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Esau I HATED!!!!!

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
I have never said that since "God is love", he can't hate. He doesn't hate His creation, whom He made in His image (God so loved THE WORLD...everything He created He found "good"), but He is righteous and hates sin, unless you are one of the calvinists who believe God is the cause and author of sin. You imply that God hates those who go to hell (Johnp has stated this, too), and God's love somehow fails if man does not choose Him. This is false.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
In the passages above...was it the sin itself or the people that sinned that was the wickedness that God hated?
What, my answers weren't clear enough?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
[qb] ]Yet often we find Calvinists wanting to justify “hate” by using Malachi 1 as an example of “hating the infant Esau”.
James said
Bob,

I can not speak for all, but I need no justifing to please. I just say...LOOK..there it is.

Others say..BUT...BUT...BUT...john 3...and and...LOVE..and...not hate...its..aaaw its ..love less...yeah that's it...and and and..its a nation...so you see..its not hate now...cuz its a nation...and...and ...and..did i say john 3:16?
Is this you clinging to that wrong view of "hate your parents children and family" text over John 3??

What about "Love your Neighbor as yourself and Love God" and clinging to a "right view" of that instead of "the ways to hate and get away with it"??

I keep pointing out that the "hate" you cling to on this subject is of the type already shown regarding "hating your parents".

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Jarthur001:
Now..can God hate?
The quotes that we give for God loving (from the Bible) all show God Loving PEOPLE and show Him weeping over LOST people (that would be the "wicked").

Since you sometimes agree with that - then how is it you turn this around with "can God hate" as in "hate PEOPLE" -- what OTHER kind of wicked people do you see besides LOST ones??

In Christ,

Bob
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Originally posted by webdog:
I have never said that since "God is love", he can't hate. He doesn't hate His creation, whom He made in His image (God so loved THE WORLD...everything He created He found "good"), but He is righteous and hates sin, unless you are one of the calvinists who believe God is the cause and author of sin. You imply that God hates those who go to hell (Johnp has stated this, too), and God's love somehow fails if man does not choose Him. This is false.
Hi webdog,

No i think it was texassky that said this..and i think it was texassky i 1st addressed...and i posted it again it my last post that it was texassky i had addressed.


As to the "author of sin"..what do you mean by that? I have told you my thoughts on sin before...but not that you believe that "God is the author of sin"...i just want to know what you mean when you use this phrase.

I imply? I point to verse. Webdog..you seem smart...tell me the picture you get in Paslms 50. Maybe you see something that i do not. Again..i pointed to verses when TesasSky said

"God is love...and thats it."
or what ever her words were.

When i point to those verse..you guys go off the wall. I implied nothing...i posted 40 some verses saying yes God can hate....and now I'm TWISTING things


I think this shows how far you are into your doctrine. Its not that i preach hate...but if you post that God hates evil...and sinners...and the wicked...and do nothing but post verse...you guys go crazy.

I have Lloyd telling me to repent...
Bob telling me to forget hate...that i can not believe both hate and love..
TS says i lie.....
you say its all false...

I POSTED VERSE...

it makes you wonder

In Christ...James
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> In the passages above...was it the sin itself or the people that sinned that was the wickedness that God hated?
What, my answers weren't clear enough? </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Webdog,


I did not type your name, But i did talk about your reply..

"As i said before...these only show that God can in deed HATE. It has taken many pages for you to say this one thing. The post was from a texasSky post that said..GOD IS LOVE....PLAIN AND SIMPLE. I said...he is more then just love. God can..and does hate."

so yes i saw it and you said something about it.


still waiting on rev and paslms

and...one more now...are sinners really people?
are "the wicked"..people?

thats all for now.


In Christ..James
 

Scott J

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />ScottJ
So Romans 9 is a lie? It clearly says that God hated Esau.
Calvinists "need" to twist the quote of Romans 9 as Paul quotes Malachi 1 -- such that God "hates Esau" before the infant was born. </font>[/QUOTE] Note who is twisting what. I was careful not to go beyond what the text very literally says... just as you were not careful about reading your assumptions into my statement.

The text says that God hated Esau. I think the context and text mean that God chose and loved Jacob and rejected or hated Esau before they were born. However, I didn't make that claim above. I simply pointed out that the text says that God hated Esau.

As though we can IGNORE the exegesis of both Romans 9 and Malachi 1 (the text being quoted)in an "any-eisegesis-goes-for-Calvinism" style of quote.
That is simply false. There is no eisegesis involved in letting the words mean what they mean in context. That is a ludicrous accusation.

Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone guilty of eisegesis.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />TexasSky
Romans 9 is a reference to an old testament text (Malachi 1). If you go back to a study bible and look up the old testament verse you discover that it reads that Esau was wicked, and Jacob was obedient. Esau did not care about the laws of God, Jacob did. It reads, in the old testament, that God rejected (and hated) Esau BECAUSE Esau rejected and hated God.
In fact Malachi 1 does not say that Esau was wicked it says the EDOM (the nation of Esau) was a "wicked people" because it is the NATION of Esau and Jacob (Edom and Israel) that is actually being addressed - NT the infant sons of Rebekkah!!

]quote]
Malach 1
God's Love for Jacob

1 The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi.
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob;
3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."

</font>[/QUOTE]Here we see a definition of hate as “Love Less” [/quote]
What we don't see here in spite of your attempts to diverge is the statement "I loved Esau less because" of something he did.

Mal 1:3 does not say "God hated Esau before he was born".
Romans 4 appears to. Paul was every bit as inspired in his use of Mal 1 as Malachi was when he penned it.

Your point is worse than meaningless. You would create a contradiction between Paul and Malachi for the purpose of dismissing the meaning of Romans 9 so that you can preserve your presupposed conclusion.

The text of Mal 1 deals with the nations of Israel vs Edom – Esau as vs 4 pointsout.
Maybe, maybe not. The text could clearly also refer to both the men and the nations they fathered.

OTOH, Romans 9 is dealing with the individuals... as clearly indicated by the references to their conception, birth, and mother.

It is the NATIONS that are being addressed in the examples above under the names of their founding father.
Maybe and in order to not get further off the subject, I won't argue. None the less, that is not the case contextually in Romans 9.

I do understand that this would be a very convenient argument for you if it actually applied... but it doesn't. Paul supplies the context and it isn't nations at that point in Romans 9. Verses 6 & 7 provide a transition between the nation and individuals who are "of Israel". Verse 8 dilineates between the children of the flesh and the children of promise. Note that it doesn't mention that they were one or the other by their own free will choice but goes directly into a case of how God accomplished His "purpose according to His election/choice".

Verses 11 and 12 directly declares that "not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

You have to engage in eisegesis yourself to make that say anything other than God chose Jacob rather than Esau to receive His promise.

As you like to say, this really isn't hard. You don't have to squirm and deny and evade and twist... all you have to do is let the words say what they say.

God hated Esau... and Esau like all sinners deserved it (even if you define "hate" as "loved less"). But moreover, Jacob deserved to be hated also. He was a thief and a deceiver.

While I have the interesting opening that you have given: Do you really believe that God loves some more than others? That is an interesting claim compared to the arguments you and others on your side have made.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QB]
Originally posted by BobRyan:
[qb] ]Yet often we find Calvinists wanting to justify “hate” by using Malachi 1 as an example of “hating the infant Esau”.
James said
Bob,

I can not speak for all, but I need no justifing to please. I just say...LOOK..there it is.

Others say..BUT...BUT...BUT...john 3...and and...LOVE..and...not hate...its..aaaw its ..love less...yeah that's it...and and and..its a nation...so you see..its not hate now...cuz its a nation...and...and ...and..did i say john 3:16?
Is this you clinging to that wrong view of "hate your parents children and family" text over John 3??
*********************
let me spell it out for you bob. Anytime someone post a verse that shows God hates sins, sinners...or that he has Hid holy wrath on their life...you post john 3:16...which does not address it. John 3:16 shows Gods great Love for mankind that he came. It does not address his wrath...now does it?


What about "Love your Neighbor as yourself and Love God" and clinging to a "right view" of that instead of "the ways to hate and get away with it"??
**********************
SEE?? God has great love. I say this over and over. You say to me..."you can't have it both ways" I can't...but God can. how about those apples?

I keep pointing out that the "hate" you cling to on this subject is of the type already shown regarding "hating your parents".
**********************
You keep pointing..and changing the meaning...and lets go to JOHN 3:16....which BTW is a great verse. You post Romans 9 is a nation...THAT is not the point BOB. Nation...man...GOD HATES the subject.. right? can HE? yes he can

i know ....i know...john 3:16


In Christ..James
 

Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by TexasSky:
Esau was a rebellious man. God did not hate him first, causing him to become rebellious. God hated his behavior after he became rebellious.
Excellent point.

One of the problems with this verse interpretation is that the Hebrew word "sane" (translated "hate") does not carry a context of withholding love. However, our English word "hate" carries a "withholding of love" connotation. There is nothing in this scripture, when read in the non-English source texts, that suggest that God did not love Esau.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Originally posted by Scott J:
Note who is twisting what. I was careful not to go beyond what the text very literally says... just as you were not careful about reading your assumptions into my statement.

Scott,


The problem is, When Bob reads he will come across one word...like "hate"...or "election"...and then he forgets the other words..and runs to his "E" file folder and looks for that "election file" and post the same post same verse he has for 3 months.

One or two times i sat why he dropped the "arminian" garb and he made some good replies. This hardly ever happens....for he is to much into this doctrine.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jarthur001:
Now..can God hate?
The quotes that we give for God loving (from the Bible) all show God Loving PEOPLE and show Him weeping over LOST people (that would be the "wicked").

Since you sometimes agree with that - then how is it you turn this around with "can God hate" as in "hate PEOPLE" -- what OTHER kind of wicked people do you see besides LOST ones??

In Christ,

Bob
</font>[/QUOTE]Hi ya Bob,


Notice you still will not say it. Its hard to say..is it not? I really mean it. But its there for us to read.

As to the lost. I think all of us is wicked...don't you? Even in the passage we have looked at we see this. rom 9..and mal 1,2,3 say BOTH nations were wicked. yet God loved one. why? ask God why

But that is the point of romans 9. God can do as he wishes...not because the JEWS were Good. Both were evil. The point was not to show hate..its to show the love of the nation that God choose.


In Christ...James
 

johnp.

New Member
I have Lloyd telling me to repent... :cool:

Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone guilty of eisegesis. :cool:

The text could clearly also refer to both the men and the nations they fathered.
Like father like son.
There is nothing in this scripture, when read in the non-English source texts, that suggest that God did not love Esau.
God can't talkie the English. HaHa! The word the Word uses cannot be understood unless we learn other languages. Some God. So the bible's authority is zeroed but such a denial of English thwarts God's will: so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. As long as you know Greek and Hebrew. :cool: And we can know the Greek and the Hebrew but we are the 1% of Christianity that has been blessed by the tools.

john.
 

Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by johnp.:
God can't talkie the English. HaHa! The word the Word uses cannot be understood unless we learn other languages. Some God.

Last time I checked, God wasn't in the traslation business. Sane and "hate" are similar, but not exact in meaning. This is a common translation issue. Agape and "love" are similar, but not exact. Unless you're a KJVOist, this should not be new news to you.
And we can know the Greek and the Hebrew but we are the 1% of Christianity that has been blessed by the tools.
So according to you, God can't speak Hebrew. Sorry, you can choose to accept a lie by choosing to be ignorant. You remain wrong nonetheless.
 

johnp.

New Member
Hello Johnv.
Sane and "hate" are similar, but not exact in meaning.
Doesn't mean love does it? We have been here before are we going to lose you at the same place this time?
Last time I checked, God wasn't in the traslation business.
What this again still saying the bible can't be trusted and that the same as last time and I reject your words and disdain them.
Sorry, you can choose to accept a lie by choosing to be ignorant.
There as bold as brass you are: RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." And that is the lie? :cool: By the way did you hear what happened to Edom? Where are they these days? Where's Jacob?

john.
 

Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by johnp.:
Doesn't mean love does it? We have been here before are we going to lose you at the same place this time?

Yes, we've been there before, and you failed to make your point. I wasn't talking about love. I was talking about sane. You're saying sane doesn't mean sane. In fact, sane has nothing to do with love.
What this again still saying the bible can't be trusted and that the same as last time and I reject your words and disdain them.

You're saying the Bible in Hebrew cannot be trusted. Your choice if you choose to have disdain for scripture.
By the way did you hear what happened to Edom? Where are they these days? Where's Jacob?
None of that has anything to do with the Hebrew word sane.
 

johnp.

New Member
Hello Johnv.
Yes, we've been there before, and you failed to make your point.
Oh no I made my point when you mistakenly said that the Greek was the Hebrew and it left a doubt in my mind as to your qualifications as an expert on biblical manuscripts in their original languages. You have no degree have you? You have warrant to teach others what is not true.
I wasn't talking about love.
Found neutral have you?
I wasn't talking about love. I was talking about sane. You're saying sane doesn't mean sane. In fact, sane has nothing to do with love.
You are preaching to the converted mate only fools walk in where angels fear to tread.
You're saying the Bible in Hebrew cannot be trusted. Your choice if you choose to have disdain for scripture.
The Dutch have reduced those two sentences into one word: poppycock. :cool:
None of that has anything to do with the Hebrew word sane.
I see you heard what happened to Edom then. :cool: As I see it, unlike you, it's all academic you see, action speaks louder than words. See what happened and your context is found in history. :cool: Where's Jacob?

john.
 

Scott J

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by johnp.:
God can't talkie the English. HaHa! The word the Word uses cannot be understood unless we learn other languages. Some God.

Last time I checked, God wasn't in the traslation business. Sane and "hate" are similar, but not exact in meaning. This is a common translation issue. Agape and "love" are similar, but not exact. Unless you're a KJVOist, this should not be new news to you.
And we can know the Greek and the Hebrew but we are the 1% of Christianity that has been blessed by the tools.
So according to you, God can't speak Hebrew. Sorry, you can choose to accept a lie by choosing to be ignorant. You remain wrong nonetheless.
</font>[/QUOTE]This whole point is moot. Whether you translate the Hebrew word as "hate" or not, you still have to deal with the Greek word.

Even IF the Greek word means "loved less" or "didn't choose" or whatever lighter definition you might apply rather than "hate", the fact remains that God chose one brother to be a patriarch rather than the other before they had done any good or evil.

God's grace is demonstrated in Romans 9 to NOT be contingent upon a person's actions or their asking for it.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Hi Johnv,

Before i reply, I would like a better understanding of your point.

You state...
"I wasn't talking about love. I was talking about sane. You're saying sane doesn't mean sane. In fact, sane has nothing to do with love."

Are you saying the best way to read this is that one nation is "sane" and the other is "insane"? Please do not take this the wrong way. I am just trying to see your point. Any help along these lines of understanding I would glady enjoy.


In Christ...James
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Originally posted by Scott J:

Even IF the Greek word means "loved less" or "didn't choose" or whatever lighter definition you might apply rather than "hate", the fact remains that God chose one brother to be a patriarch rather than the other before they had done any good or evil.

God's grace is demonstrated in Romans 9 to NOT be contingent upon a person's actions or their asking for it.
Thank you Scott...i agree 100% How changing the word or the subject has anything to do with the context...beats me. It could have read...God loves red shirts...and hates blue shirts....and this would still be in context of the passage. Then one could say God hates some shirts.

Now you could argue..no no...its talking about colors here...not shirts. Ok fine...then God hates some colors.

wait...its not hate its love less...
ok then God loves some colors less then others.

wait in the greek the word means shoes.
ok then..God hates blue shoes

no no..i mean......


No one attacks the word "love" in this passage. Its the would hate that people hate. In context if you use "love"...then the "other word"...has to be the other side of love. Paul KNOW when he wrote this passage some would think it sounds unfair. So that is why Paul addressed this unfairness.

Now if you change the word to "paint" a better picture ...so that it seems all is fair...then Pauls words were not needed. Also...this would not fit context of mercy..no mercy.


In Christ...James
 

Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by johnp.:
Oh no I made my point when you mistakenly said that the Greek was the Hebrew and it left a doubt in my mind as to your qualifications as an expert on biblical manuscripts in their original languages.

I've been clear about the Hebrew source word sane in the masoric, which does not infer a withholding of love.
You have no degree have you? You have warrant to teach others what is not true.

In fact, I do have a degree. A B.A. with an emphasis in biblical history. Now, it is you who is teaching that which is not true when you insist that sane has an implication of withholding of love. You additionally adhere to untruth when you claim that God did not love Esau.
You are preaching to the converted mate only fools walk in where angels fear to tread.

Then you must be in agreement that scripture does not assert that God did not love Esau.
The Dutch have reduced those two sentences into one word: poppycock.

I guess you didn't know I'm somewhat fluent in Dutch. The word is pappekak. However, it still stands that your contention is that we cannot trust the Hebrew OT, and that God couldn't communicate in Hebrew.
As I see it, unlike you, it's all academic you see, action speaks louder than words. See what happened and your context is found in history. :cool: Where's Jacob?
Your Edom example does not support your scripturally false contention that God withheld love from Esau, either by inference or context. It inferrs that God bestowed upon one his grace, while withholding it from another. But grace is not the issue here (indeed, God does not give grace to all, nor does He do so in like manner).
Originally posted by Jarthur001:
Are you saying the best way to read this is that one nation is "sane" and the other is "insane"?
Uhhh. Not exactly. The discussion revolves around the verse that says "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated". There's a presumption by some that this verse says God did not love Esau. But, in the Hebrew, the word translated "hate" is sane (pronounced saw-nay). Sane carried no inference of withholding love, as is sometimes implied when using the word in English.
 
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