Eternal Salvation?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.(Ezek 36:27 NIV)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I stated earlier, those who fall away permanently never were saved, never were indwelt. The person "who renounced Christianity to follow Satanism" never was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. For those who believe you can lose your salvation, show me in God's Word where it talks about being "unindwelt!"

Man of Sword, I disagree with you completely, but do not have time to go into it at the moment.

1st Lady, I think you confuse fellowship with relationship. When we lapse in our walk of seeking God, through prayer, reading the Word, or worship, we begin to lose fellowship with God, we distance ourselves from Him (He never distances Himself from us), but we NEVER lose our relationship with God as our heavenly Father once we become a child of God.

Read 1 John very carefully, particularly "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13 NIV)

How can we "know that we have eternal life" if we have to "keep persevering to the end?" We are admonished to keep persevering for our own benefit: closer fellowship with God in this life, and to receive more "crowns in heaven" when we get there!

[ July 06, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

[ July 06, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

ROBERTGUWAPO

Let me say first of all, Thank you for your honesty. You said you teach a Bible study class for new Christians, yet you struggle a bit with the Hebrews 6 & 10 verses. Praise God for you! You are a Christian man, who is honest in what he reads from God's word.

I can explain exactly how to deal with these verses...completely. I will attempt to do this in one post...although I may not make it. It is a "big subject". Here we go.

Handling this issue in Hebrews is a "rightly dividing" issue (2 Tim 2:15). I'm not sure how much you have been taught about rightly dividing the word of truth...but I will give you a quick run down of the correct way to do it.

For doctrinal truths for the Body of Christ, one should read from the books of Paul...from Romans to Philemon. (I realize Paul wrote Hebrews as well, but we won't go into that for right now). This means doctrinal truths such as salvation, justification, imputed righteousness, baptism, eternal security of the believer, etc. should be dealt with in these books.

Why? After the final rejection of the Godhead in Acts 7, God "temporarily" blinds Israel from the truth as a nation...and for the first time ever (read Matt 1:1 through Acts 7) he commands a Gentile to be preached to (Acts 8 with Philip). The very next chapter (Acts 9), God calls out the #1 enemy to the Church, Saul. (what better way to show grace than to make an apostle out of the #1 enemy). Paul is specifically called to be the apostle to the Gentiles...it is "his office".

The message he is given is a revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12). He is also revealed several mysteries that were not revealed to the twelve, Peter, James and John included. Their messages were similar, yet they were considerably different as well.

Under Paul's ministry, we are under grace. No one has any trouble with any doctrine within the books of Romans to Philemon.

However, there will be a time when the Church will come to an end. This is what we call the rapture of the Church (1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4). This will begin a time known as the great tribulation...where God will be back to dealing with the nation of Israel again, as a nation. Circumstances will be considerably different, the rules will be slightly changed as well.

People will still be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, if you will, but they will not be "kept" the same. Notice in Matt 24, the entire chapter basically is dealing with the great tribulation. Notice though in verse 13, its says:
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matt 24:13

Many who do not "rightly divide the word of truth" do not know what to do with a verse like this. Does this mean that Christians have to endure to the end of their lives to be saved? What does it mean for a Christian to endure to the end...the end of what? This question is answered simply when rightly dividing...we'll get to the answer in just a second.

Let's jump to Revelation for a second. Look at these two verses:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Again, these verses are obviously during the great tribulation...and notice how it describes believers...they that (1) keep the commandments of God AND (2) have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Many "non-rightly dividers" say this means that we SHOULD keep the commandments...but as you can plainly see...that is not at all what is said.

All these verses will come together in a second to make sense...just be patient a little bit longer. Next verse:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This verse is used in the church extensively, and granted, it has application to us. However, let's make a few points here.

First, the verse starts off with a condition..."if". "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...". Let me ask you, have your sins...past, present and future...haven't they been forgiven already...based on the blood of Jesus Christ? Does't the verse seem to strongly imply that "if" we DON'T confess our sins, that we WON'T be forgiven? How could that be? Let's go with the last half of the verse "...and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". Let me ask you...as a born again believer in Jesus Christ...who's righteousness do you have right now? You have the righteousness of God, right?

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

We all as born again believers already have the righteousness of God...what unrighteousness do we have? Yes, certainly we still have sin in our lives...and we will till the day we die. But 1 John 1:9, if you read it carefully, implies different things than that.

There are many, many more verses that can be used here to continue to draw out the point...but since this post is long enough already...let's wrap it up here.

The church, the Body of Christ, who's "primary" apostle, if you will, was the apostle Paul...we should get our doctrine from his writings, from Romans to Philemon. When you begin to preach or teach doctrine to the church, outside of those writings...you begin to tread into dangerous waters. We must understand that the New Testament is not only written to us...but to and about those who were before us (during Christ's earthly ministry), who will be here after us (during the great tribulation), and also to those after the tribulation (the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth).

Just because it is all New Testament, doesn't mean that God is dealing with man the same throughout those four periods of time (Christ's earthly ministry, the Church, the Tribulation, the Millenial Reign).

During Christ's earthly ministry...no one was saved by grace through faith in the same sense that they are now...Christ had not died on the cross yet. Our salvation is a gift from God (grace), through faith in His Son. But before the cross...eternal life did not come by that means.

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Here, when our Lord is asked what one should do to have eternal life...not one word is mentioned about faith, or grace, or trusting, or the cross...not one word. The answer from the Lord himself is "...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".

Now we know clearly from Paul's teachings that a man is saved by grace through faith, and has eternal life, and his salvation is never in jeopardy...those verses we all know...and I will not post those.

But now, after the rapture of the church, the time of the tribulation is here. People will still have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation...but THEY ARE NOT KEPT by faith anymore...such as we are. THEY ARE KEPT BY WORKS. Now...with that in mind...go re-read all of those troublesome texts, Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10, James 2, and so on...and notice how everything makes sense now.

It does not mean that the Church gets no application out of those books...but you must understand where to "rightly divide" so that you understand your doctrine correctly. The Lord commands us to be correct with our doctrine.

I know this post is "record length"...and not even 10% of what needs to be said on this subject have I posted here. But I wanted to try and lay out a few things for a brother in Christ...who serves the Lord by teaching God's word...yet is honest enough to say that he can't make good sense out of those "trouble verses".

Anyone...please feel free to comment.

 

Dear Man of Sword,

You said, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>During Christ's earthly ministry...no one was saved by grace through faith in the same sense that they are now...Christ had not died on the cross yet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume you mean during and before "Christ's earthly ministry." What was Abraham saved by? Hint: Hebrews 11 where the word "faith" appears 27 times in 40 verses !

It wasn't faith in Jesus Christ nor the resurrection, but it was faith in God!

[ July 06, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

Its always amazing to me how,when the whole testimony of Scripture is to God's purposeful, electing grace in calling to himself a people who are by faith "sons of Abraham" and "sons of God" through adoption in Christ, that the few verses which seem to speak of losing salvation are misinterpreted.

Someone mentioned earlier that Hebrews 6 speaks of a hypothetical situation, and that is true, but it is even more than that. It is a promise of fact. A promise that if, those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,if they fall away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. If this were to happen to true believers, they would be lost. And it would assuredly happen to all of us, if we were left in our own power and flesh to work out our salvation. And each of us would assuredly walk away at the first sign fo tribulation fi we were kept saved by our own flesh. But we are not kept by our own effort but by the power of God .

The assurance of Hebrews 6:4-6 not occurring is in the following verses:

9 ¶ But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,
12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself,
14 saying, "Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you."

The parallel passage would be in 1 Cor 6:

9 ¶ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Why is Paul writing this condemnation to believers? Are they all falling from salvation? No! The answer is:

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

No one who is washed clean, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God can ever be lost out of his hand.

Comfort yourselves with these words.

[ July 06, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Right on target Chris I couldn't have understood it better myself !

 

Let me clarify once again since I am commenting that Man of Sword does not represent mainstream classical dispensationalism. A lot of what he is saying is wrong for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it can't be defended from Scripture. I am a dispensationalist without apology but reject much of what he is saying. I only comment on this to encourage someone who might be "on the edge" not to be turned away from dispensationalism by a faulty presentation of it.

As I stated in another thread, 2 Tim 2:15 is talking about applying right study methods and "cutting straight" the teaching rather than distorting it. "Dividing the word" has nothing to do with dispensationalism. To me, that is the kind of weak explanation that damages the credibility of DT. DT is not promoted by the phrase "rightly dividing the word." However, if one rightly divides the word as Paul instructs us to, by properly understanding it, one will be a dispensationalist, IMHO.

However, for those interested in Hebrews 6 and a scholarly discussion of it see the following link:

Persevering and Falling Away: A Reexamination of Hebrews 6:4-6

 

For All of Those Who Said I Was Wrong

I cannot possibly comment on everything that each one of you said. I will say however, that many of you missed my point completely. I said right at the beginning, that losing salvation was not something that a born again believer, during the age of the church, had to be concerned about...because we cannot lose our salvation. You all commented as if I said otherwise. Thanks for paying attention.

A few simple questions, that I would like to see your responses on (especially Pastor Larry):

1. How does one receive eternal life during Christ's earthly ministry? during the tribulation? during the 1,000 year reign of Christ after the tribulation?

2. Can salvation be lost during any of those three different time periods?

Please show your scripture proof for your answers.

Your brother in Christ,
David

 

To be sure, the passage in reference is a real warning. Christians must understand that not everyone that makes a "decision" or responds to an "altar call" or makes a profession in CHRIST is truly regenerate. Christians do not lose salvation because true salvation is a sovereign work of the triune GOD. To believe otherwise is to charge our Lord Jesus as unable to do the will of the Father(see John 6:35-45;ch.17)Apostates do not lose salvation, but prove that they never were truly born of GOD to begin with.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fwbbcflames:
I think apostacy is through an absolute turning away from God. To forfit your salvation by giving it back to God. I know some will say this is a work, no I disagree this is a decision one can make. The same as the decision one can make to be saved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The error here is in believing anyone can make a decision for or against God on their own. No true believer, held in the hand of the Father, indwelt by the sanctifying Spirit, who has been predestined unto eternal life, regenerated and enabled to believe, been given saving faith by the grace of God, and adopted into his family can ever apostasize. John said those who have left us were never one of us. There are true believers and there are false professors.

The decision one makes in order to be saved is a grace work of God. Apart from God all our works are filthy rags, and are accounted as dung. Only by the enabling grace of the Hoyl Spirit can anyone ever be able to choose God. Even the faith you exercise is a work of God, not man.

Salvation is all of God and none of man.

 

Ephesians 1:13 reads "In whom ye also trusted, afer that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,".
It is referring to believing in Christ. (previous verse)
When you believe, you are saved, and that is a promise. You become sealed until the day of the Lord. Verse 14 states that this is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. That is us, the saved.
Once again, once we are saved we are sealed with the promise. We were bought for a price, sealed and promised to Him, and that is what is plainly stated in these verses. To believe that you can lose your salvation is to call Him a liar. If we believe that then that would mean the seal CAN be broken, and it cannot.
Gina

 

Spudgin, there are situations where you ca become apostate, and G-d will withdraw his Holy Spirit from your life. If you return he may or allow the Spirit to return or allow you to draw close again. How can you be apostate if you were never saved?
Gina

 

Hey, fwbbcflames, check out this sermon by Pastor John Piper..http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper96/10-13-96.htm

 

Hi Gina,

Just want you to know that I enjoy your responses and "fresh points of view." Regarding your statemenet here however: "there are situations where you ca become apostate, and G-d will withdraw his Holy Spirit from your life," isn't that the same as being "unindwelt?" (I made this word up ) Anyway, can you reference your claim in scripture? Thanks!

 

Gina,

Hello. A simple definition of apostacy is: a departure by a professed Christian from the true faith. True sheep of Christ will never renounce or depart the Truth. Although, I do believe that each of us should take heed and be sobered when we read passages such as Hebrews 6:4-8 because of the deceitfulness of the human heart. Put no confidence in the flesh.... cast ourselves on CHRIST alone so that we have not deceived ourselves, and evidence it in the all too real possibility of apostacy.

 

Thanks Flames. Wellsj, just give me a moment or whatever to find my concordance, since my study notes are missing the whole salvation section. It may take a little since the last time I saw it was when I was flinging it across the room the last time I was trying to post something, and since it landed near the closet, well, it's a long story.
Gina

 

Thanks Spudgin.
Wellsj, I can't find it right now. But I did think it was in 1John, butI just read it and it ain't!
Living wrong is different from whatI have considered being apostate. I have considered it denial of what you know is truth, walkng away from G-d and denying the gospel of salvation. Blasphemy. That is different from sinning and being "kicked out", which I don't believe can happen. In this case you are withdrawing yourself. IJohn 3:23 speaks of those that deny Christ. IJohn 5:16 does say that there is a sin unto death. I do believe it means spiritual.
I will continue trying to find reference to withdrawal of the Spirit. I can say there was a time when I was being willfully disobedient to G-d, and I did feel the withdrawal of His Spirit, although there was still some influence there as I did feel some guilt, but it wasn't easy to re-obtain. I'm still working on some aspects of it.
Hmm. Why am I feeling like "fresh new ideas" wasn't quite the best compliment?
I guess unindwelt is a good word. I like it. (Not the idea of it, the fresh new word )
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The above verse is in the context of the born again Christian's soul. It can not sin. While the verse below deals with the Christian's flesh: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Church, the spiritual body of believers IN CHRIST JESUS are saved and sealed in a manner different than before the cross and after the Church will be taken out. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Abraham was saved by faith, but was Abraham a member of the Lord's body? Absolutely not!
Was Daniel or Job a member of the Lord's body? Absolutely not!
Was John the Baptist a member of the Lord's body? Absolutely NOT!! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Lu 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the thief on the cross a member of the Lord's body? Yes! Because the thief died AFTER Jesus did.

If you are a born again Christian, and a member of the Lord's body, then the scriptures here says that you are greater than John the Baptist. Now isn't that a sobering and humbling thought, especially when you compare the righteous life and works of John and compare it to our miserable excuses for Christian service. Yet, that is a doctrinal truth. If you are born again, you have the righteousness of the Lord, yet will never, ever, deserve it. Praise God for this unspeakable gift. Quit trying to cheapen it by debating the matter of one's own righteousness in trying to keep it.

On the whole, we "Christians" have a tendency to think that everything in the Bible applies to us, in this present dispensation. Well, that just isn't the case. Build a bridge and get over it! Amen!