Eternal security and unpardonable sin

[thegospelgeek]

Only one of many divisions IMHO. The reason for such a major issue is there is only one truth and those who don't have the truth are convinced they do and will not submit to the truth because of pride.

Maybe what you should of asked is "how do we know if we have the truth?". We know it's true when it lines up perfectly with scripture and we know with in out hearts. The best way is to let God lead you to it.

Men make mistaken guesses based on what other men have taught them. The whole truth is in scripture and if we want truth we can't let our own ideas or the ideas of another to influence what scripture teaches us. To have truth we must be open to God's leading in order to receive it.

This is my opinion and no doubt someone will disagree with it.
MB

I agree with your statement 100%. But what about cases where both follow this method and end in different positions? On the issue of ES you and I have both done this and came to different conclussions. At least one of us is wrong, maybe both. This stems from the fact that we are fallible. We make mistakes.

I am sure that we differ on many other doctrines and inturpretations of scriptures. So why is it that so many people use this doctrine as one to divide us so. Most people will attend a church where the Pastor views things different than them. I have yet to find one that I am in 100% agreement with. But if they differ on ES, it seams they can no longer worship together.

Maybe the division is not as big as it seams to me. I just think it somewhat strange that the things said in this thread about the ignorance of those who believe one must endure is repeated when turned around.

As usual, I am caught in the middle with friends and loved ones on both sides of a war that I find useless.

 

[webdog]

Are you saying that we can not fullfill the Great Commision if we do not believe the doctrine as you understand it? I don't see that. I think both side present the Gospel correctly and that God's call to man is easily understood from both POVs.

I think that is accurate. If eternal life is not eternal life, then the purpose of the Gospel is pointless.

Remember, I am not speaking of a "works" gospel where God erases one's name for every sin and then puts it back when one says a prayer, just as you are not defending a gospel that teaches one can continue to live a sinful lifestyle and walk over the grace of God.

I believe a believer can live a sinful lifestyle from firsthand experience. I quenched the Holy Spirit for the better part of 2 decades. Lot is a prime example of such a thing. The point is, once something is done by God, it's permanent. Any circumcision is just that, once for all time.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I think that is accurate. If eternal life is not eternal life, then the purpose of the Gospel is pointless.
I believe a believer can live a sinful lifestyle from firsthand experience. I quenched the Holy Spirit for the better part of 2 decades. Lot is a prime example of such a thing. The point is, once something is done by God, it's permanent. Any circumcision is just that, once for all time.

Maybe I mis spoke. Can a believer live an ungodly, sinful life, never repent or turn back to God, and die in this condition and be saved? Can one continue in willful disobediance to God?

 

[MB]

Maybe I mis spoke. Can a believer live an ungodly, sinful life, never repent or turn back to God, and die in this condition and be saved? Can one continue in willful disobediance to God?

IMO All disobedience is willful. A man must be able to live in sin because we all do. There is no one with out sin because it is always present even while we are doing right. It lives in our flesh. The spirit must live in the flesh and in so doing the spirit lives in sin. The only escape is death or rapture.
I'd love to be perfect, but for now, I'm freed from it's effect. The spiritual man cannot sin, 1st Jn 3:9, because he is spiritually born of God. It's the flesh that sins Romans 7:14-17. The flesh will not be saved we will be given a new body.
MB

 

[drfuss]

Thegospelgeek writes:
"I am sure that we differ on many other doctrines and inturpretations of scriptures. So why is it that so many people use this doctrine as one to divide us so. Most people will attend a church where the Pastor views things different than them. I have yet to find one that I am in 100% agreement with. But if they differ on ES, it seams they can no longer worship together.

Maybe the division is not as big as it seams to me. I just think it somewhat strange that the things said in this thread about the ignorance of those who believe one must endure is repeated when turned around."

drfuss: I have attended a eternal security church for over 16 years and do not describe my security as the ES people do. From a practrical perspective, there really is no difference in the security of the believer. The difference is in terms, definitions and terminolgy. Most on both sides believe you must be trusting Christ as Savior and Lord when you die to go to heaven. The difference is how each describes someone that "lives for and trusts Christ" for a while and then stops trusting Christ.

There are many misconceptions about what the others believe. For example, many ES believers think that those who do not believe in ES are not sure that they are saved; or think that others believe that works or sins affect one's security. Of couse, Christians who don't believe in ES are just as sure of their salvation as are ES believers.

On the other hand, most ES believers do not realize that most others not familiar with ES, think that ES Christians believe that after one becomes a Christian, a person can stop believing and live in willful sin and still go to heaven when they die as unbelievers.

In my situation, I let them say it their way and I say it my way.

 

[Me4Him]

Maybe I mis spoke. Can a believer live an ungodly, sinful life, never repent or turn back to God, and die in this condition and be saved? Can one continue in willful disobediance to God?

Yes they can, the reason for "Chastisement".

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

To eat/drink of the "lord's supper".."UNWORTHY"..can result in your "Death", as "Chastisement". (God only chastise his own)

1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are (spiritually) weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (term for deceased believer)

God will turn the flesh of a believers over to satan for the "destruction" of the flesh as "Chastisement", if it become necessary.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Israel rebelled against God, (Jesus) as "Chastisement" are turned over to satan during the trib.

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

God doesn't change his mind where those "Elected" are concerned, Jew or Gentile.

 

[Dr. Timo]

Christians who don't believe in ES aren't as sure in their salvation as the ones that do. They are from God's standpoint, but not from their own messed up beliefs!!!:thumbsup: :jesus:

Thegospelgeek writes:
"I am sure that we differ on many other doctrines and inturpretations of scriptures. So why is it that so many people use this doctrine as one to divide us so. Most people will attend a church where the Pastor views things different than them. I have yet to find one that I am in 100% agreement with. But if they differ on ES, it seams they can no longer worship together.

Maybe the division is not as big as it seams to me. I just think it somewhat strange that the things said in this thread about the ignorance of those who believe one must endure is repeated when turned around."

drfuss: I have attended a eternal security church for over 16 years and do not describe my security as the ES people do. From a practrical perspective, there really is no difference in the security of the believer. The difference is in terms, definitions and terminolgy. Most on both sides believe you must be trusting Christ as Savior and Lord when you die to go to heaven. The difference is how each describes someone that "lives for and trusts Christ" for a while and then stops trusting Christ.

There are many misconceptions about what the others believe. For example, many ES believers think that those who do not believe in ES are not sure that they are saved; or think that others believe that works or sins affect one's security. Of couse, Christians who don't believe in ES are just as sure of their salvation as are ES believers.

On the other hand, most ES believers do not realize that most others not familiar with ES, think that ES Christians believe that after one becomes a Christian, a person can stop believing and live in willful sin and still go to heaven when they die as unbelievers.

In my situation, I let them say it their way and I say it my way.

 

[Marcia]

Maybe I mis spoke. Can a believer live an ungodly, sinful life, never repent or turn back to God, and die in this condition and be saved? Can one continue in willful disobediance to God?

The bible answers "yes" to this in 2 places:
1) Where the Corinthians were sinning with the Last Supper by treating it as a debaucherd feast and so were taken home"
2) And the "sin unto death" which is a sin committed by a believer when the Lord takes one home (like the sinning Corinthians)

God has more grace than we do for sinning believers.

28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

1 Cor 11.28-30

16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1 John 5.16, 17

 

[drfuss]

Christians who don't believe in ES aren't as sure in their salvation as the ones that do. They are from God's standpoint, but not from their own messed up beliefs!!!:thumbsup: :jesus:

drfuss: Thank you for demonstrating my point about the misconceptions of ES believers about Non-ES believers.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Thegospelgeek writes:
"I am sure that we differ on many other doctrines and inturpretations of scriptures. So why is it that so many people use this doctrine as one to divide us so. Most people will attend a church where the Pastor views things different than them. I have yet to find one that I am in 100% agreement with. But if they differ on ES, it seams they can no longer worship together.

Maybe the division is not as big as it seams to me. I just think it somewhat strange that the things said in this thread about the ignorance of those who believe one must endure is repeated when turned around."

drfuss: I have attended a eternal security church for over 16 years and do not describe my security as the ES people do. From a practrical perspective, there really is no difference in the security of the believer. The difference is in terms, definitions and terminolgy. Most on both sides believe you must be trusting Christ as Savior and Lord when you die to go to heaven. The difference is how each describes someone that "lives for and trusts Christ" for a while and then stops trusting Christ.

There are many misconceptions about what the others believe. For example, many ES believers think that those who do not believe in ES are not sure that they are saved; or think that others believe that works or sins affect one's security. Of couse, Christians who don't believe in ES are just as sure of their salvation as are ES believers.

On the other hand, most ES believers do not realize that most others not familiar with ES, think that ES Christians believe that after one becomes a Christian, a person can stop believing and live in willful sin and still go to heaven when they die as unbelievers.

In my situation, I let them say it their way and I say it my way.

Thank you for clearly stating what I have been trying (poorly) to say.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Christians who don't believe in ES aren't as sure in their salvation as the ones that do. They are from God's standpoint, but not from their own messed up beliefs!!!:thumbsup: :jesus:

Obviously from a point of view with limited exposure to them.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Once again, I am not debating ES vs Not ES. But I say that we are making WAY too big of a deal with the issue. DRFUSS states it pretty clearly that it is more a matter of terms and definitions. We argue over whether one was actually saved or not more often than there eternal home. We both agree salvation comes from faith alone. We both believe in winning sould for Christ. We both believe in living as close to God as possible and being a good witness. We have much more in common than we have in disagreement.

We can disagree about clothing, music, hair length, roles of women, etc and it doesn't seam to make a divide as big as the ES issue. Webdog has expessed why he thinks it is a big issue. DRFUSS has explained why he does not think it's a big deal. Others keep arguing points of why I am wrong and "ignorant" in my beliefs. Please tell me, Do you think it is a major issue and why or why not?

 

[Me4Him]

Do you think it is a major issue and why or why not?

It's all summed up in the following verses.

Ro 6:14 for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Ro 4:15 for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Paul had a "thorn" (sin) that concerned him and ask God to remove it,

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee:

"one sin", any sin, make you guilty of "All",

through "GRACE", we're considered as "perfect" as God, not even so much as "one sin".

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

To fully appreciate "salvation", you have to "understand" what you were saved "FROM".

 

[drfuss]

drfuss: This thread reminds me of something our ES Pastor said at Bible study last Wednesday evening.

Our ES Pastor indicated that if he was not growing spiritually, he would have doubts about if he was really a Christian.

Many, many years while attending a Wesleyan Arminian (not Classic or Reformed Arminian) believing church, the minister indicated that if he was not growing spiritually, he would be concerned that he was moving backwards spiritually that could eventually result in losing his salvation.

The two were describing the same issue with the same result, but using different words. So we are only talking about different terminolgy and different definitions.

 

[webdog]

Maybe I mis spoke. Can a believer live an ungodly, sinful life, never repent or turn back to God, and die in this condition and be saved? Can one continue in willful disobediance to God?

Yes, else it's conditioned on man. Notice what you have listed here are what man does. Salvation is done by God. Even in the OT we see that Abraham had faith, and was credited with righteousness...THEN...the diferent covenants were given. Regardless if Abraham ever kept one covenant, he was credited with righteousness.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Yes, else it's conditioned on man. Notice what you have listed here are what man does. Salvation is done by God. Even in the OT we see that Abraham had faith, and was credited with righteousness...THEN...the diferent covenants were given. Regardless if Abraham ever kept one covenant, he was credited with righteousness.

What if a man does not believe in Christ?

 

[MB]

What if a man does not believe in Christ?

No One will enter the Kingdom unless they come through Christ, The rest go to hell
MB

 

[thegospelgeek]

No One will enter the Kingdom unless they come through Christ, The rest go to hell
MB

Are you sure?

 

[MB]

Are you sure?

Yep!
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
MB

 

[thegospelgeek]

What if one does not love God?