Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Yeshua1]

I believe every popular eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, (who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years).


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. Creating a physical "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

Jesus will set up His Kingdom here upon the earth, and it will be a literal one,as in the nations and the people of the earth shall see Him here!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If you are serious with this post, and not totally joking, your mistake is equating the English world "world" with the Greek word kosmos in this context. They are two different languages, and one word in one language rarely means exactly the same in another.

My post was not serious, but had a serious point, which you have brought out for me splendidly.

 

[Darrell C]

God fulfills all of these prophecies in earth since Christ's first advent, and in heaven.

The singular Prophecy not fulfilled is the Return of Christ.

I showed you the Supper of the Great God, and how that does not correlate to the destruction of God's enemies at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. I showed you how Christ taught that when He returned, it would be as in the days of Noah and Lot. The unbelieving destroyed physically, the believing left alive.

Just tell me why Revelation 20 does not teach a thousand year period after Christ's REturn.

But there cannot ever be a physical kingdom on earth.

Sure there can. Prophecy demands it.

You fail to distinguish between the Prophecy of Christ's Return and the Prophecy of the end of the Millennial Kingdom:


Revelation 20:7-11
King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Nothing there that suggests Christ returns at this time. Nothing there to suggest this is the time of the Supper of the Great God. It is a distinct event to the events of Christ's Return and the Millennial Kingdom.

A physical Millennium is impossible because Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world.

And it never will be, that is why it is called...

...the Kingdom of God.

First, Christ teaches that He went to receive a Kingdom, and, that when He returns, He will have that Kingdom. So we distinguish (again, lol) between the economy in place during Christ's Ministry and the economy in place right now. God's Kingdom has always existed in the hearts of believers, but, that is distinguished from the Kingdom that is the spiritual rule and reign of God in the Body of Christ today. That is distinguished from the Kingdom which will be physical, which will still not be...of this world.

Understand?

The Sovereignty of Christ isn't based on a large army of men that can defend Him. He is the Lord of Hosts and yet not even Angels were called upon to defend Him. He dealt with an issue (Him being a King) that was posed in a physical context, and His Kingdom is not based on the physical. It is based on the fact that He is God, and has no need to establish a Kingdom as men do.

In the New World, there is no sin and death as the physical millennium has.

This is true.

And in the New heavens and Earth...there is no monetary system.

And besides these two worlds. the present evil world and the world to come, scripture knows of no other age.

Matthew 12:31-32
King James Version (KJV)

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


The Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost will not be relevant to the Eternal State.

The Age that is to come next is the Millennial Kingdom, as clearly taught in Revelation 20, and in Old and New Testament Prophecy.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

ALL Millennial theories try to make Christ's kingdom physical, of this world.

Once again you post your unsupported assertion in spite of the facts, and in violation of your own OP.

Post quotes from a-mils, pre-mils, or post-mils who say that Christ's Kingdom is physical only.

You have been called on this several times. Time to put up or shut up.

 

[1689Dave]

Once again you post your unsupported assertion in spite of the facts, and in violation of your own OP.

Post quotes from a-mils, pre-mils, or post-mils who say that Christ's Kingdom is physical only.

Why not quote the bible? I've already shown where all physical kingdom theories are wrong.

 

[1689Dave]

The singular Prophecy not fulfilled is the Return of Christ.

Notice I said "fulfills" as in not complete yet.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus will set up His Kingdom here upon the earth, and it will be a literal one,as in the nations and the people of the earth shall see Him here!

Already done.....Christendom fulfills the promise to Abraham.

 

[TCassidy]

Why not quote the bible? I've already shown where all physical kingdom theories are wrong.

Because you claimed in the OP

They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of spiritual.

"They" meaning proponents of pre-a-post mil.

So post where they said the Kingdom of God is only physical. You made the assertion but now, when called on it, you refuse to post your evidence. Were you making it up? If you were telling the truth you could post the quotes, but since you can't, I can only assume you made it up.

Why not quote the bible?

Because you said it, not the bible. Post your evidence that a pre-a-post mil says the Kingdom is only physical.

I've already shown where all physical kingdom theories are wrong.

You have not shown where anyone has stated that the kingdom is only physical. You have erected a falsehood, a strawman argument.

I suggest you read the Baptist Board rules. Here, I will help you: Terms of Service and Rules | Baptist Christian Forums

I draw your attention to #5.

5. No trolling. Trolling consists of provoking large volumes of responses by posting absurdities, deliberately offensive insults, etc.

You have posted an absurdity in order to get a large volume of responses.

 

[1689Dave]

First, Dave, I would point out you have again completely ignored the points and Scripture given which show that a physical Kingdom is coming. You are going to need to learn to address the points of your antagonist if you want anyone to take you seriously, because if you don't, all you can expect is the derision such as you have received in this thread. Be ready to give an answer to any man, my friend.

There are two ages in scripture. This present evil age and the age to come. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world (age). so that rules out one of them. All that remains is the world (age) to come. And it is perfect without sin or death as your idea of a Millennium has. This alone refutes every other rebuttal you present.

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Now, I ask you one question here: would anyone doubt that John the Baptist was part of the Kingdom that is the spiritual rule and reign of God?
No, the Kingdom of God was Physical in the OT. The New Covenant Kingdom shed all of the unbelievers, and became full of the Holy Spirit.

Christ again distinguishes between the Kingdom of God we know existed in the hearts of men and the distinct Kingdom to come:

Jesus will return and sit on his own throne in the New Heavens and earth. Still David's Throne because that too is God's Throne. ““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

So at this point we have two Kingdoms in view, let's look at the third (which is actually the first Kingdom made known to Israel):

““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

The Nobleman is Christ, Who has at this time gone into a "far country" to receive for Himself a Kingdom...and to return. Something to notice in the parable is that money is involved, and that there is implication of a continuing money system:

Metaphor...........

This speaks of Christ returning and establishing the Kingdom which is physical, which will have a monetary system:

Metaphor...........

It is unlikely we can apply a monetary system, or, the ruling over of cities...to the Eternal State. But, we can apply it to the Millennial Kingdom.
Metaphor...........

Nor is it likely this...

...applies to the Eternal State:


We see that Kingdom in Revelation:

Look again at the passages above, see the concept of Christ returning and giving authority to men to rule? See the thousand years where the Tribulation Martyrs rule with Christ?

Those of us who are futurist always wonder, first, how men can nullify such clear teachings, and secondly, how they they can believe this present existence is the Kingdom ruled by Christ (which is the first Kingdom we looked at and began at Pentecost), and third, how His return which is spoken of and accompanied by a physical existence in both Old and New Testament Prophecy...is denied.

But you give insight to that: it is through ignoring the Scriptures presented to you. So address the points and Scripture, and you will correct the error you have embraced.


Continued...

Jesus kingdom is Eternal, not merely 1000 years............ BTW Thanks for keeping it interesting.

 

[1689Dave]

You have posted an absurdity in order to get a large volume of responses.

God knows my heart, you can only assume I'm doing what you would do if you did the same. But our motives differ greatly.

 

[TCassidy]

God knows my heart, you can only assume I'm doing what you would do if you did the same. But our motives differ greatly.

You have, repeatedly, refused to post any quotes supporting your assertion regarding what pre-a-post mils believe. Therefore our only conclusion is that you are being dishonest with your claims in the OP. Therefore your OP is, by definition, trolling, and a violation of the Baptist Board rules.

So, either post the quotes from pre-a-post mils or admit you can't, and I will edit the OP, Title, and your posts where you restate the falsehood of the OP.

 

[1689Dave]

Let me try again. I asked you to prove to me that something spiritual cannot also be physical. You simply quoted a verse and bolded "My kingdom is not of this world." Neither of the words "physical" (or "fleshly") or "spiritual" are in that verse. So tell me how that verse proves your point.

Thanks for asking. But I cannot answer that. It is not in scripture. You cannot see the Kingdom of God because it is not physical. But you are carrying it's message and presence to the far ends of the earth every time you preach. You can't see the kingdom, but see its results however. Look at how much better things are around the world as a result of the Kingdom spreading throughout christendom........

 

[1689Dave]

You have, repeatedly, refused to post any quotes supporting your assertion regarding what pre-a-post mils believe.

I can only speak where the bible speaks, and remain silent where it remains silent. Can you answer your own question? If so, share it so I can learn about it.

 

[Revmitchell]

Why not quote the bible? I've already shown where all physical kingdom theories are wrong.

You still have not proven that everyone you accuse of believibg that mess actuslly does believe that. You have engaged in falsely maligning others without any evidence. Your position here is a strawman quite regular for you crabby

 

[TCassidy]

I can only speak where the bible speaks, and remain silent where it remains silent. Can you answer your own question? If so, share it so I can learn about it.

So you admit you told an untruth in the OP when you claimed "They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of spiritual."

Fine. You admit the thread is trolling, in violation of the BB rules.

This thread is now locked pending Admin Council decision.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

And going to stay locked for the while.