Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[HankD]

I believe the Kingdom is purely spiritual since flesh and blood cannot inherit it.

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50) (KJV 1900)

We will not be flesh and blood for eternity.

We will be like Jesus.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[HankD]

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, do you suppose Jesus changed into his heavenly body in his own Rapture, just as believers will in their Rapture?

He is no longer flesh and blood but a resurrected body of flesh and bones.

as resurrected individuals we will be alive by the power of the Spirit not oxygenated blood.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks for your replies. Jesus presently reigns over earth from David's Throne in Heavenly Jerusalem above. Peter said:

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:30–31) (KJV 1900)

Sorry, this passage does not prove what you want it to prove. Peter is merely using it to prove that Jesus had a physical resurrection as prophesied. That is because a king must have a physical body before He can rule from a physical throne. It says nothing about Jesus reigning over David's kingdom.

And Paul says he must rule until the resurrection on the last day.

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:24–26) (KJV 1900)

Prove to me that this is David's throne and not the throne of the Kingdom of God. This chapter does not mention David. In fact, the whole book of 1 Cor. does not mention David. Until you learn that context is vital in interpretation, you will likewise fail in your efforts to convince.

Jesus then moves the kingdom into the New Heavens and Earth.

““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

Well of course! This passage is about the future Kingdom on earth, the throne of David. And Christ (who is speaking) compares it to His throne in Heaven, that of the Kingdom of God. You have completely failed to prove anything here except that your interpretation is not literal.

 

[1689Dave]

Sorry, this passage does not prove what you want it to prove. Peter is merely using it to prove that Jesus had a physical resurrection as prophesied. That is because a king must have a physical body before He can rule from a physical throne. It says nothing about Jesus c

Prove to me that this is David's throne and not the throne of the Kingdom of God. This chapter does not mention David. In fact, the whole book of 1 Cor. does not mention David. Until you learn that context is vital in interpretation, you will likewise fail in your efforts to convince.

Well of course! This passage is about the future Kingdom on earth, the throne of David. And Christ (who is speaking) compares it to His throne in Heaven, that of the Kingdom of God. You have completely failed to prove anything here except that your interpretation is not literal.

It's like Jesus said. His kingdom comes without observation, is within you, it is not of this world, and unless a person is born again, they cannot see it.

 

[John of Japan]

It's like Jesus said. His kingdom comes without observation, is within you, it is not of this world, and unless a person is born again, they cannot see it.

Yes, that's specifically the Kingdom of God, not the throne of David. Read the passage again.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes, that's specifically the Kingdom of God, not the throne of David. Read the passage again.

But Jesus is where now? Doing what? On whose Throne? Remember David's Throne is God's Throne.

“Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.” 1 Kings 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.” 1 Chronicles 29:23 (KJV 1900)

 

[TCassidy]

I am sorry but your post reveals your ignorance about these issues. When you actually know what these people believe get back to us.

Common MO of the uninformed. The Uninformed: "Here is what you believe." Me: "Uh, no, I don't." The Uninformed: "Yes you do. You have to. That is the only way I can claim my false narrative is factual." Me: "Sorry, but your "factual narrative" is sadly lacking in facts."

You can say I'm wrong, but until you prove your point with scripture, it's merely opinion.

Until you can post quotes from the Pre-mil, A-mil, or Post-mil adherents here it is merely your uninformed opinion.

This is very much like your "except doesn't mean except" argument.

 

[1689Dave]

Until you can post quotes from the Pre-mil, A-mil, or Post-mil adherents here it is merely your uninformed opinion.

Bible doesn't count?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks for your replies. Jesus presently reigns over earth from David's Throne in Heavenly Jerusalem above. Peter said:

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:30–31) (KJV 1900)

And Paul says he must rule until the resurrection on the last day.

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:24–26) (KJV 1900)

Jesus then moves the kingdom into the New Heavens and Earth.

““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

That sounds like Amillennialism to me.

 

[TCassidy]

Bible doesn't count?

Please try to pay attention. You accused PEOPLE of believing something they don't believe. Nowhere in the bible will you find a verse that says "John of Japan believes the Kingdom is only physical."

 

[1689Dave]

Please try to pay attention. You accused PEOPLE of believing something they don't believe. Nowhere in the bible will you find a verse that says "John of Japan believes the Kingdom is only physical."

I do not accuse anyone of anything. Jesus says his kingdom is spiritual. He does not say it is, or ever will be physical. I simply point this out.

 

[1689Dave]

That sounds like Amillennialism to me.

It is Amillennialism without the visible institutional church. And especially without the Church State.

 

[TCassidy]

I do not accuse anyone of anything. Jesus says his kingdom is spiritual. He does not say it is, or ever will be physical. I simply point this out.

That is a falsehood. Your OP states:

They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of spiritual.

That is what you said. Now you are denying you said what we can all go back to the OP and read for ourselves?

You made a claim. You have been called on that false claim and you are, once again, obfuscating to try to get out of being held accountable for your falsehood.

Your typical MO.

 

[John of Japan]

But Jesus is where now? Doing what? On whose Throne? Remember David's Throne is God's Throne.

“Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.” 1 Kings 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.” 1 Chronicles 29:23 (KJV 1900)

No, David's throne is David's throne. That's plain English. You can't change meaning in the Bible in that way without becoming Humpty Dumpty as portrayed by Lewis Carroll:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."
(Through the Looking Glass, Chapter 6)

 

[1689Dave]

No, David's throne is David's throne. That's plain English. You can't change meaning in the Bible in that way without becoming Humpty Dumpty as portrayed by Lewis Carroll:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."
(Through the Looking Glass, Chapter 6)

How do you refute the scriptures that say David's throne is God's throne? Quoted above?

 

[1689Dave]

That is a falsehood. Your OP states:

That is because they do.....

 

[John of Japan]

How do you refute the scriptures that say David's throne is God's throne? Quoted above?

You did not give "scriptures." You gave two verses, one of which has nothing to do with David's throne.

Your other verse was 1 Chronicles 29:23, “Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.” This might prove your point, but you did not say how, so what do you want me to say?

As for refuting them, I don't want to refute the Bible. I want to refute you, but you don't give any statements for me to refute.

 

[TCassidy]

That is because they do.....

Prove it. Post a quote that proves your assertion.

 

[John of Japan]

My son just pointed out to me that to say the Kingdom of God is only spiritual and not physical is a false dichotomy. How could it be manifested in the physical world as it is if it is only spiritual? And how can something be spiritual in such a way that it rules out the physical? As I've pointed out on this thread, we tread a line close to Gnosticism if we say that the physical is ergo, never spiritual. Gnosticism teaches that the physical is evil. We don't want to go there.

So to say that the millennial throne of Jesus (the "throne of David") is physical but not spiritual is simply wrong. It is both.

 

[1689Dave]

Prove it. Post a quote that proves your assertion.

There is no scripture to prove a physical kingdom. But many proving it is spiritual.

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)