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"Eternal life" - what Calvinists don't want you to know
- Thread starter Ben Elohim
- Start date
Maybe he's actually digging in some church history books and trying to find something....
THEN I can understand such a long wait... since he will never find anything. But no, wait... maybe he knows that history ALWAYS condemned Pelagius and Arminius and instead of admitting he clings to a heresy he decides to continually skirt the issue...
THEN I can understand such a long wait... since he will never find anything. But no, wait... maybe he knows that history ALWAYS condemned Pelagius and Arminius and instead of admitting he clings to a heresy he decides to continually skirt the issue...
Wes Outwest
New Member
That is the definition of a dead spirit. Anything seperated from God is dead.
johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]NOT FROM MAN'S Perspective, and you do not have the authority to speak for God!
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
rc ;
Did I keep you and you're Greek expert waitng?
That's too bad huh
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Did I keep you and you're Greek expert waitng?
That's too bad huh
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi OSAS;
It self assumed and self appointed .
It self assumed and self appointed .
Wes Outwest
New Member
You've been waiting OSAS? Well here it is! Read it carefully this time, then go to scripture and see if what I am saying is not what is INTENDED from the scriptures.
2. Who did Jesus declare to be his brothers?
Do NOT avoid the questions. Provide the scripture that supports your answer!
1. Who gets what through faith? Ye are saved through faith.
2. So what then is the Gift? (are ye saved) SALVATION is the topic of Ephesians 2:8,9, thus Salvation is the Gift!
3. Why is it not of ourselves? Every human has Grace as an attribute, not all use it but all have it! If grace is what saves, then why doesn't your grace save you?
4. What is the Gift of God? If you say Grace is the Gift of God, you are wrong! Grace is not a gift which is a transferable commodity that one can give to another any more than Love us a transferable commodity that one can give to another. (thought for a different topic)
Well that leaves Grace as the PREVAILING CONDITION that enables salvation through faith and Salvation is given freely to all who have Faith in God!
Grace is an attribute (something true of the one with it) that exhibits itself in various ways including humility and pardon. That is, the one with grace when accepting rewards does so graciously with Humility (a behavior), while the one with grace also extends pardon, a form of favor (forgiveness) to those who are offensive toward them (again, a behavior). God extends his grace to us in the manner of "pardon". We sin, He allows us to live our natural lives (usually) so that we can through hearing His word, Believe in Jesus, grow in FAITH and be saved by GOD!
Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."</font>[/QUOTE]Here you fail to recognize those precious clues about whom Paul is speaking. Here you must look at John 17, the prayer of Jesus. In it he describes those who were predestined to be Jesus' chosen Apostles, they were given to him by the FATHER out of ALL the Jews living then. Jesus personally CALLED THEM, and He justified them by Giving them the Keys to the Kingdom of God, He Called them his Brothers, and Now they are Glorified throughout history because they are the stars of the Christian world.
God's Grace is worthless if I need Faith in order to be saved. Who is God to offer something as worthless as Grace if I am not in need of it, who is God to think that He has the power to save me, if I can simply save myself with Faith?
Who needs Jesus? His death was worthless, I can simply save myself with Faith!</font>[/QUOTE]Go ahead then Save yourself, you have GRACE!
If grace did have the power to save, you could save yourself merely by being gracious in the face of confrontation. But, alas, all your grace does for you is get you known as a gracious person.
Go ahead give them each a try. If either of them has any power, and you are absolutely capable of having them both, then you could drop a quarter (25 cents) to the ground and with your grace retrieve that quarter from the ground without bending at the waist and reaching down and picking up the quarter with your hand. (no gum on the bottom of your shoe either), it must be the power of Grace alone by which you retrieve that quarter.
Same with your faith, If you have faith you should be able to cause that quarter to leave the ground, float up into your hand while you are standing erect. Go on now, give it a try. But you must have witnesses, we all must be able to see you do it! Then you might be able to convince me that Grace and or Faith have saving power! In either case, if you can retrieve the quarter, you have enough of it to SAVE YOURSELF! But, I'm not holding my breath 'til you succeed.
If you cannot do that, with your grace and your faith, why do you demand that God do it with HIS?
1. Who, out of all the characters in the bible became conformed to the image of "his son"?
2. Who did Jesus declare to be his brothers?
Do NOT avoid the questions. Provide the scripture that supports your answer!
That is a deliberate missquote of the scripture, what version of the scriptures do you use?
1. Who gets what through faith? Ye are saved through faith.
2. So what then is the Gift? (are ye saved) SALVATION is the topic of Ephesians 2:8,9, thus Salvation is the Gift!
3. Why is it not of ourselves? Every human has Grace as an attribute, not all use it but all have it! If grace is what saves, then why doesn't your grace save you?
4. What is the Gift of God? If you say Grace is the Gift of God, you are wrong! Grace is not a gift which is a transferable commodity that one can give to another any more than Love us a transferable commodity that one can give to another. (thought for a different topic)
Well that leaves Grace as the PREVAILING CONDITION that enables salvation through faith and Salvation is given freely to all who have Faith in God!
I agree that God says what he means, but the scripture you quoted is NOT GOD speaking, it is Paul a man saying what he believes, and he believes that God is being gracious to man so that man can have faith and thereby be saved.
The misinterpretation is in YOUR understanding of the ESSENCE of GRACE in that you assign to it a power that it does not have!
God does not 'OFFER' or 'GIVE' GRACE! As Sovereign God, he does not make "deals" by Offering his grace in Hopes that we...HOGWASH! God being Sovereign behaves IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS GRACE toward man, He is truly being benevolent toward his creation. Grace is most often defined as "unmerited favor", not as a transfereable commodity!
Again, you seem to be referring to Grace as being not of works when in reality in all the rest of Paul's writings, that which is described as being "not of works", is SALVATION! NO man can save himself by his own effort to do so, else the one who succeeds would have something to boast about...Look and me! I SAVED MYSELF! (crowd response) Hip! Hip! Hurray!
Grace is an attribute (something true of the one with it) that exhibits itself in various ways including humility and pardon. That is, the one with grace when accepting rewards does so graciously with Humility (a behavior), while the one with grace also extends pardon, a form of favor (forgiveness) to those who are offensive toward them (again, a behavior). God extends his grace to us in the manner of "pardon". We sin, He allows us to live our natural lives (usually) so that we can through hearing His word, Believe in Jesus, grow in FAITH and be saved by GOD!
Whoa thar Seabiscuit! Yer headed for the finish line, and the jockey is still in the gate!
Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."</font>[/QUOTE]Here you fail to recognize those precious clues about whom Paul is speaking. Here you must look at John 17, the prayer of Jesus. In it he describes those who were predestined to be Jesus' chosen Apostles, they were given to him by the FATHER out of ALL the Jews living then. Jesus personally CALLED THEM, and He justified them by Giving them the Keys to the Kingdom of God, He Called them his Brothers, and Now they are Glorified throughout history because they are the stars of the Christian world.
Faith is not something that you have to be saved to have, but FAITH in God is! Every human who ever lived has had faith in something and or someone. Faith is the substance of things hoped for! You believe you will one day have something you've heard about, or maybe seen. But, in reality now, it is out of your reach, it is something that you hope one day to have, and that hope is in reality faith that you one day will have it! God's Word has given us promises of something we want to have but we cannot see it, feel it, taste it, hear it, etc. But we can hope for it, and that is faith! It is when our faith is in God that HE will deliver on his promises, that we keep our eyes on Him, studying His word, Praying to him, Praising Him, Worshipping Him.
Not sure why you threw this in since it has nothing to do with Ephesians 2:8&9 or Romans 8:30
NO, this is another failure to understand the essence of the word FAITH. God the Holy Spirit has no FAITH to install into humans! The Holy Spirit has all the "Omni" attributes of God the Father and is indeed God! If the Father has no faith because there is nothing that God Hopes for, or that God cannot see, God has no faith and no need for it! Faith is STRICTLY a human attribute. It comes from within the man, and is based on Knowledge recieved from the Word of God!
Grace saves us. Haven't you been paying attention?
God's Grace is worthless if I need Faith in order to be saved. Who is God to offer something as worthless as Grace if I am not in need of it, who is God to think that He has the power to save me, if I can simply save myself with Faith?
Who needs Jesus? His death was worthless, I can simply save myself with Faith!</font>[/QUOTE]Go ahead then Save yourself, you have GRACE!
If grace did have the power to save, you could save yourself merely by being gracious in the face of confrontation. But, alas, all your grace does for you is get you known as a gracious person.
Oh but you Do! Because FAITH is as POWERLESS as GRACE!
Go ahead give them each a try. If either of them has any power, and you are absolutely capable of having them both, then you could drop a quarter (25 cents) to the ground and with your grace retrieve that quarter from the ground without bending at the waist and reaching down and picking up the quarter with your hand. (no gum on the bottom of your shoe either), it must be the power of Grace alone by which you retrieve that quarter.
Same with your faith, If you have faith you should be able to cause that quarter to leave the ground, float up into your hand while you are standing erect. Go on now, give it a try. But you must have witnesses, we all must be able to see you do it! Then you might be able to convince me that Grace and or Faith have saving power! In either case, if you can retrieve the quarter, you have enough of it to SAVE YOURSELF! But, I'm not holding my breath 'til you succeed.
If you cannot do that, with your grace and your faith, why do you demand that God do it with HIS?
Engines at full, phasers on stun, ready when you are captain!</font>[/QUOTE]What'd you do blink?
I said I did deny it? in John 17 Jesus reassures us that He knows those that are His! I have maintained that all along! God knows those that are His, and those who are not His, He never knew. That was a "revelation"????</font>[/QUOTE]NO silly, John 17:6-19 Jesus is speaking to the FATHER specifically about the dozen men that the FATHER had given to him. The ONLY ones who are "taught by God", save for Paul. No other man can make that claim. No one else was "Taught by God!" So that eliminates ALL but the APOSTLES! Then look at verse 20 where Jesus says, (paraphrase) I not only pray for these whom you gave me, BUT FOR THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE IN ME BECAUSE OF THEIR (The Apostles) TEACHING. Now that includes EVERY ONE OF US who were not "taught BY GOD", but rather by the Apostles. God foreknew that there would be many of us who would believe in Jesus based on the teaching of the Apostles, but He Foreknew the APOSTLES and Gave them to Jesus to teach! They came to believe that Jesus was truly from the FATHER, and that all that the FATHER has, Jesus has.
Where? I never saw it? All I saw was God saying what he meant, and meaning what he said.</font>[/QUOTE]You never saw it because you have your nose too far up Calvin's tailpipe! YOU are not receptive to truth!
Since you are looking at scripture from Calvin's perspective, YES I am going to say to you that from where I am seeing, Calvin's point of view of the Holy Scriptures is COMPLETELY FALLIBLE! And just so you'll know it from me, I am not Arminian....EITHER!
1 Thessalonians 4:9 Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, you yourselves have been taught by God for to love one another,
Also again, you love to put the 12 in where ever you want... the TEXT does not support it!!
There is no reason to be talking about the 12 AGAIN at that point in the text OR in the whole BOOK. He is talking AGAIN to those he included by using personal pronoun first person plural. It refers to those who wrote the book and those who they where talking TOO!!!! There is now evidence anywhere in the text that he was talking about the apostles... How convenient that Paul never says "the apostles" yet he talked about them SOOOO much... odd isn't it? ... If I where to talk so much about my friends to someone else I would not use "WE" and "US" . This would confuse the receivers and the readers. He would state Himself and the apostles formally or would use 3rd person... they, them, (as in apostles) but NEVER US, WE...
Grammar, Grammar, Grammar !!
Also again, you love to put the 12 in where ever you want... the TEXT does not support it!!
There is no reason to be talking about the 12 AGAIN at that point in the text OR in the whole BOOK. He is talking AGAIN to those he included by using personal pronoun first person plural. It refers to those who wrote the book and those who they where talking TOO!!!! There is now evidence anywhere in the text that he was talking about the apostles... How convenient that Paul never says "the apostles" yet he talked about them SOOOO much... odd isn't it? ... If I where to talk so much about my friends to someone else I would not use "WE" and "US" . This would confuse the receivers and the readers. He would state Himself and the apostles formally or would use 3rd person... they, them, (as in apostles) but NEVER US, WE...
Grammar, Grammar, Grammar !!
Wes Outwest
New Member
Ignorance on your part is no excuse!
What I said stands!
What I said stands!
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Wes;
What you posted stands on bed rock it shall not be moved.
May Christ Shione His Light On Us all;
Mike
What you posted stands on bed rock it shall not be moved.
May Christ Shione His Light On Us all;
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
rc;
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I can only hold my thumb to my nose at the majority because the majority is on there way to hell
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
See what I mean about being a false accuser of the breathern You do see that don't you?
What your problem is you think that the majority is alwways going to be right. That's just not realistic is it. Since Christ said;
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I can only hold my thumb to my nose at the majority because the majority is on there way to hell
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
First of all, that's taken out of context. Jesus was talking about salvation there, not theology.
So you are saying that, Polycarp,Justin Martyr,Irenaus, Clement, Tertullion,Eusebius, Augustine,Wycliffe,Zwingli,Farel,Luther,Knox,Calvin,Beza,Whitfield,Johnathan Edwards, John Owens and all the councils, synods, and catechisms produced by THE church are wrong and those men are in Hell? But YOU'VE found the truth? Hidden for 2000 years? They somehow "didn't see" all those statements of predisination, foreknowledge and justification and glorification where about the twelve in John 17, Rom 8 and Eph 2 !
I guess God's church just couldn't cut the mustard in theology all those years huh? Apostate? The mormons and JW's I guess would agree with you, but no one else would. They have to much common sense and Biblical wisdom to know better.
There's nothing more arrogant than a pupil that thinks he knows more than the one TEACHING him.
So you are saying that, Polycarp,Justin Martyr,Irenaus, Clement, Tertullion,Eusebius, Augustine,Wycliffe,Zwingli,Farel,Luther,Knox,Calvin,Beza,Whitfield,Johnathan Edwards, John Owens and all the councils, synods, and catechisms produced by THE church are wrong and those men are in Hell? But YOU'VE found the truth? Hidden for 2000 years? They somehow "didn't see" all those statements of predisination, foreknowledge and justification and glorification where about the twelve in John 17, Rom 8 and Eph 2 !
I guess God's church just couldn't cut the mustard in theology all those years huh? Apostate? The mormons and JW's I guess would agree with you, but no one else would. They have to much common sense and Biblical wisdom to know better.
There's nothing more arrogant than a pupil that thinks he knows more than the one TEACHING him.
OSAS
Member
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
1 Corinthians 11:7 "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."
1 Corinthians 15:49 "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
2 Corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
Matthew 12:50 "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
That above would be from the KJV.
Man is saved from punishment of the original sin through God's Grace via Christ's death on the cross paying that penalty. Man is then resurrected like Christ, given a new body, and eternal life for his faith in Christ.
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."
Acts 18:27 "And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:"
Grace. Mercy... If we all got what we had coming, we would ALL be in hell.
John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
Genesis 19:19 "Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast showed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
Exodus 34:9 "And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance."
Psalm 84:11 "For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly."
Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
Romans 5:15 "But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
1 Corinthians 1:4 "I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;"
2 Corinthians 12:9 "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."
Ephesians 1:6 "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
Ephesians 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved
" 2 Thessalonians 2:16 "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,"
2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"
Titus 3:7 "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
1 Peter 4:10 "As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God."
2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
God Breathed...
Wes Outwest
New Member
OSAS,
Nice job of posting scriptures.
Too bad you did not read them carefully, especially those from Gen 19:19 to the end of the post. I find nothing in any of them were God gives, as a Transference of ownership, His grace. So there is no giving of grace by God to mankind. There is however the behavior spawned by grace where in God does not destroy man the instant man sins, but instead allows man to hear, come to faith, confess sins and receive forgiveness for sin, and Everlasting life for having faith in Jesus. That is available for all mankind, not just for some nebulous "elect" that no one is willing to name! Or otherwise identify.
Nice job of posting scriptures.
Too bad you did not read them carefully, especially those from Gen 19:19 to the end of the post. I find nothing in any of them were God gives, as a Transference of ownership, His grace. So there is no giving of grace by God to mankind. There is however the behavior spawned by grace where in God does not destroy man the instant man sins, but instead allows man to hear, come to faith, confess sins and receive forgiveness for sin, and Everlasting life for having faith in Jesus. That is available for all mankind, not just for some nebulous "elect" that no one is willing to name! Or otherwise identify.
OSAS
Member
Of course... I have actually never read the bible, and all these books in my library are just for show???
That must be it!
That is too bad I guess.
I apologize for the entire House of Calvin. We do not know the mind of God, ergo we cannot tell you who the elect are.
Sooo... When I am at the BEMA Judgement Seat of Christ laying face down on the ground, weeping in shame, thanking Jesus repeatedly for the Father's Grace... What will be God's answer at the Great White Throne when you tell him that his Grace doesn't save?
Wes Outwest
New Member
That is too bad I guess.</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell me how this verse demonstrates a Transference of Ownership, the giving of something from one to another.
The way I see it, one must identify "the Gift by Grace", and no matter how many times I've read Romans over the past 40 plus years, The Gift of God's grace ALWAYS MEANS THE SAME THING, a gift given by God while He is being gracious to mankind, and that Gift IS JESUS, God's only begotten son! IT IS NOT GRACE ITSELF! The result of RECEIVING that Gift of out of God's Grace, is Everlasting life, Another Gift out of God's Grace, as reported by Paul to the Ephesians in 2:8,9.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
rc;
that they are all lost that is your assumption not mine. My Statement meant that the Majority is not right just because they're the majority of which these men you have mentioned are not. However I do not agree with there false doctrines of what we call Calvinism. A man can be and often is a heritic and is still saved because it is not what other men think of that person that sends a man to hell but what God thinks of that person. Men have nothing to do with my Salvation.Even though many men are used to preach the gospel and I might not have known about God if they hadn't and yet they are still not to be creditted with my Salvation.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Salvation is part of theology it's the base of the theology I believe in. What is it in you opinion?
Catholics and Calvinist everyone. Not to say
that they are all lost that is your assumption not mine. My Statement meant that the Majority is not right just because they're the majority of which these men you have mentioned are not. However I do not agree with there false doctrines of what we call Calvinism. A man can be and often is a heritic and is still saved because it is not what other men think of that person that sends a man to hell but what God thinks of that person. Men have nothing to do with my Salvation.Even though many men are used to preach the gospel and I might not have known about God if they hadn't and yet they are still not to be creditted with my Salvation.
You are still a vicious accuser of the breathern and only because you have no love for your fellow man. With out love rc we are nothing. That pretty much describes you from your own testimony doesn't it.
Pupil, I maybe of God's word. Master you are not even close.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike