Eschatology Agnostics

[asterisktom]

Unfortunately, I do understand Preterism, which is clearly outside the pale of logic as the problem with saying that there is no Jew nor Greek and no male nor female.

No, my friend, you do not understand it. Not if this is one of your go-to verses.

Here is the "no male or female" passage in context (one of several similar passages):

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:26-28

Paul is speaking here of wall of division having come down (betweens Jews and Gentiles) and also that, as Christians we are all unified. Male and female distinctions meant a lot in the Old Covenant. You even see some of it in the transition period of the New Testament.

Along these same lines is 2 Cor. 5;16:

"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

 

[church mouse guy]

Yes, but that is exactly how I arrived at preterism. I did what I wrote about in the OP. For a long time I took a break from my many commentaries and tried to study out the words and the connections with the help of concordances (and even concordances at times reveal their biases by how they group shades of - assumed - meanings).

So who is it that is not permitting this view? You? The majority of modern Christendom? No doubt. But they have been taught by outside influences not to connect the dots that are right there in their Bibles.

No, my friend, you do not understand it. Not if this is one of your go-to verses.

Here is the "no male or female" passage in context (one of several similar passages):

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:26-28

Paul is speaking here of wall of division having come down (betweens Jews and Gentiles) and also that, as Christians we are all unified. Male and female distinctions meant a lot in the Old Covenant. You even see some of it in the transition period of the New Testament.

Along these same lines is 2 Cor. 5;16:

"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

Your side quoted the verse, not me. I merely stated that if you were going to use that verse to say that there are no Jews, then that would mean that are no men by your logic. Wake up and smell the coffee. If there are no Jews, why was there a holocaust?

 

[asterisktom]

Your side quoted the verse, not me. I merely stated that if you were going to use that verse to say that there are no Jews, then that would mean that are no men by your logic. Wake up and smell the coffee. If there are no Jews, why was there a holocaust?

I believe you are not thinking over these posts carefully enough. It was indeed you that first brought up the "no longer male nor female", Jews, etc. You had written:

"Like the notion that there are no more Jews because there is neither Jew nor Greek--do you say there is only one sex because there is no more male nor female--that sounds like same-sex then by the same logic."

Did you even read my response as to why and how Paul wrote there are no longer Jews? It is one thing to disagree with another. I accept that. But one should at least acknowledge that the other view has been presented. Just calling it illogical is not an answer at all.

 

[Lodic]

And what church fathers do you reference?

Although some claim that the early church had the same futuristic view that is popular today, there is a lack of clear historical documentation to support this claim.

Clement of Alexandria placed the Abomination of Desolation (Daniel's 70th Week) in the time of Nero. Clement of Rome had the same view regarding the Abomination of Desolation. Tertullian was a preterist in his interpretations of Zechariah 14:4. Other early writers who had the preterist view include Eusebius, Athanasius, Origen, and Melito. I highly recommend "The Early Church and the End of the World" by Francis X. Gumerlock.

 

[church mouse guy]

I believe you are not thinking over these posts carefully enough. It was indeed you that first brought up the "no longer male nor female", Jews, etc. You had written:

"Like the notion that there are no more Jews because there is neither Jew nor Greek--do you say there is only one sex because there is no more male nor female--that sounds like same-sex then by the same logic."

Did you even read my response as to why and how Paul wrote there are no longer Jews? It is one thing to disagree with another. I accept that. But one should at least acknowledge that the other view has been presented. Just calling it illogical is not an answer at all.

No, I did not bring up the verse. Your side brought up the verse. I just looked at the entire verse, which Preterism cannot do because it is taking a text out of context. If you want anyone to agree with you that there are no longer Jew and Greek, then you are going to have to agree that there are no longer slave and free and that there are no longer male and female that we are all the same-sex. Preterists really should stop using that verse.

The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans was just one of many destructions of Jerusalem and Israel over the centuries. It was no big deal and does not fit the criteria of the return of Christ. The Jews went into slavery with the Romans and were also dispersed throughout the world, as you know. There have been many attempts to murder all the Jews, the Holocaust being one of the last major attempts by the Germans, but Stalin was trying to start a huge holocaust in Russia but he died first. Here in the USA for the last two hundred years we have endured the Black Israelites, a group of blacks who claim that they are the true Jews, just as you yourself do, apparently.

 

[asterisktom]

No, I did not bring up the verse. Your side brought up the verse. I just looked at the entire verse, which Preterism cannot do because it is taking a text out of context. If you want anyone to agree with you that there are no longer Jew and Greek, then you are going to have to agree that there are no longer slave and free and that there are no longer male and female that we are all the same-sex. Preterists really should stop using that verse.

The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans was just one of many destructions of Jerusalem and Israel over the centuries. It was no big deal and does not fit the criteria of the return of Christ. The Jews went into slavery with the Romans and were also dispersed throughout the world, as you know. There have been many attempts to murder all the Jews, the Holocaust being one of the last major attempts by the Germans, but Stalin was trying to start a huge holocaust in Russia but he died first. Here in the USA for the last two hundred years we have endured the Black Israelites, a group of blacks who claim that they are the true Jews, just as you yourself do, apparently.

OK, you lost me here ... on several points. But, whatever.

 

[Lodic]

No, I did not bring up the verse. Your side brought up the verse. I just looked at the entire verse, which Preterism cannot do because it is taking a text out of context. If you want anyone to agree with you that there are no longer Jew and Greek, then you are going to have to agree that there are no longer slave and free and that there are no longer male and female that we are all the same-sex. Preterists really should stop using that verse.

The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans was just one of many destructions of Jerusalem and Israel over the centuries. It was no big deal and does not fit the criteria of the return of Christ. The Jews went into slavery with the Romans and were also dispersed throughout the world, as you know. There have been many attempts to murder all the Jews, the Holocaust being one of the last major attempts by the Germans, but Stalin was trying to start a huge holocaust in Russia but he died first. Here in the USA for the last two hundred years we have endured the Black Israelites, a group of blacks who claim that they are the true Jews, just as you yourself do, apparently.

If the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 truly was "no big deal", why did Jesus bother to predict it? You seem to have trouble grasping what Paul's comments about how there is no Jew nor Greek, male nor female, etc. in Christ. Of course these distinctions exist. Paul is saying that it doesn't matter whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, man or woman, slave or free - to be in Christ. A slave who is in Christ is actually more free than a free man without Christ, because the "free man" is still enslaved to sin.
According to Paul, the true Jew / true Israelite is the one who is in Christ. Consider just these passages from Romans - 2:26-29; 9:6-9; 10:12-13; 11:25-27. I could go on with others, but thought sticking with just one book would be easier.

If I may ask, do you believe there is one "people of God" or two?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why not "full" preterism? Is it so important to believe in a physical return of Christ? I thought the main thing is that we place our faith in Christ Jesus. It's not like they are from a cult. Just a different eschatological view.

The physical and bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the future bodily resurrection of the saints ahs always been seen as being a Cardinal doctrine of Christianity!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, but that is exactly how I arrived at preterism. I did what I wrote about in the OP. For a long time I took a break from my many commentaries and tried to study out the words and the connections with the help of concordances (and even concordances at times reveal their biases by how they group shades of - assumed - meanings).

So who is it that is not permitting this view? You? The majority of modern Christendom? No doubt. But they have been taught by outside influences not to connect the dots that are right there in their Bibles.

When did the Body of Christ experience the physical resurrection then in history?

 

[Lodic]

The physical and bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the future bodily resurrection of the saints ahs always been seen as being a Cardinal doctrine of Christianity!

Christianity is based on the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Full Preterists completely agree with that. The future bodily resurrection of the saints may be a historic view, but it's not a "salvation" issue.

 

[Yeshua1]

Unfortunately, I do understand Preterism, which is clearly outside the pale of logic as the problem with saying that there is no Jew nor Greek and no male nor female.

Worse than that, as it exists outside of Orthodox Christian, has always been regarded as heresy....

 

[Lodic]

Worse than that, as it exists outside of Orthodox Christian, has always been regarded as heresy....

Can you support that claim with any writings from the early Church Fathers? Preterism has always been an orthodox view.

 

[Yeshua1]

2 John 1:9 is about following the teachings of Christ, and walking according to His commandments. This has nothing to do with one's eschatological views. That could become a slippery slope regarding anyone who has a different view of any doctrine.
Acts 1:11, 1 John 3:2 and Titus 2:13 are just a matter of interpretation as to how Christ will return. Again, not a "Salvation" of "Faith" issue.
Revelation 1:7 is also a matter of interpretation, but in this case I actually agree with Full Preterism. The language makes it clear that this refers to His coming in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70. I don't believe this refers to the 2nd Coming, because Jesus didn't literally come, but executed judgment. The phrase "every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him" is a clear reference to Israel, who cried out for His crucifixion. "The earth" is better translated as "the land", meaning "land of Israel". The same Greek word was used in Luke 2 when Augustus had a census taken of the land.

With so many different views of the End Times, why single Full Preterists out as heretics? Why not also include Partial Preterists in the same camp as Full Preterists? I apologize for coming on rather strongly, but I really believe the only thing that determines whether one is a True Believer is whether he follows Christ.

National Israel endures the Great tribulation in order to be made ready to meet the coming of Jesus, as they will receive Him as King/Messiah then, and the nation will be spiritual reborn in a day back unto God, as prophesied by Ezekiel!

 

[Yeshua1]

Revelation 1:7 refers specifically to those who had Him killed.

They will mourn over Him, as they will be convicted and turn to him to get saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you support that claim with any writings from the early Church Fathers? Preterism has always been an orthodox view.

NOT the version that claims second coming already happened!

 

[Yeshua1]

Christianity is based on the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Full Preterists completely agree with that. The future bodily resurrection of the saints may be a historic view, but it's not a "salvation" issue.

Its also based upon us being physically resurrected at time of the second coming!

 

[Lodic]

National Israel endures the Great tribulation in order to be made ready to meet the coming of Jesus, as they will receive Him as King/Messiah then, and the nation will be spiritual reborn in a day back unto God, as prophesied by Ezekiel!

Which Scriptures tell you that national Israel goes through the tribulation for the purpose of meeting Jesus as the Messiah?

NOT the version that claims second coming already happened!

While I'm not sure about the history of Full Preterism, the "futurist" doctrine that is so popular today has only been around since the 1830s.

 

[Lodic]

Its also based upon us being physically resurrected at time of the second coming!

I am not from Missouri, but you will still have to show me where a belief in being physically resurrected is necessary for salvation. On a related note - As I understand it, Christians go to Heaven when they die. When Christ returns, will every Christian who has died in the Faith receive a new physical body?

They will mourn over Him, as they will be convicted and turn to him to get saved!

We are just not going to agree on this.

 

[Yeshua1]

Which Scriptures tell you that national Israel goes through the tribulation for the purpose of meeting Jesus as the Messiah?


While I'm not sure about the history of Full Preterism, the "futurist" doctrine that is so popular today has only been around since the 1830s.

PreMil was popular among some of the ECF themselves, so way before 1830!

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not from Missouri, but you will still have to show me where a belief in being physically resurrected is necessary for salvation. On a related note - As I understand it, Christians go to Heaven when they die. When Christ returns, will every Christian who has died in the Faith receive a new physical body?


We are just not going to agree on this.

1 John 3:2