OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I would be interested in you showing how Galatians 3 supports anything about dispensationalism and the future of ethnic Israel {If such exists!}.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Eschatology Questions
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
I would be interested in you showing how Galatians 3 supports anything about dispensationalism and the future of ethnic Israel {If such exists!}.
Exactly. Or Romans 4 where the land promise is opened up to the world and not a geographical location.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
That's the mistake all covenant theologists make, assuming when we say "Israel" we are talking about ethnic Israel. Faithful Israel will be made up of ethnic Jews who come to know Christ as Messiah/Savior during the Tribulation.
Galatians 3 confirms the teaching throughout the Bible that the Abrahamic Covenant made by God with Abram, with God as the only responsible party to it, in Genesis. There are three parts to the covenant: Personal promises to Abram himself to make his name great (Genesis 12:2), to give him many descendents (Genesis 13:16; 15:4, 5; 17:6), to make him both the physical and spiritual father of many nations (Genesis 17:4, 5), and to give him the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession (Genesis 13:14-15, 17; 15:7; 17:8), and to bless those who blessed Abraham and curse those who cursed him (Genesis 12:3).
Second, God made national promises concerning Israel. God promised to make a great nation of Abraham’s physical descendants (Genesis 12:2), to give the land of Canaan from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates River to Abraham’s physical descendants forever (Gen*esis 12:7; 13:14-15; 15:18-21; 17:8), and to give the Abrahamic Covenant to his descendants for an everlasting covenant (Genesis 17:7, 19). The Genesis 17:19 passage indicates that God intended the covenant to continue on through Isaac, Abraham’s biological son, and Isaac’s descendants—thus, through Abraham’s physical seed. The fact that God promised to give Abraham’s physical descendants the land of Canaan forever and the covenant for an everlasting covenant demands that Israel never perish as a people. Should Israel ever perish as a nation, it could not possess the land forever, and its Abrahamic Covenant could not be everlasting.
Third, God made universal promises which would affect all peoples of the world. God vowed that all families of the earth would be blessed through Abraham’s physical line of descent (Genesis 12:3; 22:18; 28:14). There is great spiritual blessing available to all peoples through Jesus Christ and the Jews, predicated on belief.
Galatians 3, NASB
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Verse 9 negates all of ethnic Israel from receiving the promises, but it does not negate faithful ethnic Israel from receiving them. God does not lie, He does not renege, He does not "change His mind." He is sovereign -- as so many here are fond of reciting as though they are the only ones who believe that. They are not. And as a sovereign God, He can show favor to whom He chooses -- even Israel, whom you believe He has forgotten.6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Ask yourself, if He can forget His promises to Israel, can we really expect that He will keep His promises to us? To claim God "reneges" is to make God a liar.
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
By faithful I assume you mean spiritual. Within that nation Israel there was at all times a people faithful to God, spiritual Israel. I believe, and Scripture shows this, that Spiritual Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the Church of the New Testament. With the crucifixion of Jesus Christ instigated by the representatives of ethnic or national Israel God's purpose for Israel was finished. This is demonstrated by the rending of the curtain in the Temple and ultimately by the destruction of that Temple.
I can't speak for all who hold to covenant theology. As for myself I have yet to read anything by a dispensationalist who makes a distinction between faithful or "Spiritual" Israel and ethnic Israel.
When in Scripture does everlasting become 1000 years? By your insistence that Israel will dwell forever in Caanan you are actually tossing out the last 3 chapters of the Bible. When Jesus Christ returns this present earth will cease to exist, as described by the Apostle John: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. {Revelation 21:1}
What Gospel was preached to Abraham? The passage you present above indicates to me the grievous error of dispensationalism in fact is a death blow to dispensationalism. God has always dealt with people through Grace. Scripture shows that God manifested that Grace through Covenants, not dispensations. God has always had only one people, those saved by Grace and that Grace made possible through the blood of Jesus Christ.
Hi TND, perhaps your view of progressive dispensation is different from the ones presented at various internet sites?
Progressives, at least my flavor, use "all Israel" to refer to believers, thus believing Jews who gained approval through faith under the Old Covenant, are included, as well as believers under the New Covenant.
Dispensationalism is a theological term used to describe a method of interpreting the Bible. Progressive Dispensation is one version of many that differs from Traditional Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists believe Christ will govern upon David’s throne here on earth for one thousand years, or in other words they take those passages literally. Therefore Dispensationalists like to excoriate the “Reformed, Replacement Theology, Amillennialists” as not interpreting the Bible literally and therefore we stand on higher ground. And so it goes in theological debate.
Sadly the first thing to grasp is that the main difference between Covenant Theology (errant Amillennialists) and we, the virtuous Dispensationalists, has little to do with the idea that God governs man in differing ways. Both schools of thought agree God deals with man in different ways. No the chief difference is in our views of an End Times dispensation. Basically both schools agree on: 1) Dispensation of Innocence or how God dealt with man before the fall; 2) Dispensation of Conscious or how God deals with man without the Law; 3) Dispensation of the Law or how God deals with man with the Law; 4) Dispensation of Grace or how God deals with man in Christ Jesus before the Second Coming; 5) the Millennial Kingdom or how God deals with all Israel on earth after the Second Coming; and 6) the Eternal Kingdom or how God deals with his children in eternity. Now the chief difference is that the Amillennialists believe the fifth age is going on right now in heaven so the Second Coming will inaugurate the sixth dispensation. Hence, Amillennialists are against the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth. Rather, they hold to the idea that the Church replaced Israel (Replacement Theology) and the promises to Israel have been transferred to the Church and are being fulfilled in heaven during the dispensation of grace.
Let me say here that the above represents my understanding of the issue and I am quite sure I have missed the mark in the details, but I believe the above properly represents the general idea. But now to the heart of the post, what is the difference between a traditional dispensationalist and a progressive dispensationalist?
“Traditional dispensationalists typically see the 'church age' as an interruption or parenthetical period in God's dealing with Israel. The church is seen as unrelated to Israel and the new covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.” (Tim Warner)
Progressive dispensationalists see the Church Age as a progression where God deals with the faithful in a new covenant enabled by the blood of Christ, and this Dispensation of Grace is available to those with the Law (Jews) and those without the Law (Gentiles who have heard the gospel in light of the Old Testament). Some but not all Old Testament promises apply to the church now, and are not being held in abeyance pending the Second Coming. Thus I can read Galatians 3 and it matches my theology perfectly. Same for Romans 9-11.
Another area where I fundamentally disagree with many is that I believe God is using multiple dispensations at the same time. Therefore today, three dispensations are in effect, God is dealing with those without the Law, who have not heard the gospel presented in light of an understanding of the Old Testament (Dispensation of Conscience); God is dealing with those who have the Law which includes Jews and non Jews who have heard the gospel in light of the Old Testament but have not accepted the gospel and have not been born again (Dispensation of the Law); and three, God is dealing with born again believers, the Dispensation of Grace.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
I believe I said "faithful, ethnic Israel" and that's what I meant.
Not quite. Faithful ethnic Jews became key members of the Jerusalem Church, and in other locations in Asia and Europe as well. But there was no mass movement of "spiritual Israel" into the church.
You cannot claim that Scripturally, particularly in light of the fact that it ignores the promises to Abram as I stated in the other post. God never cancels those promises, and regarding the land He gave it "forever." One cannot equivocate that statement. It says what is says.
What the rending of the curtain demonstrates is that the people's access to God is now directly available, rather than coming through the priests. The curtain tearing does not represent any denial of God's past promises.
The destruction of the Temple, and with it the city of Jerusalem, had a profound impact on the Jewish people and brought about a dramatic change in Judaism itself. The people were once again separated from their contact with God. But this time there were no prophets to comfort and reassure them of their future reinstatement in the holy city.
The destruction of the Temple caused shock, bitterness and pessimism to pervade the Jewish mindset. The sense of finality and irreversibility the exile left on the Jewish people was reflected in the subsequent association -- still alive today -- made between the anticipation of the rebuilding of the Temple and the apocalyptic vision of the end of days. The dream of being reinstated in Jerusalem was pushed off into the distant future and into an era where the natural world will cease to exist as we know it. The destruction made no division between God making Israel His chosen people and then denying that chosenness. He will yet fulfill those promises.
I think it has been placed before you, you just haven't seen it. "Israel" refers to the modern secular nation-state, which is continuing in disobedience and rebellion, having rejected the offer of the New Covenant upon Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem.
Nonetheless, the faithful among them, and those who will be converted, are still the Chosen People of God who have a divine right to the land of Israel by means of the unconditional Abrahamic covenant. God will ultimately restore national Israel to faith in Yeshua Ha'Mashiach -- Jesus, the Christ -- at which time they shall be fully reinstated and receive the kingdom blessings promised to King David. That doesn't mean all will come to that faith, just as not all of those involved in the Exodus were not all of the faith.
You ignore the fact that Jesus declares from the throne, in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new." The word "new" is the Greek kainos, which means "new, as respects form; that is, refreshed, as though unused; of a new kind; unprecedented, uncommon, unheard of." God's heaven and the Earth are not replaced, but refreshed only as God can do it, remaking in a form unimagined. The land isn't gone with an old Earth, it is refreshed along with the rest of the Earth.
Surely you jest!!
John 8, NASB
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Abram was told, before ever realizing the fulfillment he expected in departing his childhood home in Ur of the Chaldees, that his legacy was to reveal God's glory.56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Genesis 12
3 "And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
That promise runs like a light beam down through the centuries since Abraham, confirming that at the Last Day, the expulsion from Eden will be rectified and all believing mankind will enter into happiness. That implies the abolition of evil and the end of death. It demands that the prospect that stretched before the first man at the beginning, before sin and death entered, will be restored. Man will at the end enter upon the ages of eternity and life everlasting, and Israel will enter into her homland. That was the Gospel preached to Abraham, in outline, obscurely granted, but in sufficient detail to give him a basis for that faith which never left him to his dying day.3 "And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
You think God will curse the U.S. if it doesn't kowtow to Likud's grand scheme of a 'Greater Israel'? Is that what you'd have us believe?
The promise of Gen 12:3, as well as the blessing of Gen 15:6, was given to Abraham BEFORE circumcision [Ro 4:9,10], and ultimately applies to the children of promise, NOT to the children of the flesh.
16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise.
19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.
29 And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise. Gen 3
6.......For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9
And once again d-CON, there are no unfulfilled promises concerning Israel after the flesh:
43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21
And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh 23:14
Blessed be Jehovah, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by Moses his servant. 1 Ki 8:56
For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Faithful ethnic Israel doesn't exist. In fact it is doubtful it ever did exist.
I don't know your definition of "spiritual" Israel but mine is they were the "true believers" you know like Elijah and the 7000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal! Once the Cross Work of Jesus Christ was complete then all "true believers" are followers of Jesus Christ. They may be ethnic Jews or ethnic Israel but that is meaningless without Jesus Christ.
Forever as eternally? As I noted earlier the existing heavens and earth will be no more following the Return of Jesus Christ. Whether the New Heavens and New Earth are newly created or simply refurbished it is meaningless to claim that National Israel resides in Caanan when national Israel will no longer exist. Only the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Jesus Christ will dwell in the New Heavens and New Earth with the Triune God!
It represents the completion of God's purpose in calling out of Abraham.
They were separated from God only by their refusal to accept what God offered. But the elect of Israel were and will be saved.
Only through faith in Jesus Christ. See Galatians 3:24-29.
I am able to read. If you can present one reference where a classic dispensationalist makes a distinction between "spiritual" Israel and national Israel it would be appreciated. I have read little about progressive dispensationalism but am simply glad that they are moving toward covenant premillennialism and a correct doctrine of the Bride of Jesus Christ.
As noted earlier the elect of Israel and all peoples will be brought to Salvation in Jesus Christ!
Those who are converted are the chosen people of God. Are you claiming that national Israel is still the Chosen People of God? You appear to be doing so!
The Jews who are saved will receive the same blessings as all the redeemed.
I am glad to see that you agree that faithful ethnic Israel doesn't exist. In fact it is doubtful it ever did exist.
I already pointed that out from Revelation 21:1.
I never jest about Scripture. I suggest you contemplate the following Scripture:
Galatians 3:16; 24-29.
16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Very insightful post! Thanks much for Scripture showing that God has already kept His promises!
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
OR, with respect, you've made arguments against my post without providing evidence, only opinion. When you post more than that, I will respond. I've defined the terminology I have used, yet you choose to redefine it or ignore it in making your reply. I've given you Scripture and exegesis. It would be polite of you to do the same.
D-CON the neocon has already been told all this, his response will always be the typical extra-biblical Zionist/Dispy charts/maps/propaganda intended to keep dispies in line for blind unconditional support of Likud. Dispensationalism is no longer just a theology, it's a war mongering, negativistic, depressing, pessimistic, theo-political heresy that carries potent political clout on the right. It left off being a 'benign' eschatology decades ago.
Last edited by a moderator:
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It has already been almost 2000 years!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Jew
Careful there kyredneck, There are some who might call you a Spiritual Jew based on the following Scripture!
Romans 2:28, 29
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Colossians 2:11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Philippians 3:3. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Careful there kyredneck, There are some who might call you a Spiritual Jew based on the following Scripture!
Romans 2:28, 29
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Colossians 2:11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Philippians 3:3. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Heh there Ky. I did not mean to scare you off!
So is Huckabee a Dispy? And the answer to that is yes, yes he is....big supporter of it.
Now what?
Now what?
Last edited by a moderator:
Geez, KRN, don't hold back! Tell me how you really feel!!
Dconn....I asked my brother during the W administration his political position on Iraq and Aryan. I was told that any muslem is an enemy of Christianity and (Israel) ....so they should ALL be killed. My brother is a big Dispy...he is also a nut.
Judging from his friends and supporters, most likely Huckabee is Dispensationalist.
Anyway, he has performed the vetting ritual at least twice:
....but so has your beloved governor:
...though Christie most likely 'messed his nest' last weekend in hopes to become POTUS by referring to the occupied territories as being occupied territories.
Last edited by a moderator: