Eternal Salvation?

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How do you reconcile ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These are not difficult. Even a modicum of study would reconcile these with no problem. James's point is not that works save but that true saving faith does produce works ... inevitably. It does not contradict Paul at all. It backs Paul up (Col 1:20-22; 2 Cor 13:1-5; 2 Cor 5:17; 2 Thess 3; many more than I will list at this point). Those that endure to the end will be saved. Why? Because saving faith endures. If it doesn't endure then it was not true saving faith. In Matt 19 Christ is illustrating to the man that keeping the commandments is NOT enough. Notice he said he had kept them all and Christ had more to say. The point was about commitment. He could not be saved until he was willing to truly trust in the Messiah. The point that you have missed is the nature of saving faith. Paul, James, Peter, Christ, etc. all agree -- salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. It will bring about a change in a person's life. As one person has said, "If there has been no change, then there has been no change" (cf. 2 Cor 5:17).

On this point, my friend, it is you that needs to study the Scripture in its context. You make infidels look simplistic by your sophisticated finding of contradictions that aren't there. You are operating in a manner similar to how I earlier described an amillennialist as operating: You decide what you want to believe and then explain away everything that doesn't fit. The only difference is that they spiritualize it and you simply say it is written to some other group of people. The problem for you both is the same: There is no textual indicator for your position that it was spiritual/written to someone else.

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Man of Sword]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


These are not difficult. Even a modicum of study would reconcile these with no problem. James's point is not that works save but that true saving faith does produce works ... inevitably. It does not contradict Paul at all. It backs Paul up (Col 1:20-22; 2 Cor 13:1-5; 2 Cor 5:17; 2 Thess 3; many more than I will list at this point). Those that endure to the end will be saved. Why? Because saving faith endures. If it doesn't endure then it was not true saving faith. In Matt 19 Christ is illustrating to the man that keeping the commandments is NOT enough. Notice he said he had kept them all and Christ had more to say. The point was about commitment. He could not be saved until he was willing to truly trust in the Messiah. The point that you have missed is the nature of saving faith. Paul, James, Peter, Christ, etc. all agree -- salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. It will bring about a change in a person's life. As one person has said, "If there has been no change, then there has been no change" (cf. 2 Cor 5:17).

On this point, my friend, it is you that needs to study the Scripture in its context. You make infidels look simplistic by your sophisticated finding of contradictions that aren't there. You are operating in a manner similar to how I earlier described an amillennialist as operating: You decide what you want to believe and then explain away everything that doesn't fit. The only difference is that they spiritualize it and you simply say it is written to some other group of people. The problem for you both is the same: There is no textual indicator for your position that it was spiritual/written to someone else.

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear Pastor,

You have joined the other 98% of all other Baptist ministers, in concluding that James is speaking of "true faith". Certainly there is that type of application there, faith without works is dead.

However...there is a hard core doctrinal application to the tribulation period here. I know you don't see it this way...I've seen other posts of yours. But why do we as Baptists so casually brush off what is going to be true during the tribulation (of course with many posts I've seen in here, there are ministers who believe the tribulation has already happened, go figure).

A man during this time, the church age, is saved by faith, and kept by faith...or by the Lord, the Holy Spirit, whichever way you want to describe it.

However...a man during the tribulation, is saved by grace through faith as well, yet he is not kept the same way. Matt 24, the Lord is OBVIOUSLY talking about the great tribulation (you said I don't read the context...go back and read chapter 24 of Matthew dear brother...the whole chapter is about a time period that is yet to happen)...they MUST ENDURE TO THE END OF THE TRIBULATION....look at the context!!!

You talked about a "modicum of study" would show these things. Yes, you are right. Yet the "modicum of study" would not show it the way you have explained it.

If saving faith is one that endures to the end...one that "keeps the commandments" as you explained...then what about 1 Cor 5 where the man (obviously saved, look at the context!) has slept with his father's wife, and has been bragging about it. Paul says to turn him over to Satan, so that he may be destroyed in the flesh...that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So much for having to endure! So much for "keeping the commandments"!

Re-explain how that can be...with the way you have described it above.

You said that keeping the commandments was NOT ENOUGH!? Does that mean that its part of it? Keeping the commandments, is that part of what saves you? I think not. Saved by grace through faith. Period. Watch what you say, it can come back and bite you in the rear.

Alot of you guys talk about that a "saving faith" brings about changes...which is certainly true. You shall know them by their fruits. However, don't put the cart before the horse. Faith comes first. And faith is all that it is. Its what you are trusting in. Are people trusting in what the Lord has done, and are they trusting in Him as Lord and Saviour, alone? Or are they trusting in Him, PLUS their obedience (keeping the commandments).

Read Galatians 3
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Enough said.

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However...there is a hard core doctrinal application to the tribulation period here. I know you don't see it this way...I've seen other posts of yours. But why do we as Baptists so casually brush off what is going to be true during the tribulation <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What in the context leads you to believe that James is talking about the tribulation? And if he is, what relevance would it have to his readers? The answers are nothing and none. As I have said, you have decided what you want to believe, and then exclude everything else on the basis of arbitrary decisions. Your conclusions on things like these must come from Scripture, not from outside Scripture. The fact that it doesn’t fit your theology means you need to change your theology, not change the text.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A man during this time, the church age, is saved by faith, and kept by faith...or by the Lord, the Holy Spirit, whichever way you want to describe it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. Technically he is kept by God. However, faith that is alone is not saving faith. I noticed how you so conveniently skip over the passages I listed where Paul directly refutes your own conception. Why?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However...a man during the tribulation, is saved by grace through faith as well, yet he is not kept the same way. Matt 24, the Lord is OBVIOUSLY talking about the great tribulation (you said I don't read the context...go back and read chapter 24 of Matthew dear brother...the whole chapter is about a time period that is yet to happen)...they MUST ENDURE TO THE END OF THE TRIBULATION....look at the context!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t argue with this that Matt 24 is speaking of the tribulation. I don’t believe the tribulation was in the past for the simple reasons that what Christ describes is not what happened. However, I do argue that a man in the tribulation is kept some different way then he is now. That simply is not in the text. I was drawing a principle that is found in the passages I listed that you failed to deal with. The principle is the same; the immediate audience of Matt 24 is different than Paul’s however.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>… what about 1 Cor 5 where the man (obviously saved, look at the context!) has slept with his father's wife, and has been bragging about it. Paul says to turn him over to Satan, so that he may be destroyed in the flesh...that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So much for having to endure! So much for "keeping the commandments"! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did that man respond? If you read 2 Cor 2, you find that it is probably that man whom Paul is talking about. Destroyed in the flesh could mean physical sickness or physical death. The evidence that he had true saving faith was revealed either by his repentance or by his premature death. There is no, absolutely no, evidence that he continued to live the way he was. What about 1 John 2 and 3? Who were they written to? It clearly says that the one who says “I know him” and does not keep his commandments is a liar. He really does not know him.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You said that keeping the commandments was NOT ENOUGH!? Does that mean that its part of it? Keeping the commandments, is that part of what saves you? I think not. Saved by grace through faith.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears that Scripture is not the only thing you take out of context and misinterpret. You know that I never said keeping the commandments saves you or is a part of what saves you. You have deliberately misrepresented what I said. I am not arguing that keeping the commandments saves you and neither was Christ. He was addressing a man who thought he could have eternal life by keeping the commandments and so Christ pinpointed the fact that the man thought he had done what was necessary for eternal life. Then Christ dropped the bombshell that what he had done was the wrong thing: All of his keeping the commandments was not enough to have eternal life.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Alot of you guys talk about that a "saving faith" brings about changes...which is certainly true. You shall know them by their fruits. However, don't put the cart before the horse. Faith comes first. And faith is all that it is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Strangely enough you have just paraphrased James very well. That is exactly what he says, what Paul says, what Christ says, and what I said (not that I am on their level; I simply repeated what they said).

If you are convinced that I am wrong, go ahead and deal with the passages I listed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Its what you are trusting in. Are people trusting in what the Lord has done, and are they trusting in Him as Lord and Saviour, alone? Or are they trusting in Him, PLUS their obedience (keeping the commandments). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they are trusting in him plus their obedience, then they are not saved. Period (Gal 2:16; Rom 4; Eph 2:1-10; Titus 3:5). If they have no obedience, then they are not saved. Period (1 John 2:4: 3:6-10; James 2:14-26; Heb 3:12-14; Col 1:21-23; 2 Cor 13:5). The proper relationship is the true saving faith brings works of obedience.