Thanks Steaver! That was a big help! I'm going to order that commentary.
I think this is it.
Let me know if it's not.
I think this is it.
Let me know if it's not.
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Eternal Life vs Life Eternal
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
But if they "cease to exist", how can they be subject to "shame and everlasting contempt?" (Daniel 12.2). How can they be "punished with everlasting destruction"? (1 Thessalonians 2.9). And if the words "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25.46 mean annihilation, what does "eternal life" in the same verse mean? (I understand that the same Greek word is used for "everlasting" and "eternal" in that verse).Andre said:
David Lamb said:
If this debate continues, I think you will be amazed at how one can twist Scripture to try to make it support the belief of annihilation. I can not see how one can read what the Bible says about the final fate of unbelievers and think it means anything other than conscious eternal torment. In my opinion, to think the Bible teaches annihilation, one would have to start with the belief that unbelievers cease to exist and then try to find support for it in the Bible. I think it is clear what God's Word says about this, and it is not "oblivion".
I think that some cannot understand why God would sentence someone to eternal conscious torment (unimaginable punishment without end is something no one wants to think about). Yet Jesus talked more about hell than He did about heaven. He warned again and again about ending up there.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Was Adam before the fall in possession of eternal physical life or eternal spiritual life or possibly both? Was Adam created a spiritual creature with a soul/spirit? If Adam was not in possession of eternal spiritual life before the fall, was his hope eternal damnation? Is there any other choice open to the mind apart from being either spiritually eternal or not being spiritually eternal, and if spiritually eternal either having a hope of heaven or hell?
drfuss: The following is the results of a study I did on how eternal life is addressed in scripture. You may find it interesting.
Many Christians believe that they have eternal life the moment they believe. Other Christians believe eternal life in the scriptures only refers to life after we die. Below are lists of scriptures to support both positions. I didn’t bother to type out the Eternal Life Now scriptures because I am lazy and they are well known.
Eternal Life Only in the Future
Scripture that can be used to support eternal life starting when you die include:
Mark 10:17 - The rich young man asked Jesus what to do to inherit eternal life.
Luke 10:25 - An expert of the law asked Jesus “What must I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:18 - A certain ruler asked Jesus “What must I do to inherit eternal life?
Matt. 19:29 - Jesus talks about the blessings of this life and then says “and will inherit eternal life”.
Matt. 25:46 - Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Mark 10:30 - Jesus talks about blessings in this life and then He says “in the age to come, eternal life”.
Luke 18:30 - Jesus talks about blessings in this life and then He says “and, in the age to come, eternal life”.
Romans 2:7 - “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life.”
Romans 2:21 - “….so that grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Titus 1;2 - Here Paul says “hope of eternal life” (Implies future tense).
Titus 3:7 - “so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life”.
1 John 2:25 - “And this is what He promised us---even eternal life.”
Jude 21 - “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
The above scriptures are specific about eternal life referring to the future life and not the present time.
Eternal Life Now
Scriptures that can be used to support Christians having eternal life now include:
John 3:16, 3:36, 5:39, 6:40, 6:54, 10:28, 12:25, 17;2&3
1 Tim. 1:16
These scriptures talk about Christians having eternal life. Note that they are all in John except I Tim. 1:16
Is there a contradiction here? I think the “Eternal Life Now” scriptures were written with the understanding that eternal life is promised in the future to those who believe; so it can be considered that they have eternal life.
The “Eternal Life Only in the Future” scriptures are too specific to mean anything else.
What do you think? Comments? Explanations?
Many Christians believe that they have eternal life the moment they believe. Other Christians believe eternal life in the scriptures only refers to life after we die. Below are lists of scriptures to support both positions. I didn’t bother to type out the Eternal Life Now scriptures because I am lazy and they are well known.
Eternal Life Only in the Future
Scripture that can be used to support eternal life starting when you die include:
Mark 10:17 - The rich young man asked Jesus what to do to inherit eternal life.
Luke 10:25 - An expert of the law asked Jesus “What must I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:18 - A certain ruler asked Jesus “What must I do to inherit eternal life?
Matt. 19:29 - Jesus talks about the blessings of this life and then says “and will inherit eternal life”.
Matt. 25:46 - Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Mark 10:30 - Jesus talks about blessings in this life and then He says “in the age to come, eternal life”.
Luke 18:30 - Jesus talks about blessings in this life and then He says “and, in the age to come, eternal life”.
Romans 2:7 - “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life.”
Romans 2:21 - “….so that grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Titus 1;2 - Here Paul says “hope of eternal life” (Implies future tense).
Titus 3:7 - “so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life”.
1 John 2:25 - “And this is what He promised us---even eternal life.”
Jude 21 - “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
The above scriptures are specific about eternal life referring to the future life and not the present time.
Eternal Life Now
Scriptures that can be used to support Christians having eternal life now include:
John 3:16, 3:36, 5:39, 6:40, 6:54, 10:28, 12:25, 17;2&3
1 Tim. 1:16
These scriptures talk about Christians having eternal life. Note that they are all in John except I Tim. 1:16
Is there a contradiction here? I think the “Eternal Life Now” scriptures were written with the understanding that eternal life is promised in the future to those who believe; so it can be considered that they have eternal life.
The “Eternal Life Only in the Future” scriptures are too specific to mean anything else.
What do you think? Comments? Explanations?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: How can one know now that their hope is certain and sure and that they are not deceived? Can one make shipwreck of the faith and in the end be lost?
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
drfuss: One knows now that their hope is certain and sure through their believing and faith in Jesus and accepting His grace. If one stops believing and having faith in Jesus, one can be lost.
However, my previous post was not intended to start an OSAS discussion. My intention was to point out the Gospel of John (and I Tim. 1:16) treats eternal life as Christians have eternal life now; while all other scriptures (that I found) treat eternal life as being only in the future.
Is there any significance to eternal life being treated as now in John while other scriptures treat eternal life as only in the future?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I believe full well that eternal life starts in the here and now at the point of salvation, yet the promises are conditional on continued obedience. We can indeed know that we have passed from death to life. Still, divorcing obedience from our faith is a certain way to make shipwreck of ones faith. I do not personally see any significance in the manner in which eternal life is expressed in the portions of Scripture you so aptly pointed out. Thank you for posting the lists of passages concerning eternal life as you did.:thumbs:
I fully intended for the matter of eternal security OSAS to be part of this discussion. We have heard over and over that if eternal life is granted that it cannot be withdrawn or it never was eternal life to start with. That approach to the issue of eternal life is simply flawed. Who are we to tell God that He cannot place the condition of continued obedience upon His gift as He most certainly did? Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mr 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
We need to add these to your list of passages that speak of eternal life (salvation) as yet to be meted out in finality.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
drfuss: I believe there is a significance in eternal life being treated both ways. We have eternal life now, but to inherit (retain) eternal life in the future, we must continue to trust in Christ as Savior. We forfeit eternal life if we stop trusting in Christ.
The eternal life now scriptures are to show our spiritual position as we trust in Christ
The eternal life in the future scriptures are to encourage Christians to continue trusting in Christ.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I believe you have a good grasp on the truth. :thumbs: We need to both know where we stand now and now how to remain standing as you aptly point out.
The following passage that BR has pointed out repeatedly sets forth the same truths. Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Notice carefully how they were branches of the tree, then cut off, then made able to be grafted in again. The believer is warned that we stand by faith but if we fail to ‘continue in His goodness” we also shall be cut off. The bottom line is that which one has had or now possesses may in fact be spurned in unbelief to the resulting end of possible destruction away from Christ. The clear message of the Word of God is that if one is desirous of making heaven our home, we must remain faithful until the end, not wavering.
What another wonderful promise from our Lord and Saviour! He that endureth unto the end shall be saved!
This is yet another of many passages which expresses once born of God always a child of God. It is a promise from God that even though they may torture you and even put you to death, you will be saved! Praise Jesus!
God bless! :thumbs:
There is no such thing as a child of God, one who has been born of God and knows Jesus Christ personally through regeneration, ceasing to believe that which they have absolute knowledge of is a Truth.
I know I am steaver and I can never stop believing that I am steaver, nor can I ever stop being steaver because i have been born steaver. Jesus used this same perfect analogy when He declared the spiritual birth that would take place within a person who calls on God to be saved through Jesus Christ. Faith is then sealed forever! A new creature is born. Once born, always born.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
What a Promise!!!!
:thumbs:
The bottom line as far as salvation goes in this passage is this; No belief = No salvation. To assume that every hearer of God's word and every soul who claims to be a believer ACTUALLY is truly a "born again" believer would be very foolish indeed. In fact, the disciples didn't even know that Judas was not truly a believer. Judas followed Christ around and looked the part yet was a true unbeliever. This is why you find these warnings throughout the scriptures, Paul knows that not all who say Lord, Lord are truly born again believers. This is why he, along with the other apostles, gives the church warnings about checking their "said" faith. James devotes time to this lip service in chapter 2. The writer of Hebrews expresses it as well.
2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Jam 2:14¶What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Here is a simple question;
Do you believe that every person who says they believe in Jesus Christ has been born-again?
Take heed, brethern! Examine yourself! Can a dead faith save you?
:thumbs:
steaver said:
drfuss: What an innovative interpretation you give for this scripture.
One has to be a Christian first in order to then endure to the end. Otherwise a Christian can not be enduring.
This scripture indicates that there can be true Christians that may not endure to the end or else why is it even addressed. How OSAS types can get OSAS out of this scripture is beyond me. Clearly, if a Christian does not continue trusting Christ until the end, he will not be saved.
Let's "rightly divide the word of truth".
"He that endureth unto the end shall be saved"
Endureth what?
The answer is given in verse 9.
Mat 24:9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Where would one find enduring faith addressed in this passage? Answer is nowhere.
The enduring is the persecution. The persecution is what is the focus in this passage and Jesus says it will happen to Christians here in the time He speaks of.
We are saved by grace through faith and this NOT OF YOURSELF (Eph 2). If one decides that the endurance here is something oneself does to be saved then Paul lies in Eph 2 and it contradicts numerous passages of scripture as well.
You WILL be persecuted. But do not be troubled. He that endureth to the end shall be saved.
It is a promise, not a do this or burn!
The passage speaks nothing of enduring faith. It speaks of Christians enduring the persecution that is to come and is a promise, an encouragement.
All of the perserverance passages are for our encouragement not for to burden us.
Here is a scenario that could play out in your view of this passage;
The world has gone mad through the woes of the antichrist. Pain and suffering for Christians are at it's highest levels since the days of the apostles. The antichrist forces are commanded to round up the people and all who will not denounce Jesus Christ and turn and worship the antichrist will be slaughtered.
Men raid the towns and drag whole families out into the public square. They first address the father. His wife and children are watching on as the man begins to beat the father with the butt of his rifle. With each blow he asks the man if he will worship the antichrist and denounce this Jesus? The man is near death, beaten so severly he is hardly recognizable. His children are screaming and hiding their faces but the men force them to watch their father being executed before their eyes. His crime is believing in Jesus Christ. He is given one last chance to denounce Jesus but refuses. With a single gunshot to the head he goes lifeless.
It is now the wifes turn, but as her beating begins the attention is turned to one of the children. A little girl about ten years old who has embraced Jesus Christ as a little child and has been taught to love the Lord with all of her heart, and does. One of the men takes the little girl by the arms and ask her if she would like her mommy to be killed just like they did her daddy? The man tells the girl that this is all happening because her family has believed in a false Jesus and she should be worshipping another. The girl is full of terror and cannot stand to see her mommy beaten and killed like she just watched her father suffer. The little girl says to the man, please stop, I will not believe in Jesus anymore, just please stop!
So the man takes out his side pistol, walks over to her mother and shoots her dead. He then does the same to the little girl along with the rest of the family. Just because he can and he is evil.
So the little girl didn't endureth. She must burn in hell. It is a sad day for this so called grace of God. Jesus lied when He said no man could ever pluck her out of His hand. Oh yeah, but she jumped out, right!
I think you see how absurd this interpretation could get. This is what you would get with such an interpretation of this passage. God has not designed His grace with self endurance having any part in the equasion. If one is born of God one will endureth unto the end.
The passage does not say as you believe "Endure unto the end and ye shall be saved".
But rather;
"He that endureth unto the end shall be saved"
It is a promise, not a do this or else.
:thumbs:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Well stated and excellent questions drfuss:thumbs:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
deleted by HP
Can you imagine teaching your children that one day they may be delivered unto torturers because they believe in Jesus and if they fail to keep on believing in Jesus while being abused and beaten they will go to hell?
The child may ask, "but why would Jesus let them torture me ?" "Why do some get to live a peaceful, trailless life and die a peaceful, tralless death and go to heaven while I might have to be tortured for my faith in life and if i fail i must go to hell?"
Can you imagine Jesus watching a child of His being tortured while pondering if the child can take it and retain their salvation? That would be some special Saviour, wouldn't it?
It is sad that these scriptures like in Matt 24 are so mishandled and misapplied.
Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
1Ch 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do [it]: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, [even] my God, [will be] with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
It is very sad to see Christians turn the promissess of God into warnings against human failure.
By grace ye have been saved through faith and this NOT OF YOURSELVES!
Christians need to learn what grace means before they set their minds on teaching doctrine to others.
Jam 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Grace = NOT OF YOURSELVES!
:thumbs: