Eternal Life vs Life Eternal

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Can you imagine Jesus watching a child of His being tortured while pondering if the child can take it and retain their salvation? That would be some special Saviour, wouldn't it?

HP: Let the reader beware that Steaver tries in vain to change this discussion by the injection of pure emotive argumentation and hypothetical speculation. This Is not a discussion as to whether or not God is able to deliver one from torture that has been faithful to Him in their life. Scripture affirms without question that God is able to do that. “2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:” Notice it is the 'godly,' not the unfaithful or sinful that God knows how to deliver.

This debate centers around the false notion of OSAS and the false belief that one can sin with impunity if in fact they have ever been born again at one point in time. This is about the false notions that have been set forth on this list that sin does not separate one from God, a notion foreign to the word of God. This is not about torture at the end of ones life, but rather about the daily walk of the believer when there is no torture present. It is about whether or not a believer sins every day in thought word and deed but still tries to entertain a certain hope of eternal life, embedding false notions of antinomianism in the hearts of the listener. This is about the false notion that God will punish one for the same acts that another does with impunity. Steaver needs to get the issues straight and address the real questions before he tries to change the debate with a scenario not in the least in accordance to the past discussions on this list nor implied by any that I have read.

Steaver: It is sad that these scriptures like in Matt 24 are so mishandled and misapplied.

HP: There are many on the list that also believe it is sad to ignore the clear warnings in Scripture directed at the believer to remain faithful until the end as Steaver seem so adept at doing.

Steaver: It is very sad to see Christians turn the promissess of God into warnings against human failure.

HP: Again there are many on the list that see it as sad when individuals such as Steaver apply the great promises of God to the 'faithful believer' and misapply those precious promises to the sinful and unfaithful.

Steaver: By grace ye have been saved through faith and this NOT OF YOURSELVES!

HP: Certainly salvations plan and the means by which it is to be accomplished is not the product of man. There is NOT ONE on this list that I have read that does not hold firmly that salvation is by grace through faith and not of ourselves. For Steaver to suggest otherwise is to flatly twist and misuse the clearly stated sentiments of his opponents. That is again not what this debate is all about.

The debate centers on the false notion that one can divorce the formed intents God has set forth as the conditions for man to fulfill, without which eternal salvation will not be accomplished. This debate has always been about whether or not a Sovereign God can in His sovereignty establish and require certain conditions for man to fulfill in order to receive of His grace. Steaver, and those of like sentiments, try and tell God that He has no right to establish conditions of obedience in order to bestow His grace, and try vainly to set forth that God would somehow be cruel or unjust by requiring it.

This debate has always been about the false notion that God’s requirements for man, as set forth clearly in Scripture are impossible for man to keep. Those that hold to such sentiments create a God that is a taskmaster, requiring of man strict impossibilities, and then obviously holding man accountable and punishing man eternally for failure to do the impossible……….or devise an unsupported notion that the damning sin is ONLY the rejection of Jesus Christ, a notion unfounded in Scripture and that defies logic and experience, removing the heinousness of actual sin to nothing more than that of an unavoidable disease.

Steaver: Christians need to learn what grace means before they set their minds on teaching doctrine to others.

HP: That would certainly be a desirable notion for everyone to follow.

Steaver: Jam 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

HP: In consideration of the false notion by some on this list that the ONLY damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ, I fail to see any relevance. Why don’t you know that there is NO condemnation to those that are believers…, at least to some, again on this list? Are you now to tell us differently? Possibly ‘brethren’ does not indicate believers? I for one would believe that you have some serious thought to do on this verse before you start applying it to those opposed to the notions you are purporting.

Steaver; Grace = NOT OF YOURSELVES!

HP: Who disagrees with that? Let me make this very clear to the listener. The issue is whether or not a Sovereign God can and has set forth clear conditions to inherit eternal life. Steaver has but one thing to establish to set this debate on a straight and reasonable course. Prove that a Sovereign God cannot or has not done so as Steaver implies in the arguments he has set forth so far. Steaver need to use something other that emotive argumentation founded upon man-made philosophical conjecture not set forth or established by Scripture.

 

[drfuss]

Can you imagine teaching your children that one day they may be delivered unto torturers because they believe in Jesus and if they fail to keep on believing in Jesus while being abused and beaten they will go to hell?

The child may ask, "but why would Jesus let them torture me ?" "Why do some get to live a peaceful, trailless life and die a peaceful, tralless death and go to heaven while I might have to be tortured for my faith in life and if i fail i must go to hell?"

Can you imagine Jesus watching a child of His being tortured while pondering if the child can take it and retain their salvation? That would be some special Saviour, wouldn't it?

It is sad that these scriptures like in Matt 24 are so mishandled and misapplied.

Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

1Ch 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do [it]: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, [even] my God, [will be] with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.

Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

It is very sad to see Christians turn the promissess of God into warnings against human failure.

By grace ye have been saved through faith and this NOT OF YOURSELVES!

Christians need to learn what grace means before they set their minds on teaching doctrine to others.

Jam 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Grace = NOT OF YOURSELVES!

:thumbs:

drfuss: The above includes some interesting considerations concerning the life of a Christian, but it does not address the issue of OSAS, i.e. can a Christian stop trusting Christ as Savior.

I realize OSAS Christains are continually taught innovative explanations of the many scriptures that conflict with OSAS. Your explanation of Matt. 24:13 is really a stretch in these innovative explantions; but I suppose it is nevessary for you to continue believing in OSAS. Most OSAS Christians have been taught and believed these innovative, OSAS protecting, explanations since they became a Christian; resulting in making it hard for OSAS Christians to look objectively at scriptures that conflict with OSAS.

Anyway, from a practical perspective, the difference between the OSAS beliefs and most Non-OSAS beliefs is only a play on words.

Peace,

drfuss

 

[DHK]

drfuss: The above includes some interesting considerations concerning the life of a Christian, but it does not address the issue of OSAS, i.e. can a Christian stop trusting Christ as Savior.

I realize OSAS Christains are continually taught innovative explanations of the many scriptures that conflict with OSAS. Your explanation of Matt. 24:13 is really a stretch in these innovative explantions; but I suppose it is nevessary for you to continue believing in OSAS. Most OSAS Christians have been taught and believed these innovative, OSAS protecting, explanations since they became a Christian; resulting in making it hard for OSAS Christians to look objectively at scriptures that conflict with OSAS.

Anyway, from a practical perspective, the difference between the OSAS beliefs and most Non-OSAS beliefs is only a play on words.

Peace,

drfuss

It is not a play on words. It is a matter of taking Christ at His word. Either "I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never perish" is true or not. To deny such strong language is the equivalent of saying that Christ cannot keep his promise and is lying. Yet, over and over does Christ give such as assurances, as well as all of the other Apostles in their writings. To pit a few isolated verses taken out of their context against the vast totality of what the Bible teaches is to do a disgrace to rightly dividing the word of truth and honest objective Bible Study. It indicates that one has started with a pre-supposed premise and will not let go of it no matter how he must twist the Scriptures in order to hold to it.

Your example from Mat.24 is a good one. "He that endures to the end will be saved." What is the context? Have you asked yourself that? Who is Christ speaking to? What is the subject matter? the topic? The time frame? Have you answered all of these questions first, or have you just isolated this verse to prop up your defence that one can lose their salvation. I believe it is the latter.
Without looking at the context in detail you will not know the meaning of the verse, and have no right to use it in the way that you do.

The verse is speaking of Jews who will be going through the Tribulation. Christians will be raptured before that time. It doesn't apply to them.
Just two verses later he says:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
--This takes place right in the middle of the tribulation: three and a half years in. He is speaking of Jews. It is not a spiritual salvation, but a physical salvation that is being referred to.
If one endures to the end they will be saved out of the persecution physically.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is not a play on words. It is a matter of taking Christ at His word. Either "I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never perish" is true or not. To deny such strong language is the equivalent of saying that Christ cannot keep his promise and is lying. Yet, over and over does Christ give such as assurances, as well as all of the other Apostles in their writings. To pit a few isolated verses taken out of their context against the vast totality of what the Bible teaches is to do a disgrace to rightly dividing the word of truth and honest objective Bible Study. It indicates that one has started with a pre-supposed premise and will not let go of it no matter how he must twist the Scriptures in order to hold to it.

Your example from Mat.24 is a good one. "He that endures to the end will be saved." What is the context? Have you asked yourself that? Who is Christ speaking to? What is the subject matter? the topic? The time frame? Have you answered all of these questions first, or have you just isolated this verse to prop up your defence that one can lose their salvation. I believe it is the latter.
Without looking at the context in detail you will not know the meaning of the verse, and have no right to use it in the way that you do.

The verse is speaking of Jews who will be going through the Tribulation. Christians will be raptured before that time. It doesn't apply to them.
Just two verses later he says:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
--This takes place right in the middle of the tribulation: three and a half years in. He is speaking of Jews. It is not a spiritual salvation, but a physical salvation that is being referred to.
If one endures to the end they will be saved out of the persecution physically.

That occured in 70 AD?

 

[DHK]

That occured in 70 AD?

Why would you believe that. Read the entire context. What is happening? Certainly the Temple was destroyed by Titus in 70 A.D., but not in the way that is being described here. Then after the warnings given by Christ, he ends with this statement:

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This happens at the end of the tribulation, again after three and a half years when the Temple has been desecrated by the Antichrist. Christ will come for his own (the Jews), and they that will have endured to the end will be saved (Romans 11:26--So then all Israel shall be saved) spiritually, and they will have have been saved physically for they will not have been martyred during that time. This is speaking of the future, not of past events.
If all of this has already happened don't you think John would have written about it in his gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelation (as a past event). All of his writings were written between 90 and 98 A.D. He refers to these as future events also.

 

[drfuss]

DHK writes in response to my post:
"Your example from Mat.24 is a good one. "He that endures to the end will be saved." What is the context? Have you asked yourself that? Who is Christ speaking to? What is the subject matter? the topic? The time frame? Have you answered all of these questions first, or have you just isolated this verse to prop up your defence that one can lose their salvation. I believe it is the latter.
Without looking at the context in detail you will not know the meaning of the verse, and have no right to use it in the way that you do."

drfuss: It was not my example. I was just responding to Steaver (an OSAS Christian) using Matt. 24:13 to support OSAS pointing out the innovative explanations OSAS Christians can come up with to support OSAS.

Steaver states the following in post #13: "What another wonderful promise from our Lord and Saviour! He that endureth unto the end shall be saved!
This is yet another of many passages which expresses once born of God always a child of God. It is a promise from God that even though they may torture you and even put you to death, you will be saved! Praise Jesus!"

drfuss: DHK, I basically agree with your comments about the Matt.24 context. An OSAS Christian made the innovative application to OSAS (to support OSAS).

Concerning the practical perspective being only a "play on words", consider this. What about a person that professes to be a Christian, and then stops trusting in Christ?

Most OSAS Christians say that person was not really a Christian in the first place or he would not have stopped trusting Christ. Furthermore, unless he is trusting Christ when he dies, he will not go to heaven.

Most NON-OSAS Christians say that person was a Christian, but decided to forfeit his salvation when he stopped trusting Christ, and will not go to heaven unless he is trusting Christ when he dies.

For both OSAS and NON-OSAS Christians, that person must be trusting Christ when he dies to go to heaven. The difference is how that person is described before he stopped trusting Christ, i.e. just a "play on words".

 

[DHK]

For both OSAS and NON-OSAS Christians, that person must be trusting Christ when he dies to go to heaven. The difference is how that person is described before he stopped trusting Christ, i.e. just a "play on words".

Not necessarily. There are many pretenders in this world, even as there was during the time of the Apostle John. Consider:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

John speaks of those who pretended to be Christians. But they weren't. Eventually they left true Christianity. If they were true Christians they would have remained faithful to it.

 

[steaver]

drfuss & HP,

I will not waste the space to quote you two and then explain line for line your errors (you would not care to hear counsel on it anyways). Both of you have gone off on some temper tantrum about everything BUT addressing Matt 24, which is what I jumped in on in this thread about. So why don't we stick to the issue of you two using Matt 24 as a warning to born-again Christians that they must remain faithful or burn?

Mat 24:9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Let's for sake of argument say that these are indeed born-again Christians who are living during this time Jesus speaks of.

These Christains are being delivered up to be afflicted and KILLED!

So let's say here you are, HP and drfuss, being pointed out as Christian and targeted for torture and death. They drag you out beat you and prepare to execute you.

What are your choices?

A) call on Jesus, tell Him you want His Spirit to leave you now because you have decided to stop believing in Him and want to now be condemned to hell rather than saved to heaven as Stephen and the theif on the cross chose.

B) Call on Jesus to receive your spirit

You have these two choices because you are indeed about to die as the scripture says they "shall kill you". You will die very soon. So we are to believe that there will be some who choose hell?

If you cannot make life applications of scripture then you should not be preaching but sitting under someone who can teach you how to rightly divide the word of truth.

All you two have done is to take a line of scripture and abuse it for personal satisfaction.

Answer the question. Why would a person about to die for being a Christian decide to reject Christ and be condemned to hell?

Mat 24:13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


It is a promise! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: So let's say here you are, HP and drfuss, being pointed out as Christian and targeted for torture and death. They drag you out beat you and prepare to execute you.

What are your choices?

A) call on Jesus, tell Him you want His Spirit to leave you now because you have decided to stop believing in Him and want to now be condemned to hell rather than saved to heaven as Stephen and the theif on the cross chose.

B) Call on Jesus to receive your spirit

You have these two choices because you are indeed about to die as the scripture says they "shall kill you". You will die very soon. So we are to believe that there will be some who choose hell?

If you cannot make life applications of scripture then you should not be preaching but sitting under someone who can teach you how to rightly divide the word of truth.

HP: First, I have no doubt that one that has lived a life faithful to Christ need to worry about times such as you depict. Here is the admonition we are given in Matt. For such times as you speak. Mr 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.”

My duty is not to wonder what will happen in such a time, or how I will respond under such pressure, but rather live my life today in such a way as have that assurance by the Holy Spirit that He will indeed be my help and stayin that day if it is to come. The one that I believe will have difficulty in that day is the one that has lived a careless life, failing to take heed to the many warnings and admonitions of Scripture to persevere to the end.

My prayer is that all of us will so order our lives today as to be found having made proper preparations for such a day. 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

All of these are warning to me to pay close attention to my life here and now that I might have been found in that day to have paid careful attention to the foundation I have built upon.

Steaver: Answer the question. Why would a person about to die for being a Christian decide to reject Christ and be condemned to hell?

HP: Answer the following question and I will answer yours. Why would one live a careless sinning religious life here and now? There are many that do so. They have often heard the false notion that somehow their formed intents of selfishness and sin are somehow divorced from their standing before God. They have been feed the false notion that God somehow has blinders on His eyes here and now and cannot see their sin, but rather only sees Christ’s forgiveness. They have been told the untruth that their formed intents and subsequent action have nothing to do whatsoever with their standing before God. I suppose I have answered my question in part at least and it should shed adequate light upon your question as well.

Steaver: Mat 24:13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

HP: That is not a promise Steaver. That is a warning and admonition to take heed.

 

[steaver]

My prayer is that all of us will so order our lives today as to be found having made proper preparations for such a day. 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

All of these are warning to me to pay close attention to my life here and now that I might have been found in that day to have paid careful attention to the foundation I have built upon.

All of these are warnings to examine yourselves to be sure you truly have been born of God and not just following the clan as did Judas.

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

HP: Answer the following question and I will answer yours. Why would one live a careless sinning religious life here and now? There are many that do so. They have often heard the false notion that somehow their formed intents of selfishness and sin are somehow divorced from their standing before God. They have been feed the false notion that God somehow has blinders on His eyes here and now and cannot see their sin, but rather only sees Christ’s forgiveness. They have been told the untruth that their formed intents and subsequent action have nothing to do whatsoever with their standing before God. I suppose I have answered my question in part at least and it should shed adequate light upon your question as well.

So because many erroniously teach a "sin as you please" doctrine this somehow makes OSAS false?

Here is the answer to your question;

1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


Once saved (you must first truly be saved as defined by the scriptures) then you are Always saved (as defined by the scriptures)

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Just to name a few out of dozens!

Now my question; If you are about to be killed, what advantage would it be to stop believing in Christ?

:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Now my question; If you are about to be killed, what advantage would it be to stop believing in Christ?

HP: Would you consider that a leading question? It assumes that one must believe that it would be some advantage to stop believing in Christ. That is simply never the case.

What if I asked you the following questions? If one has taken the name of Christ, what advantage would one find in sinning?

Sin, or rejecting the Savior once one has known Him, both would contain a mystery. Neither could ever be said to be ‘an advantage’ as your question insinuates.

When you tell me why Adam sinned, I might be able to tell you why one would stop being obedient as you asked. I believe we both would agree that such a question is in reality meaningless, for even Christ seemed to be baffled at the reasons why those that rejected His overtures of love did so, as he cried over Jerusalem. I could say selfishness is at the heart of any such rejection, but there will always remain an unanswered ‘but why?’ at least in this world and possibly even in the world to come. Our job is to see that it may never to be so in our own lives by remaining obedient to God. :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

It assumes that one must believe that it would be some advantage to stop believing in Christ. That is simply never the case.

Bingo!!

And thus, Matt 24 as you apply it to a Christian who stops believing because he is about to be killed makes no logical sense and is a meaningless application to the Christian life. Matt 24 is a statement, a fact, it is not a "endure OR ELSE". The only logical application to a Christian life is that "he who endures unto the end shall be saved" EVEN though he must suffer and die a physical death. This is the only application that fits the context.

What if I asked you the following questions? If one has taken the name of Christ, what advantage would one find in sinning?

No advantage at all.

Sin, or rejecting the Savior once one has known Him, both would contain a mystery

"Sin" has many scenarios and Christians work at ridding themselves of sin with the help of Christ. Rejecting the Saviour once one has known Him sure would be a mystery indeed and is why it is not found in scripture but only in the minds of men. One does not reject that which they have received absoulute knowledge of (regeneration) is a fact.

When you tell me why Adam sinned, I might be able to tell you why one would stop being obedient as you asked. I believe we both would agree that such a question is in reality meaningless, for even Christ seemed to be baffled at the reasons why those that rejected His overtures of love did so, as he cried over Jerusalem. I could say selfishness is at the heart of any such rejection, but there will always remain an unanswered ‘but why?’ at least in this world and possibly even in the world to come. Our job is to see that it may never to be so in our own lives by remaining obedient to God. :thumbs:

You touch on the answer as I have boldened your thoughts. If you can take the time to study the purpose of God implementing "born-again" you will understand. The selfish heart that was always straying from God needed regenerated. God needed this regeneration so He could present to Christ a perfect bride, one who's heart did not come and go but was set on God and kept by the power of the Holy Ghost. Christians are God's glory, they are Christ's glory. They will never fail because of Christ and because they are kept by the power of God. Christ in you (Christian) is the certainty that Once you have been regenerated (given that new heart for God) you will always be God's to the glory of God.

Praise Him! For it is Him who saves us and keeps us. Jesus gets the glory, Jesus gets the credit when I endure even unto death. I cannot endure this life without Christ, for without Him I can do nothing. I cannot maintain enough faith to keep myself, unless Christ gives me the strength (and He does and will) I will fail. Born of God is all about glorifying God, not man. This is why you do not boast against the branches, you are nothing apart from what Christ has done for you.

If I stand, and I will, it is because Christ kept me standing, not I.

You must understand the purpose of regeneration. Otherwise you are looking at Christianity as a religion of do's and don't's to get to heaven. You make Christianity just another religion. God hates religion. God made the way through a relationship, a Father and son relationship through rebirth.

YOU MUST LEARN THE REASON FOR REGENERATION. Then and only then will you understand why salvation begins and ends with Jesus Christ. A new heart created for Christ will not fail because Christ is in the equasion! The old "self" is gone! The new creature is set on Christ. This is the work of God, not man. Salvation is God's work to complete in you and he promisess he will do it!

I must stop now, I could go on and on but I must get to work. God Bless! Please pray and ask God to help you underrstand the rebirth.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: I must stop now,

HP:Very good.:thumbs: You need to stop and find someone to explain my last post to you.

 

[steaver]

HP:Very good.:thumbs: You need to stop and find someone to explain my last post to you.

Your post is understood and has be refuted! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

When you tell me why Adam sinned, I might be able to tell you why one would stop being obedient as you asked. I believe we both would agree that such a question is in reality meaningless, for even Christ seemed to be baffled at the reasons why those that rejected His overtures of love did so, as he cried over Jerusalem. I could say selfishness is at the heart of any such rejection, but there will always remain an unanswered ‘but why?’ at least in this world and possibly even in the world to come. Our job is to see that it may never to be so in our own lives by remaining obedient to God. :thumbs:

I never asked you why one would stop being obedient. Obedience is not what saves nor does it maintain a justification before God. The Jews in general rejected Jesus as Messiah and Lord over them. Those today who reject Jesus reject Jesus as Lord over them, they do not believe. My question has nothing to do with sin. Here it is again;

"If you are about to be killed, what advantage would it be to stop believing in Christ?"

I did not ask "what advantage would it be to be disobedient to Christ?" One is about to die, not pondering fornication, or theivery, or idolatry, or drunkenness, or any other sin but is facing iminnent death. It would be totally illogical to believe that one would, if possible, stop believing in Jesus at such a point. On the contrary, it would be the most advantageous time to call on God for salvation!

Adam's situation has nothing to do with Matt 24's situation. What you are failling to comprehend is regeneration. Unless you come to an understanding of what regeneration consist of and God's purpose for regeneration you will continue to misapply scriptures such as Matt 24.

Our job is to see that it may never to be so in our own lives by remaining obedient to God.

Obedience will not save you. Ye must be born-again!

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Obedience will not save you. Ye must be born-again!

HP: I agree fully with that statement, BUT I can also tell you that neither will anyone be saved apart from obedience.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[steaver]

HP: I agree fully with that statement, BUT I can also tell you that neither will anyone be saved apart from obedience.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

BUT, do not mislead the student. Obedience is evidence of faith (James2) it does not play any justification of the soul before our Holy God (Acts13:39, Ro 3&4, Gal 2&3&5). Obedience justifies the faith, but not the sinner before God who can see all things and knows all things. The obedience justifies your professed faith before men and is profitable to you and others around you. James is calling for an examination of oneself just as Paul did (2Cor13).

That aside, this has nothing to do with OSAS. Those truly born again will give evidence of faith. If they are pretending, playing church, it will be manifest in their lives and God knows them who are truly His.

Matt 24 is speaking expressly of those dragged out to be beaten and killed for their faith in Christ. They are not given a choice to stop believing and live. The scripture states "shall kill you". The passage is an exortation that even though this will happen to you "he that endures unto the end shall be saved". Enduring faith is not in focus anywhere in the passage. The enduring is the torture and death these will endure at the time spoken of. You are flat out misusing this passage to claim believers can stop believing or be disobedient while being tortured unto death and lose their state of salvation. It simply is not expressed in the passage. Not to mention it goes against God's promises to deliver and keep the believer from enduring more than they can bear.

Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Obedience is evidence of faith (James2)

HP: This is a half truth. Certainly one that has faith is obedient, and their obedience is proof of their faith, but obedience is a condition of salvation, without which no one can or will be saved. God calls on men to repent, which takes an act of the will that is not coerced or forced. Man has to voluntarily obey God via repentance, without which no man shall ever entertain a hope of eternal life, nor ever exercise saving faith. Obedience lies antecedent and subsequent to saving faith. To imply , as Steaver does, that obedience lies only subsequent to faith, is a half truth at best.

Steaver: it does not play any justification of the soul before our Holy God (Acts13:39, Ro 3&4, Gal 2&3&5).

HP: Obedience is not the grounds of our salvation, nor is obedience, including repentance, that which brought into existence the possibility of men being saved. God’s mercy devised the plan whereby men could be saved, and it was God alone that set forth the conditions for man to fulfill, without which no one could be saved. Grounds of salvation are thought of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of.” We are saved for the sake of God’s mercy, but His mercy does not 'in and of itself' secure the salvation of any. God has chosen conditions for man to fulfill, NOT thought of in the sense that for the sake of, but rather always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which.' We are NOT saved for the sake of our repentance and obedience, but neither will we saved apart from them. Your persistent failure to comprehend and apply the clear distinction between the grounds of salvation and the chosen conditions by which God implements and mandates that man comply with in order to make His offer of mercy effective in the life of the individual, is a source of your misunderstanding of the nature and the manner in which our justification is made possible and how it is finally accomplished.

Who knows what you mean by the words, “’does not play any justification of the soul before our Holy God.” If you are saying that our repentance and obedience plays no part in the justification ‘process,’ I would certainly disagree. Without ones repentance and obedience no justification on the part of that particular individual, refusing to comply with God’s mandated conditions, will ever take place. Just the same, our obedience is again NOT the grounds of salvation, but rather the fulfillment of the conditions that God states ‘without which’ no man shall be saved. God provided the grounds or means by which salvation is made possible, i.e., by His mercy and the shed blood of Christ, but those important aspects of salvation saves no one 'in and of themselves.' God provides the plan and the means by which it shall be made possible for all, but again, that secures the salvation of no one. Only as we hear the gospel proclaimed, and are obedient voluntarily to its stated conditions of belief and repentance, is salvation accomplished at it's hope made sure to our soul.

Steaver: Obedience justifies the faith, but not the sinner before God who can see all things and knows all things.

HP: You have it absolutely backwards. You have to be obedient to have and exercise saving faith. Your comment seems to indicate that one can have faith antecedent to obedience which is simply not the case.

Steaver: The obedience justifies your professed faith before men and is profitable to you and others around you. James is calling for an examination of oneself just as Paul did (2Cor13).

HP: You will never have saving faith without being obedient first. Again you seem to indicate that one can be in possession of saving faith without or antecedent to obedience. That is never the case. First obedience, and then God grants to us salvation with its corresponding assurance by faith.

Steaver: That aside, this has nothing to do with OSAS. Those truly born again will give evidence of faith. If they are pretending, playing church, it will be manifest in their lives and God knows them who are truly His.

HP: If there is one thing wrong with Calvinism, it is the point that Steaver consistently makes. They have faith and obedience absolutely backwards. We are not obedient because we are saved, we are saved 'subsequent to' obedience. That in NO way implies that we are saved by works, or that obedience on our part is the grounds of our salvation. That is a false paper duck, a false accusation by the Calvinist to evidently try and make their opponents appear as being suggestive of that, when in reality such is not the case.

If one wonders why they entertain a false view of salvation, it is primarily due to a false ‘literal payment’ view of the atonement, one not supported in Scripture or reason. Such a view makes salvation accomplished antecedent to repentance and obedience, when Scripture clearly states otherwise. Let me be perfectly clear. No man is saved or has saving faith antecedent to their obedient act of repentance. God died for all and paid the price for the sins of all, in that any and all that would hear and OBEDIENTLY REPENT IN FAITH, looking to the atonement made by Christ on the cross in faith as an atonement for their sins, ‘would be’ saved, NOT, and I say again, NOT that they already were saved and just came to recognize that fact, as is falsely proposed by the Calvinistic point of view.
When we repent and become obedient to the faith, that is the point and time we are saved in the sense of entering into our hope of eternal life. Salvation is NOT accomplished antecedent to that point in reference to any individual as the Calvinist in reality maintans. The plan of salvation was certainly made antecedent to our repentance and faith, i.e. the plan was formed and the way made possible for God to forgive the sinner, but not until we act in repentance and faith is any salvation secured as our individual hope.

Let the reader make no mistake. The Calvinist notion of OSAS is indeed at the heart of this discussion, without which Steaver could not maintain anything he has presented. This discussion has everything to do with the false notion of OSAS and how it is established by the Calvinist. As I pointed out it is based for one on a false notion of a literal payment theory. That lies at the heart of OSAS and the heart of this discussion or eternal life and how it is accomplished. If OSAS is in error, as I believe Scripture clearly indicates, so goes the whole Calvinistic notion of faith prior to obedience, or that obedience is simply a result of faith as Steaver here is proclaiming.

 

[steaver]

HP: This is a half truth. Certainly one that has faith is obedient, and their obedience is proof of their faith, but obedience is a condition of salvation, without which no one can or will be saved. God calls on men to repent, which takes an act of the will that is not coerced or forced. Man has to voluntarily obey God via repentance, without which no man shall ever entertain a hope of eternal life, nor ever exercise saving faith. Obedience lies antecedent and subsequent to saving faith. To imply , as Steaver does, that obedience lies only subsequent to faith, is a half truth at best.

Your statement is also a half truth. I totally agree with this statement as long as "obedience" is defined as the repenting of trusting in anything other than Jesus Christ for one's salvation.

Act 17:29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Act 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Thus, what you said would be certainly right, obedience is antecedent to conversion. As long as you define obedience as I said above and not obedience to God's laws.

After one repents (turns to Jesus Christ) through obedience to God's word to do so, then and only then will God regenerate the soul and give the soul the eternal seal of the Holy Spirit.

Then obedience to Jesus' commands is an attribute of the born-again believer in Christ. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph 2:10).

We become "in Christ" and have a new heart created for Christ.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This should pretty much clear things up as to how I view the scriptures view on obedience pertaining to salvation. So your Calvinism angle is out.

:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Your statement is also a half truth. I totally agree with this statement as long as "obedience" is defined as the repenting of trusting in anything other than Jesus Christ for one's salvation.

HP: It is one thing to call something a half truth and yet another to logically or Scripturally set forth evidence that it is. I see nothing in your post to establish your remark other than you saying it is so. What gives you the right to limit obedience as you do? Does not God call upon man to trust Him to save them? Why is it not obedience on the part of man to do so??

Steaver: Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

HP: As I recall it was you in a former post, was it not, that mentioned the following verse? Jas 3:1 ¶ My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

I do not remember you responding to the statement I made at that time. Could you tell the list just which one of these verse you believe is truth, or reconcile the two in light of the first one you mentioned above? Thanks.