"Eternal life" - what Calvinists don't want you to know

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by OSAS:
Last I checked, it was by "God's saving grace". As soon as we claim that we are not saved for some reason or another, aren't we putting "Salvation" in man's hands, and taking the grace away from God?

Open your eyes OSAS, We human sinners are saved through our faith in God, BY GOD who is abiding in HIS GRACE toward HIS Creation!

Grace has no power to save, else the grace that you have in you could save you!

Faith has no power to save, else you could have faith in anything and be saved!

It is God alone who does the saving, and HE saves only those who have faith in HIM!

For lack of Knowledge my people perish! signed, GOD!

 

[OSAS]

So The book of Romans has no chapter 8 in it? It simply goes from chapter 7 to chapter 9????

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by OSAS:
So The book of Romans has no chapter 8 in it? It simply goes from chapter 7 to chapter 9????

If you are addressing this to me, go get an understanding of Grace then come back and tell me exactly how GRACE has any power to save! Explain the true essence of Grace, Define it! Make it applicable to what you say it can do.

OSAS, You have grace, you show it toward others, why doesn't your grace save?

Why do you insist that God's grace has the power to save if your grace cannot?

 

[OSAS]

Feel free to let me know when you have actually both read my first post on page 4, and Romans chapter 8, then we can talk.

 

[Wes Outwest]

OSAS, I quoted your exact words, and understood them clearly. That is why I responded as I did.

You say we are 'saved by Grace', I challenge you on that! I take your statement to be a statement of your own personal belief. Therefore the challenge stands! Pong, the ball is in your court!

 

[johnp.]

Hello OSAS.

So The book of Romans has no chapter 8 in it? It simply goes from chapter 7 to chapter 9????

Just scrub Romans man they hate the whole book.

...then come back and tell me exactly how GRACE has any power to save! For it is by grace you have been saved... Eph 2:8, they hate Ephesians as well.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello OSAS.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So The book of Romans has no chapter 8 in it? It simply goes from chapter 7 to chapter 9????

Just scrub Romans man they hate the whole book.

...then come back and tell me exactly how GRACE has any power to save! For it is by grace you have been saved... Eph 2:8, they hate Ephesians as well.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Well if you love it so much, johnp, explain exactly how it works! You should be so intimate with it that you can provide every delicious detail!

It is not the scriptures we hate, it is YOUR interpretation of them that makes us challenge you.

 

[johnp.]

HaHa! You don't challenge us Wes! The very idea!

Well if you love it so much, johnp, explain exactly how it works! You should be so intimate with it that you can provide every delicious detail!

Yes I will explain in every delicious detail. God is Sovereign!

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

eagerly awaiting your explanation.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

I have explained in every delicious detail. God is Sovereign!
For it is by grace you have been saved... Eph 2:8.
You do not need to know anything else but believe is what you need.

johnp.

 

[Spoudazo]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Not until they die! For it is appointed unto man once to die then the believers pass from death unto life and the unbelievers are judged and cast into the second death!

Eisegesis galore!

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Spoudazo]

Wes Outwest,

I just sit back in amazement at how poorly you have handle the Word of God. How can you honestly name the name of Christ and yet wrest and twist His whole message?

The Bible is quite clear,
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You repeatedly twist scripture, take things out of context (as you do with Phil. 2:12) and then make some of the most bogus and heretical statements I've ever heard. Perhaps you should change your name to Pelagius.


NAU Philippians 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

 

[OSAS]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:


You say we are 'saved by Grace', I challenge you on that!

johnp's answer was good, so I will repeat it.
Eph 2:8 (Sorry john, gotta use what works.)

I take your statement to be a statement of your own personal belief.

No, actually I was using God's statement... What was that verse johnp??? Oh ya... Eph 2:8

But OSAS??? I saw no red ink there in Eph 2:8, so it could not have been Jesus who said it!

Ya know, your right! Hmmm... Maybe we sould try...
2 timothy 3:16

Therefore the challenge stands! Pong, the ball is in your court!

The problem that the "Non-Calvinist" has, is that their bible has a missing chapter. If you look in their bible, the book of Romans goes from chapter 7 to chapter 9. It seems the publishers of their bible consider Romans chapter 8 one of the many pages that are not worthy of being in the cannon.

Oh that Paul!

Why is it that the "Debunkers of Calvinism" absolutly refuse to address Romans chapter 8 verses 28, 29, & 30..?

If the bible is without error, and God does not lie, then 2 timothy 3:16 stands. Or is that verse magically missing too? (I forgot to check that one to see if it is on the Romans list of missing verses.)

Lets look at the 3 O's...

Omipresent... God is here, he is there, he is everywhere! He was there moving upon the waters in the beginning. He will be there at the second coming. Past, Preasent, Future. God is the same no matter where we see him on man's calendar.

Omnicient... He knows this, he knows that, he knows this, that, and the other. He knew what I was going to type here in this box before the world was even created! God is quite the "Know-It-All" isn't he???

Did God look into his magic crystal ball back at the beginning of creation seaching through the halls of time saying... "Ooogledy Moogledy, I see you! By faith I will save you, but not your sister Sue!" Naaa....

Omnipotent... All power, all the time! 24/7/365. Can God make a rock that is too heavy for him to lift? Sure, if that is what pleases him! Why not?

But OSAS???? How?? What?? Why??

I dunno? God is awfully complex. All I know is that Jesus Christ (2nd Adam) is Lord and Savior, he died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins, he rose again 3 days later, and now God has reconciled himself to man. Ya see, the 1st Adam turned his back on God, so the 2nd Adam decided that he was going to extend a hand of reconciliation! Thanx Jesus!

But OSAS... Thanx Jesus??? Of course you should thank him silly boy!

You Bet! Ya know, if we got what we had coming, we would ALL be in HELL! Awfully nice of God to say.. "Ya know, I think I will give this creation of mine, a little of my Grace."

Ok OSAS, you have wasted alot of SQL DB space on Baptist Board, what are you getting at???

Oh that Paul! Lets look at that secret book the "Non-Calvinist" says does not exist!

Romans 8:28 - "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."

"Called"... Didya see that? "Called". God said "You!", He decided who was going to do what, not us. God Said johnp, I want you to wave at that sparrow sitting on the fence outside of your house. OSAS said, I want to wave at that sparrow out front of johnp's house..! God said... No, I want johnp to wave at that sparrow, I have plans for him and that sparrow that don't involve you OSAS.

"His purpose". Not mine, not johnp, not Wes, Outwest. God says jump, I jump. No, you don't ask how high, God has already determined how high long before he said jump..! God will decide the Who, the What, the Where, the When, the Why, and the How. That which glorifies Him, not that which glorifies us.

Romans 8:29 - "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

WHOA HORSEY!!!!! "Foreknow"? Yup! There is that Omniscient thing! God sure does know his job huh? He knew exactly what the person reading this post would be thinking long before he created the heavens and earth. He knows me, he knows you, he knows those that are his. Let me repeat that... Listen carefully... He knows those that are his! So... Matthew 7:23 is true?? But?? Wait, lemme breathe a second.. Lemme read. "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Didya see that? "Never knew you" Never... Knew....

"Predestinate"? But.. He Chose me? I didn't choose Him???

Ha Ha Ha! Of course he chose us. Remember... If we got what we deserved, we would all be in Hell! God's saving Grace... God's Desicion to save... God's desire to reconcile himself to man... God's Mercy to spare the sons of the 1st Adam... Here is a scary read... Ephesians 1:3-9 Hmmm... I wonder if that book is missing like Romans is???

The whole 1st Adam thing just wasn't workin out. So the 2nd Adam had to come in and offer that hand of reconciliation. God offered salvation. Not man. Man turned his back on God, God offered a helping hand to come back home! God's grace allowed us to come back home. It was no desicion of man's. Remember, man turned his back on God. God decided to tap us on the shoulder and ask us if we want to turn around to face him.

Romans 8:30 - "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

God said.. I'll take that one, and that one, and those two, and that one over there, and the other over there, and that one by her, and the other by him, and him, and her, and them, and the other....

God did the choosing, he decided long ago, he made the rules, it is his. We are his. We know nothing but what he tells us, we have no power over his will, and we are lucky to be here in His grace. Jesus died on the cross, not me. Jesus died on the cross to save me from my sins. I cannot save me. Jesus died because he "CHOSE" to die. Did he have to? Nope. It was his pleasure to do so.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Wes.

I have explained in every delicious detail. God is Sovereign!
For it is by grace you have been saved... Eph 2:8.
You do not need to know anything else but believe is what you need.

johnp.

I believe. Help my unbelief.

What you posted does not answer the mail.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Spoudazo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Not until they die! For it is appointed unto man once to die then the believers pass from death unto life and the unbelievers are judged and cast into the second death!

Eisegesis galore!

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. </font>[/QUOTE]As long as one continues to believe throughout this natural life, what scriptures say holds true.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

As long as one continues to believe throughout this natural life, what scriptures say holds true.

That is not what the scripture says Wes. The scripture says that it is everlasting life. What trouble have you with once you believe you have everlasting life? What trouble have you with once you believe you shall not come into condemnation.
has everlasting life
shall not come into condemnation Has. Shall not.
Does God annoy you because He is generous to those He loves?
Does it annoy you that Jesus died for my sins but did not die for everyman's sins?
You only have yourself to trust in. Believe in Wes. Cursed is the man that trusts in man.
Jesus said, "Trust in God. Trust also in me." I read nowhere in scripture where Wes is commanded to trust in Wes. Cursed is the man that trusts in man is all I keep seeing.

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

You do not need to know anything else but believe is what you need.

I believe. Help my unbelief.

You are in error I am not Jesus!

I believe. Help my unbelief.

You are in error you do not believe except in Wes and a tinpot god that will freely not help you when God gets hold of you.

What you posted does not answer the mail.

Not to you maybe.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Spoudazo:
Wes Outwest,

I just sit back in amazement at how poorly you have handle the Word of God. How can you honestly name the name of Christ and yet wrest and twist His whole message?

The Bible is quite clear,
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You repeatedly twist scripture, take things out of context (as you do with Phil. 2:12) and then make some of the most bogus and heretical statements I've ever heard. Perhaps you should change your name to Pelagius.


NAU Philippians 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Spoudazo, Just because my understanding of the word of God is not "LITERAL" as one of your ilk insists that it must be, is no reason for you to falsely accuse me of twisting the scriptures. Where you read the scriptures literally, and take everything that you read literally, I read the scriptures for meaning, and INTENT!

You lay the scripture out on the table as one would the pieces of the puzzle and without putting them all together, you accept the individual pieces to be a "standalone" whole, while missing the whole picture presented when they are assembled.

I, on the other hand, am assembling the puzzle, and the more parts I put together the clearer the picture of God's word becomes. Try it! You'll discover truth that you never knew existed!

As for Romans 4:5, My stance has for 40 years been that man is saved by God through FAITH ALONE, not faith plus anything. That is the message of Romans 4:5

As for Phil 2:12,

Phil 2:12-18. So, my dear friends, you have always been obedient; your obedience must not be limited to times when I am present. Now that I am absent it must be more in evidence, so work out your salvation in fear and trembling. It is God who, for his own generous purpose, gives you the intention and the powers to act. Let your behaviour be free of murmuring and complaining so that you remain faultless and pure, unspoiled children of God surrounded by a deceitful and underhand brood, shining out among them like bright stars in the world, proffering to it the Word of life. Then I shall have reason to be proud on the Day of Christ, for it will not be for nothing that I have run the race and toiled so hard. Indeed, even if my blood has to be poured as a libation over your sacrifice and the offering of your faith, then I shall be glad and join in your rejoicing, and in the same way, you must be glad and join in my rejoicing.

What does the "So" refer to? See verses 1-11.
Verse 12 is explained in verse 13-18! You must do the works that your Faith in God spawns in you! Not FOR your own salvation, but because your faith demands it of you! You that have Salvation must do the works of faith. Come out from among the "deceitful and underhand brood". To do that, you must do the works of faith! If you do not, your faith is dead because you are not willing to sacrifice your own will and desires to the one who empowers you to do works of faith.

Are you lost if you don't do the works of faith? No, but you are not spreading the gospel either! You are not acting in a manner whereby others see your faith, therefore your faith for all intents and purposes is DEAD!

By the way, Spoudazo, You can keep your divisive labels, e.i. "pelagius", "Calvinist", "Arminius", I'll have none of that! All it does is serve to divide Christians into "encampments for doing battle against one another".

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Wes.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As long as one continues to believe throughout this natural life, what scriptures say holds true.

That is not what the scripture says Wes. The scripture says that it is everlasting life. What trouble have you with once you believe you have everlasting life? What trouble have you with once you believe you shall not come into condemnation.
has everlasting life
shall not come into condemnation Has. Shall not.
Does God annoy you because He is generous to those He loves?
Does it annoy you that Jesus died for my sins but did not die for everyman's sins?
You only have yourself to trust in. Believe in Wes. Cursed is the man that trusts in man.
Jesus said, "Trust in God. Trust also in me." I read nowhere in scripture where Wes is commanded to trust in Wes. Cursed is the man that trusts in man is all I keep seeing.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]What annoys me about you is that you do not understand that Jesus did not die for "your" sins, but rather for SIN. His death on the Cross paid the penalty for SIN, and defeated the power of sin that sentenced you to death. Jesus' sacrifice was not for johnp's individual sins, or for the sins of Jesus's sheep, or for the sins of "the elect", but for SIN, all the sin of the world. You suffer from spiritual myopia and will not do a self - diagnosis to see the truth!

My Faith is in God the Father, Jesus who is God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, johnp, and that seems to irk you that I do not interpret scriptures the way you have been taught to interpret them. I take my enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, not from bible commentaries made by men who put their pants on one leg at a time as I do. Not that all commentaries are bad, mind you, because some are actually quite good, but they are not Scripture, only interpretation of the same.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Wes.

You do not need to know anything else but believe is what you need.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I believe. Help my unbelief.

You are in error I am not Jesus!

I believe. Help my unbelief.

You are in error you do not believe except in Wes and a tinpot god that will freely not help you when God gets hold of you.

What you posted does not answer the mail.

Not to you maybe.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Ya know johnp, your simply not seeing the truth as it is laid out in front of you. It is you who serves a false god, not me.