Eternal security and unpardonable sin

[Dr. Timo]

Drfuss: Me4Him, I did not respond to your posts because I did not see where your posts were applicable to my part of the discussion on this thread. My discussion was responding to the OP which questioned why issues such as ES keep coming up in churches and Bible study; which implied that there are Christians in ES churches that do not believe in ES.

Being a Christian that has attended an ES church for over 16 years and does not subscribe to ES, I thought I could shed some light on why Non-ES Christians have no problem attending ES churches. Your posts did not address this issue.

The difference between my Non-ES view and the ES church I attend is a matter of different definitions and terminology. We both believe a person must be trusting Christ when he dies to be saved. The difference is how we describe a “Christian” who stops believing in Christ. My ES church says he was not a Christian in the first place or he would not have stopped believing. I believe he was a Christian that stopped believing and as an unbeliever when he dies, has forfeited his salvation.

Charles Stanley believes a True Christian can stop trusting Christ (as I do), but he believes he will still be saved even though he dies as an unbeliever (I don‘t).

So we are discussing three different beliefs.

1. The normal SBC ES belief that a True Christian will endure to the end, i.e. he wasn’t a True Christian if he stopped believing. However, he must be a believer when he dies to get to heaven.

2. My Non-ES belief that a True Christian can stop believing and will forfeit his salvation if he is an unbeliever when he dies. He must be a believer when he dies to get to heaven.

3. Stanley’s belief that a True Christian can stop believing, but will still be saved even if he dies as an unbeliever. He does not have to be a believer when he dies to get to heaven.

All three beliefs are based on interpretation of the same scriptures.
Consider the following.

Beliefs #1 @ #2 agree that a person must be a believer when he dies to get to heaven, which is a basic, essential Christian belief. The only difference between #1 @ #2 is how the person who stops believing is described, i.e. different definitions and terminology,
Beliefs #1 @ #3 use the same definitions and terminology, but actually have very different beliefs, i.e. if a person must be a believer when he dies to go to heaven. This is a major difference between these two beliefs.

As a Non-ES believer, I have no problem attending a church that believes in the normal SBC ES because I believe the same in the beliefs that count. I just use different terminology and definitions. On the other hand, it would be more difficult to attend a church that holds to Belief #3, since that belief violates a basic Christian doctrine (IMO), i.e. people who are not believers when they die can go to heaven.

I hope this helps in explaining my previous posts.

#1. The normal SBC belief you say believes that way because they know how many Churches and wrongfully taught Christians have messed people up to believe that they are saved when they never were.
#2. I dealt with in my other post. This isn't a softball game. Eternal life is never forfeited. How's about if you with your messed up beliefs in ES are fortunate enough to lead someone to faith in Jesus Christ. Some ungodly sinner slugs him in the face and knocks him unconscious. When he wakes up he doesn't know his name or anything about God. Did that ungodly sinner forfeit that persons salvation also?
Whoever taught you these things did you a major spiritual disservice.
#3. Once someone is saved the Bible tells us he is sealed forever. He has been sanctified and God already sees him in heaven. :BangHead: :1_grouphug: :applause: :jesus:

 

[Me4Him]

drfuss:
Concerning losing one's salvation, only the Wesleyan Arminians believe a Christian can lose his salvation; and that has nothing to do with committing sins or lack of works. Wesleyan Arminians believe that one can lose his salvation by, over a period of time, refusing to confess, repent and be remorseful for known sins. Your post implies that Non-ES Christians believe sins and works have something to do with retaining your salvation, which is not true. BTW, I am not a Wesleyan Arminian.

I consider myself a Classic Arminian that believes a Christian can forfeit his salvation by deciding to stop believing, See my previous post.

"Intentional" or "UN-intentional", sin is still sin,

And if you're not under the law, then no law exit that God, as the Judge, can use to condemn you.

The "GRACE" of God is "TAKING AWAY THE LAW" through Jesus "fulfilling the law".

NO LAW, NO SIN.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (law) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin (and law) of the world.

If we turn this around, we can say Jesus took away the law that condemned us, no law, no violation exist or no sin.

How can you lose salvation if God is not just "justified" by his own laws to condemn you,

Especially a law Jesus took away and God said no longer existed for those "in Christ"??

According to "LAW", God would have to backtrack on what he's said, (lie) and "Unjustly" condemn when no law exist to justify condemnation.

Even as God/Judge, God is "bound" to abide by his laws as much as you or I, or any "judge".

"LAW" is no respecter of persons, not even for God.

Now, do you understand "LAW"???

 

[drfuss]

"Intentional" or "UN-intentional", sin is still sin,

And if you're not under the law, then no law exit that God, as the Judge, can use to condemn you.

The "GRACE" of God is "TAKING AWAY THE LAW" through Jesus "fulfilling the law".

NO LAW, NO SIN.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (law) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin (and law) of the world.

If we turn this around, we can say Jesus took away the law that condemned us, no law, no violation exist or no sin.

How can you lose salvation if God is not just "justified" by his own laws to condemn you,

Especially a law Jesus took away and God said no longer existed for those "in Christ"??

According to "LAW", God would have to backtrack on what he's said, (lie) and "Unjustly" condemn when no law exist to justify condemnation.

Even as God/Judge, God is "bound" to abide by his laws as much as you or I, or any "judge".

"LAW" is no respecter of persons, not even for God.

Now, do you understand "LAW"???

drfuss: Yes, I understand law. But I still don't see where it has anything to do with my part of this discussion, since keeping or not keeping the law does not have anything to do with retaining your salvation.

 

[Dr. Timo]

It has nothing to do with it because you aren't responsible to retain your salvation. God keeping power does that. Please interpret II Tim. 1:12 for me. If the apostle Paul was used by Gods Spirit to be persuaded so should you!!!:thumbsup: :BangHead: :applause:

 

[drfuss]

It has nothing to do with it because you aren't responsible to retain your salvation. God keeping power does that. Please interpret II Tim. 1:12 for me. If the apostle Paul was used by Gods Spirit to be persuaded so should you!!!:thumbsup: :BangHead: :applause:

drfuss: I am not going to get into yet another eternal security debate. You have your interpretations of scriptures and I have different interpretations of the same scriptures. This issue has not been resolved for hundreds of years; it will not be resolved here; and I am not going to waste my time here to debate it.

 

[webdog]

drfuss: I am not going to get into yet another eternal security debate. You have your interpretations of scriptures and I have different interpretations of the same scriptures. This issue has not been resolved for hundreds of years; it will not be resolved here; and I am not going to waste my time here to debate it.

It actually has been resolved...roughly 2000 years ago at the cross. Some continue the false interpretation to this day, which I believe Satan has his hand in. ETERNAL life, folks. If we are the hinge of salavation, it is not eternal.

 

[drfuss]

It actually has been resolved...roughly 2000 years ago at the cross. Some continue the false interpretation to this day, which I believe Satan has his hand in. ETERNAL life, folks. If we are the hinge of salavation, it is not eternal.

drfuss: Webdog, perhaps you have not been following this closely. From my perspective, the issue is:

1. A person who once believed and is not believing when he dies, will go to heaven (Stanley's belief).

2. A person who stopped believing was not really a Christian in the first place (Adrian Roger's belief). This is based on our Sunday morning Bible study book at our church.

3. A Chrsitian can stop believing and therefore forfeit his salvation.

Webdog, you obviously don't believe in #3. Do you agree with Charles Stanley or Adrian Rogers? I know we cannot judge another's salvation, but #2 & #3 are based on written material that I have. Do you agree with #1 or #2?

 

[Amy.G]

drfuss, perhaps you could define "stops believing".

I don't understand how a person can stop believing in someone they have had an intimate relationship with. No matter what happens, I cannot stop believing in my husband. We have had a 31 year intimate relationship.
So, what do you mean. I obviously don't understand.

 

[thegospelgeek]

drfuss, perhaps you could define "stops believing".

I don't understand how a person can stop believing in someone they have had an intimate relationship with. No matter what happens, I cannot stop believing in my husband. We have had a 31 year intimate relationship.
So, what do you mean. I obviously don't understand.

I'll give you a real life example with a few things changed for obvious reasons. A man pastored a Baptist church for 15 years. He then was convinced that he had been given the gift of tongues and left the church to start a Non-Denominational church. Years later he left his wife and family for another woman. He is now convinced that the entire "Jesus" experiance was not real, just an emotional crutch for the weak.

So, was...

he saved once and now not?

never really saved?

saved despite his unbelief?

I was really hoping this would not go in this direction, but I am afraid it has taken a life of it's own.

 

[webdog]

I'll give you a real life example with a few things changed for obvious reasons. A man pastored a Baptist church for 15 years. He then was convinced that he had been given the gift of tongues and left the church to start a Non-Denominational church. Years later he left his wife and family for another woman. He is now convinced that the entire "Jesus" experiance was not real, just an emotional crutch for the weak.

So, was...

he saved once and now not?

never really saved?

saved despite his unbelief?

I was really hoping this would not go in this direction, but I am afraid it has taken a life of it's own.

If at some point he had genuine faith in Christ during his 15 years, he is saved. Justification is a once for all time event. Abraham believed and it was credited as righteousness. The covenants to follow never outweighed his righteousness.

 

[thegospelgeek]

If at some point he had genuine faith in Christ during his 15 years, he is saved. Justification is a once for all time event. Abraham believed and it was credited as righteousness. The covenants to follow never outweighed his righteousness.

So for clarity Webdog and Dr. Timo would be a one while myself and drfuss are threes. That will help clarify the discussion as my previous post about similarities are more between the 2s and 3s, unless someone clarifies my misunderstandings.

Not to debate, but for understanding on my part, how do you reconsile Christ statements to endure in the Revalation to John?

 

[drfuss]

drfuss, perhaps you could define "stops believing".

I don't understand how a person can stop believing in someone they have had an intimate relationship with. No matter what happens, I cannot stop believing in my husband. We have had a 31 year intimate relationship.
So, what do you mean. I obviously don't understand.

drfuss: A good example of stopping believing involves SBC membership. In a SBC church, in order to join church, one must be a believer and be baptized in water. The SBC has about 17 million members in this country. Yet it is generally accepted that only about 6 or 7 million members actually attend SBC churches. Yes, some may have moved on to other churches, But not 60% of them.

Some years ago, I invited someone in my neighborhood to our SBC church. He indicated he was already a member of my church. When I indicated that I had not seen him there, he said he had not been there for about 5 years and did not go anywhere else to church. Here is someone who, in order to join, had to be a Christian. I found out there was a problem in our church (before I started attending), so he just stopped coming. Was he still a believer, I don't know. However, there was no indication that he was still a believer based on his actions or inactions.

My SBC church would say that he was not really a Christian in the first place. However, that leads to questioning everyone's salvation at the time he makes a profession. If someone says he is a believing Christian, I will accept that he is. If he stops believing, I will also accept that also.

I don't know if you have been following this thread. But if you have, you should see that the difference between my SBC church belief and my personal belief is just a matter of definitions and terminology.

Of course if you believe like Charles Stanley who says a person does not have to be a believer when he dies to get to heaven, then it is a basic difference. For that matter, there is a basic difference between my SBC church's belief and Charles Stanley's belief.

 

[Amy.G]

He is now convinced that the entire "Jesus" experiance was not real, just an emotional crutch for the weak.

So, was...

he saved once and now not?

never really saved?

saved despite his unbelief?

You have answered your own question. The man says his experience was not real. He never "really" put his faith in Christ, just the idea of Christ.

He wasn't saved. And you can't be saved in a state of unbelief.


I still would like to know how you stop believing. Assuming one had genuine faith in Christ and received the Holy Spirit, does he just wake up one day and decide God doesn't exist? Christ wasn't really God in the flesh? He didn't really die for our sins? He didn't really rise from the dead?

What exactly is it he doesn't believe anymore?

If you have had a real relationship with God, been born again, received the Holy Spirit, how do you convince yourself that it never really happened?
I have had a relationship with my husband since we were teenagers. What must happen for me to stop believing that I had that relationship?

 

[thegospelgeek]

You have answered your own question. The man says his experience was not real. He never "really" put his faith in Christ, just the idea of Christ.

He wasn't saved. And you can't be saved in a state of unbelief.


I still would like to know how you stop believing. Assuming one had genuine faith in Christ and received the Holy Spirit, does he just wake up one day and decide God doesn't exist? Christ wasn't really God in the flesh? He didn't really die for our sins? He didn't really rise from the dead?

What exactly is it he doesn't believe anymore?

If you have had a real relationship with God, been born again, received the Holy Spirit, how do you convince yourself that it never really happened?
I have had a relationship with my husband since we were teenagers. What must happen for me to stop believing that I had that relationship?

Amy,
If I understand you correctly, you then believe one must endure to the end. So do I . The only difference between the two is how we catagorize those who do not. This I see as a minor difference, not a major division that many on both sides make it to be.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,
If I understand you correctly, you then believe one must endure to the end. So do I . The only difference between the two is how we catagorize those who do not. This I see as a minor difference, not a major division that many on both sides make it to be.

All those who believe will endure.

You haven't told me how someone stops believing. What is going on in their mind? Have you ever stopped believing something you knew to be true? Like, can you stop believing in gravity?

 

[thegospelgeek]

All those who believe will endure.

You haven't told me how someone stops believing. What is going on in their mind? Have you ever stopped believing something you knew to be true? Like, can you stop believing in gravity?

There are many things I once "believed" that now I do not. I once believed that I could get to heaven by being "good". I discovered I was wrong. I once knew that my earthly father could do anything. I learned that he could not.

Many Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Mormons. and the like have stopped believing in what they once did and put their trust in Christ for salvation.

Saving belief includes more than the knowledge that there is. It includes trusting or "placing ones confidence in". The example I gave earlier describes one who no longer believed salvation was real, Hebrews 6 descibes this IMO. I know other who were once saved, who now have no desire to be so because they feel God was unjustified in taking a loved one or similar tragedy. They have lost confidence in God and have no desire to serve or follow Christ. Many 'Christians" have converted to other faiths. You say X, I say Y, the end result is the same. They are currently lost. Unless they place their faith in Christ, they will remain so.

 

[Amy.G]

There are many things I once "believed" that now I do not. I once believed that I could get to heaven by being "good". I discovered I was wrong. I once knew that my earthly father could do anything. I learned that he could not.

My point exactly. The things that you do not believe anymore are things that were never true.

But you will not stop believing something that is true. That's why you will not stop believing in Christ, because He is true.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[thegospelgeek]

My point exactly. The things that you do not believe anymore are things that were never true.

But you will not stop believing something that is true. That's why you will not stop believing in Christ, because He is true.

Thanks for the discussion.

But some would rather beleive a lie.

 

[Amy.G]

I just remembered a verse.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


It is impossible for a believer who has received the Holy Spirit to stop believing because the Spirit is with him 24/7 testifying that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

[Amy.G]

But some would rather beleive a lie.

True. But faith in Christ is not a lie.


Gotta go. :wavey: