Yea, verily, The Lord knows them that are His. They will never perish. They have passed from death unto life.
Selah,
Bro. James
Selah,
Bro. James
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"Eternal life" - what Calvinists don't want you to know
- Thread starter Ben Elohim
- Start date
Wes Outwest
New Member
Not until they die! For it is appointed unto man once to die then the believers pass from death unto life and the unbelievers are judged and cast into the second death!
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi JohnP;
Notices this word "believes" Do you really think that even if you no longer believe you will still be saved. You deny the fact that God gave man the ability to choose what He wants to believe. Sometimes men change there minds and become an unfruitful branch and they are broken off and dry up and are burned
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
Notices this word "believes" Do you really think that even if you no longer believe you will still be saved. You deny the fact that God gave man the ability to choose what He wants to believe. Sometimes men change there minds and become an unfruitful branch and they are broken off and dry up and are burned
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
ILUVLIGHT.
As you judge me so I judge you and find that you come short when you are judging other men's hearts. I don't believe it possible to deny in your heart that God has done a work of some kind in there and on that when He has done so.
Our good works were also predestined along with us. We have nothing to do in this salvation but praise God. You miss out on that because the only god you have makes you praise yourself!
I believe He will never leave me or foresake me. I believe my sins have been forgiven.
You do not believe your sins have been forgiven nor do you believe the word of God. He will never leave me. He will never foresake me. I do believe in Christ. When He says my sins have been forgiven then my sins have been forgiven because I beieve in Him. Simple isn't it?
That is what I want you to know.
johnp.
Regardless of anything else I wonder why you kick up such a fuss because God is generous.
As you judge me so I judge you and find that you come short when you are judging other men's hearts. I don't believe it possible to deny in your heart that God has done a work of some kind in there and on that when He has done so.
I believe He will never leave me or foresake me. I believe my sins have been forgiven. I am the temple of my God how can I not believe?
I do so deny and for this I contend with you. PS 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in me to will and to act according to his good purpose. Eph 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Our good works were also predestined along with us. We have nothing to do in this salvation but praise God. You miss out on that because the only god you have makes you praise yourself!
I believe He will never leave me or foresake me. I believe my sins have been forgiven.
You do not believe your sins have been forgiven nor do you believe the word of God. He will never leave me. He will never foresake me. I do believe in Christ. When He says my sins have been forgiven then my sins have been forgiven because I beieve in Him. Simple isn't it?
That is what I want you to know.
johnp.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi JohnP;
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
If you surrender to His wis will yes.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Then why aren't you doing good works?
You accuse me of judging you then you make a judgement of me;
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
I don't claim to be perfect JohnP. I have faults. I admit it. Think about the scripture above and stop accusing me of your own problems.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Generous He is stupid He is not.
Where did I judge you JohnP? Is it judging to know man can and does change His mind. It is you who judge there hearts when you claim they were never saved.
Simple just stop loving Him the way many women stop loving there husbands
Yes I know and with out scriptural support.
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
If you surrender to His wis will yes.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Then why aren't you doing good works?
You accuse me of judging you then you make a judgement of me;
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
I don't claim to be perfect JohnP. I have faults. I admit it. Think about the scripture above and stop accusing me of your own problems.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
ILUVLIGHT.
preach to me; Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
But my judgement is not false is it? If you believe you can fall away then you cannot believe Jesus died for your sins. If you don't believe Jesus died for your sins then He did not die for your sins simple isn't it?
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Why are you so blind? Because God has made you so. If He wills in my will then I will willingly but how can I will willingly until He wills willing into my heart? Your words are meaningless.
He works in me to will and to do.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
The 'Do not be afraid' is a command. You are not saved, you say so yourself, why you accuse me of calling you what you call yourself? You must either live in fear of falling short or trusting in your own selfrighteousness to get you through and either way you will die.
You do not believe your sins have been forgiven nor do you believe the word of God. He will never leave me. He will never foresake me. I do believe in Christ. When He says my sins have been forgiven then my sins have been forgiven because I beieve in Him. Simple isn't it? Answer the question.
johnp.
You ask me; Then why aren't you doing good works? Then
preach to me; Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
But my judgement is not false is it? If you believe you can fall away then you cannot believe Jesus died for your sins. If you don't believe Jesus died for your sins then He did not die for your sins simple isn't it?
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Why are you so blind? Because God has made you so. If He wills in my will then I will willingly but how can I will willingly until He wills willing into my heart? Your words are meaningless.
He works in me to will and to do.
Then why aren't you doing good works? That is just another denial of scripture. The scripture says I do.
Do you imagine that you can compare God and man in this way?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
The 'Do not be afraid' is a command. You are not saved, you say so yourself, why you accuse me of calling you what you call yourself? You must either live in fear of falling short or trusting in your own selfrighteousness to get you through and either way you will die.
I speak as I find. You deny the very word that brings life! "I shall never leave you or foresake you." This He said to me. You say, "Don't believe that rubbish." Therefore I judge you and say that you are not a made righteous, blameless or holy because you fail to recognise His Masters voice.
I believe He will never leave me or foresake me. I believe my sins have been forgiven.
You do not believe your sins have been forgiven nor do you believe the word of God. He will never leave me. He will never foresake me. I do believe in Christ. When He says my sins have been forgiven then my sins have been forgiven because I beieve in Him. Simple isn't it? Answer the question.
johnp.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi JohnP;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
What you have is a critical spirit. You first Judge me and then accuse me of your own problems.
Critisim is not good works John boy it's called hypocrisy. Where do you get the idea you're perfect enough to take that speck out of my eye when you still have the board of Critisim in your own eye. I pray that you'll understand what I'm trying to get you to see.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
Wes,
And if evil IS NOT an option from which one can choose?
Wes, is there a little light shining in that darkness? THAT'S the whole point of this arguement !! All you did is express what God is going to do in heaven, what Calvinists say He is doing for good on earth ! Why is it easy for you to say God will limit our ability in heaven to "choose" evil in heaven, but GOD can not do the same for man in his nature to choose good on earth! It's the exact same arguement!
You are correct! Man WILL not (in his glorified nature) have the ability to choose evil in heaven AS MUCH AS he does NOT have the ability to choose GOOD (in his fleshly nature) on earth?
As Augustine said
BEFORE FALL - Posse paccare Posse non peccare
AFTER FALL - Non posse non peccare
AFTER SALVATION - Posse paccare posse non peccare
AFTER GLORIFICATION - NON PECCARE !
God has the right, and power to determine our abilities and inabilities, and when those powers are granted and taken.
He gives some to have the ability to desire Him and some the INability to to desire HIm.
And if evil IS NOT an option from which one can choose?
Wes, is there a little light shining in that darkness? THAT'S the whole point of this arguement !! All you did is express what God is going to do in heaven, what Calvinists say He is doing for good on earth ! Why is it easy for you to say God will limit our ability in heaven to "choose" evil in heaven, but GOD can not do the same for man in his nature to choose good on earth! It's the exact same arguement!
You are correct! Man WILL not (in his glorified nature) have the ability to choose evil in heaven AS MUCH AS he does NOT have the ability to choose GOOD (in his fleshly nature) on earth?
As Augustine said
BEFORE FALL - Posse paccare Posse non peccare
AFTER FALL - Non posse non peccare
AFTER SALVATION - Posse paccare posse non peccare
AFTER GLORIFICATION - NON PECCARE !
God has the right, and power to determine our abilities and inabilities, and when those powers are granted and taken.
He gives some to have the ability to desire Him and some the INability to to desire HIm.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Once this has taken place do you think that there will be evil, or sin, or disobedience in Heaven?
Let's look at the parable of the sower and how this relates to the discussion.
In Mathew 13 starting with verse 3(b):
"Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:"
This is the hearer of the word who may think it all sounds good, but doesn't really understand it and soon forgets about it.
The passage continues
"5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."
These people, I think, are those who hear and get really interested, and even appear to accept Christ, but they don't last long, getting caught up in the temptations of the world and forsaking Christ. These people were never truly saved! This is why they wither away! On what do I base this? They had no root in the gospel.
Remember, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. It is certainly possible for a person to think himself into accepting Christ without any true repentance. Without repentence there is no forgiveness.
And we go on:
"7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:"
Another case were we have the appearance of one truly saved - for a time. He may act like a Christian for a long time, but his faith is lacking. He never trusts in Christ and when the cares of the world strike, he is gone. I would say that this one also never truly believed.
And least and most defintely not least:
"8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold."
Now we have the true sheep of His pasture. These are the ones that are given to Christ by the Father of which He will not lose one. This is the group that will persevere to the end, not by their own effort (though they will necessarily work in the service of their King), but through the grace of God, and His mercy and His power that will carry them through.
We look at various passages about making sure of our salvation and they are important. I think that they reason they are there is that we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why? Because how else can we know for sure the state of our own heart? Can our heart fool us into thinking we have the Spirit's witness in us? I would submit that we have seen this in the extreme case in people who have claimed visions and other special revelations from God. We need to do the good works that were foreordained that we should perform them. This is our assurance of the Spirit's presence in us, that we want to do them and are able to do them.
Those who believe that the choice is 100% man's should ask the question of themselves that I ask. If man's heart is deceitful and deperatly wicked, and unknowable as well (see Jeremiah 17:9), how can a man trust himself that he has truly made the choice and are not simply deceiving ourselves? I think there will be many in the last day who will fall into the category of people who deceived themselves into thinking they were Christians. When they meet Him face to face, and He says "Depart from me, I never knew you" they will discover the deception of their own heart.
Praise be to God who is the author and finisher of my faith!
In Mathew 13 starting with verse 3(b):
"Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:"
This is the hearer of the word who may think it all sounds good, but doesn't really understand it and soon forgets about it.
The passage continues
"5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."
These people, I think, are those who hear and get really interested, and even appear to accept Christ, but they don't last long, getting caught up in the temptations of the world and forsaking Christ. These people were never truly saved! This is why they wither away! On what do I base this? They had no root in the gospel.
Remember, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. It is certainly possible for a person to think himself into accepting Christ without any true repentance. Without repentence there is no forgiveness.
And we go on:
"7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:"
Another case were we have the appearance of one truly saved - for a time. He may act like a Christian for a long time, but his faith is lacking. He never trusts in Christ and when the cares of the world strike, he is gone. I would say that this one also never truly believed.
And least and most defintely not least:
"8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold."
Now we have the true sheep of His pasture. These are the ones that are given to Christ by the Father of which He will not lose one. This is the group that will persevere to the end, not by their own effort (though they will necessarily work in the service of their King), but through the grace of God, and His mercy and His power that will carry them through.
We look at various passages about making sure of our salvation and they are important. I think that they reason they are there is that we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why? Because how else can we know for sure the state of our own heart? Can our heart fool us into thinking we have the Spirit's witness in us? I would submit that we have seen this in the extreme case in people who have claimed visions and other special revelations from God. We need to do the good works that were foreordained that we should perform them. This is our assurance of the Spirit's presence in us, that we want to do them and are able to do them.
Those who believe that the choice is 100% man's should ask the question of themselves that I ask. If man's heart is deceitful and deperatly wicked, and unknowable as well (see Jeremiah 17:9), how can a man trust himself that he has truly made the choice and are not simply deceiving ourselves? I think there will be many in the last day who will fall into the category of people who deceived themselves into thinking they were Christians. When they meet Him face to face, and He says "Depart from me, I never knew you" they will discover the deception of their own heart.
Praise be to God who is the author and finisher of my faith!
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Wes;
All I'm suggesting Wes is that scripture never tells us that we will never sin again we will be capable because we have the knowledge of it.
I don't think Adam would have ever sin if God had never place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and told him not to touch it. Up to that time Adam didn't have any rules to live by. This is the only rule he had as far as we know.
Bottom line is that it is not evil that causes us to sin but man's knowledge of it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Just because the judgement at the time, places all evil doers in the lake of fire. Doesn't mean that those in Heaven will have there knowledge of good and evil erased. When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden they weren't made to sin by Satan or by any evil per-sey. They acquired the knowledge of good and evil by eating that fruit. But the first act of sin was touching the tree and fruit. Sin was brought to man in the garden and man did the deed.
All I'm suggesting Wes is that scripture never tells us that we will never sin again we will be capable because we have the knowledge of it.
I don't think Adam would have ever sin if God had never place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and told him not to touch it. Up to that time Adam didn't have any rules to live by. This is the only rule he had as far as we know.
Bottom line is that it is not evil that causes us to sin but man's knowledge of it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Amen, Johnp. Preach on.
All the praise and glory goes to the Lord.
How sad--working to maintain salvation-- that cannot be done folks--all of OUR righteousness is as filthy rags--before and after salvation--only those things done in Christ Jesus' righteousness will abide. See I Cor. Ch. 3--the part about those with the "burned up" works.
"He himself shall be saved--yet so as by fire"(not purgatory)--that's the Bema Seat; and it won't take long.
Selah,
Bro. James
All the praise and glory goes to the Lord.
How sad--working to maintain salvation-- that cannot be done folks--all of OUR righteousness is as filthy rags--before and after salvation--only those things done in Christ Jesus' righteousness will abide. See I Cor. Ch. 3--the part about those with the "burned up" works.
"He himself shall be saved--yet so as by fire"(not purgatory)--that's the Bema Seat; and it won't take long.
Selah,
Bro. James
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Bro James;
I don't think you know what I believe then, because I do not work to maintain my Salvation. I persevere, or continue in Him because He is my Savior.
Preaching the gospel is work because it is for the good of others. What one does for them selves is not considerd a benevolent action and there fore is not a work for God. It is work for God that you are talking about.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
I don't think you know what I believe then, because I do not work to maintain my Salvation. I persevere, or continue in Him because He is my Savior.
Preaching the gospel is work because it is for the good of others. What one does for them selves is not considerd a benevolent action and there fore is not a work for God. It is work for God that you are talking about.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Wes Outwest
New Member
Bro. James, have you ever suffered the loss of all you "owned" by fire? The only feeling you have left for a long time, until you can recoup, is total devastation! That is the meaning of "He himself shall be saved--yet so as by fire".
Have you ever gone to a birthday party where "gifts" were expected but you didn't bring one? You felt rather awkward didn't you?
When our works (deeds) are tested as if by fire, only those of value by God's standard will be rewarded, and those works we will lay at Jesus' Feet. All evil works will be consumed in the "fire" like wood, hay, and stubble are consumed by fire, leaving nothing but worthless ash, with nothing to lay at Jesus' feet.
So, Yes, we are to work out our salvation, and that includes doing good works which will increase our faith in God, and therefore keep our salvation. If we do not work out our salvation, we risk losing our faith and thus our salvation!
Muscles that are not exercised atrophe and die! Faith not exercised, does the same thing.
Jesus said He paid it all--salvation is secure--He lost none that were given Him--save Judas Iscariot--who was not one of the sheep.
What part are we to pay? And how do we know if and when we have paid enough?
Blessed Assurance: Jesus paid my ransom,and He will never leave me nor forsake me.
All our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Selah,
Bro. James
What part are we to pay? And how do we know if and when we have paid enough?
Blessed Assurance: Jesus paid my ransom,and He will never leave me nor forsake me.
All our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Selah,
Bro. James
Wes Outwest
New Member
Do you equate Atonement and Salvation?
Ya cain't have one without the other, but they are not the same!
Atonement is payment by one of a debt owed by another, or the one taking the punishment of the other.
Salvation is one snatching another from the clutches of eminent doom.
It is by Jesus' atonement for sin that we sinners can, through faith, be saved!
There is only one requirement levied against man, and that requirement is that we have faith in God the Son, and since the Father and the Son are one, we have faith in God the father through the Son. Jesus told us that if we have faith "even in his name" that we have enough faith to be saved.
Faith is not a 'work' or Paul would not have told the Ephesians that Salvation is not of works, but is through faith!
It is true that God does not forsake those who have faith in Him and Jesus the Son, HOWEVER, if we stop having faith in HIM and or HIS SON, He no longer has an obligation to his Promise to never leave us nor forsake us. That is where Calvinists always lose the arguement, because they believe that man cannot lose faith in God!
The Blessed assurance is this: So long as you have faith in God, HE will never leave you nor forsake you. But if you of your own will, jump off the Glory bound train, YOU LOSE!
You are right about man's righteousness. But, as with Abraham, HIS FAITH IN GOD was counted as Righteousness in GOD's eyes! It was Abraham's faith, not God's faith that saved Abraham! It is no different with all of us today! It is our faith through which we are saved! No, we do not do the saving, but it is our faith that God sees as our righteousness and he thereby graciously saves us.
Wes Outwest
New Member
How can faith not be exercised?
johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Faith without works is dead!
