are willing to accept its absurdities and not reject Calvinism altogether.

I dont consider Doctrines of Grace absurd. I consider many "so called" pastors absurd & I consider people who go to church on Sunday & Monday thru Saturday act like secular people absurd, complacent & downright phony....but no I dont see human beings trying to put depth to their understanding of their salvation as absurd.

If we were to follow the leader, IE be like Christ, we would make it a point to know whats going on in our communities, indeed our Country & across the world. We would be doing meet up's with the poor, the disenfranchised, the sick, the unemployed, the addicted etc. Do we do that? Thats what in my opinion is absurd. More to the point....dishonest & hypocritical.

 

[Van]

Irrational Absurdity

We are now at eight pages and counting.

Hyper-Calvinists are consistent Calvinists, God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, making God the author of sin. He then punishes the lost for doing what was predestined, and if you do not accept that action demonstrates His glory, you have not been born again. Hyper-Calvinism 101

Calvinists (5 pointers) are inconsistent Calvinists, God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, but somehow, because of the mystery of God, that does not make His the author of sin.

Arminians accept that fallen man has no spiritual ability, [which is mistaken doctrine not found in the bible] but fix it with Prevenient Grace, so man can accept or reject, making his responsible for his sins.

Now that we have defined the three positions, lets return to the OP linked blog. Full of invention, full of assertions, and with no effort to support the fictional assertions being presented.

Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 where fallen men are entering heaven. The Calvinist response, why that verse does not mean what it says.

Unconditional Election is demonstrated false by 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where God chose you through faith in the truth. The Calvinist response, why that verse does not mean what it says.

Limited Atonement is demonstrated false by 1 John 2:2 where Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. The Calvinist response, why that verse does not mean what it says.

Irresistible Grace is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 where men who are entering heaven are blocked by false teachings. The Calvinist response, why that verse does not mean what it says.

 

[Tom Butler]

Really.... then how do you explain people like my sister that was Cerebral Palsy, or my child that died at childbirth, or someone in far away Polynesia who has never heard the gospel? Be honest with me Herald, if infants who died in childbirth or soon after, the feeble minded, and someone who has no access to scripture must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them, is there?

Here are a couple of Scripture verses that may help:

Matthew 18: 2-4, "And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, 'Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:13-15, "Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, 14 but Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.' 15 And he laid his hands on them and went away