Eternal security and unpardonable sin

[webdog]

Satan can influence, but he cannot snatch you out of God's hand through deception, disease or any other thing. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit that Jesus Christ is Lord. Our spirit cannot be deceived on this matter by Satan. If it could, then there is no eternal security whatsoever.

We can quench the Spirit, however. I believe everyone at some point doubts their salvation, some more than others. Where does this doubt come from if our spirit cannot be decieved? How can true beleivers change their theology to that of works based salvation (either front loaded or back loaded)?

 

[thegospelgeek]

Can satan influence our lucid, intentional decisions?

This is where I apply the verse that nothing can take our salvation away from us. Not Satan, not man, nor anything else. I have limited experiance with dementia patients and have seen them still worship, and seen some that do nothing. I have never witnessed one deny belief in Christ. If they did and were not aware, I would not think they have lost faith.

We are also told that we will never be tempted beyond that which we can bare and he will make a way of escape for us. This covers non-beleif also. But I think one must choose this path. I've witnessed too many walk away to beleive otherwise.

 

[thegospelgeek]

We can quench the Spirit, however. I believe everyone at some point doubts their salvation, some more than others. Where does this doubt come from if our spirit cannot be decieved? How can true beleivers change their theology to that of works based salvation (either front loaded or back loaded)?

agreed here.

Why would scripture warn of it otherwise?

 

[webdog]

This is where I apply the verse that nothing can take our salvation away from us. Not Satan, not man, nor anything else. I have limited experiance with dementia patients and have seen them still worship, and seen some that do nothing. I have never witnessed one deny belief in Christ. If they did and were not aware, I would not think they have lost faith.

...yet a perfectly stable Peter did just this...three times at that.

We are also told that we will never be tempted beyond that which we can bare and he will make a way of escape for us. This covers non-beleif also. But I think one must choose this path. I've witnessed too many walk away to beleive otherwise.

True, but having a way of escape does not mean we will take it.

Have you ever doubted your salvation? I have. If I have the capacity to doubt, why would I also not have the capacity to be deceived into thinking I never had faith to begin with, and then "throw in the towel" so to speak? This is the only victory satan has over the believer, to get them to think their faith was never genuine in order to prevent us from fulfilling the great commision and to lose all future rewards.

 

[thegospelgeek]

...yet a perfectly stable Peter did just this...three times at that.
True, but having a way of escape does not mean we will take it.

Exactlly.
Although Peter denied Christ publically, do you think he denied him in his soul?

Have you ever doubted your salvation? I have. If I have the capacity to doubt, why would I also not have the capacity to be deceived into thinking I never had faith to begin with, and then "throw in the towel" so to speak? This is the only victory satan has over the believer, to get them to think their faith was never genuine in order to prevent us from fulfilling the great commision and to lose all future rewards.

Yes, I have doubted many times. I agree that it is Satan, but not in the sense that you do. I feel if he can get you to deny your faith and no longer abide in Christ, you will be lost. Jn 15, 2 Cron15,2 Pet 1, Heb 6, 1 Tim 1, Matt 24

 

[webdog]

Exactlly.
Although Peter denied Christ publically, do you think he denied him in his soul?

Absolutely, else he wouldn't have been grieved, and out of the mouth flows the things of our heart.

I feel if he can get you to deny your faith and no longer abide in Christ, you will be lost. Jn 15, 2 Cron15,2 Pet 1, Heb 6, 1 Tim 1, Matt 24

...then eternal life was never that, nor can it ever be that since man is the determining factor. If we have to maintain something, how is that any different than working for salvation?

 

[Amy.G]

We can quench the Spirit, however. I believe everyone at some point doubts their salvation, some more than others. Where does this doubt come from if our spirit cannot be decieved? How can true beleivers change their theology to that of works based salvation (either front loaded or back loaded)?

Their doubt comes from Satan. Satan is a thief and wants to steal our joy. But doubts do not equal "stopping believing".

 

[webdog]

Their doubt comes from Satan. Satan is a thief and wants to steal our joy. But doubts do not equal "stopping believing".

How are they not connected, if the new idea of unbelief stems from doubt of the truth?

 

[Amy.G]

How are they not connected, if the new idea of unbelief stems from doubt of the truth?

Doubt and rejection are two different things. One can doubt, but the Spirit testifies that Jesus is Lord, so he won't reject that truth, if he believed it to begin with.

Do you believe you have children? Perhaps if they just disappeared you might start to question your sanity, but they are right there in front of you...a constant testimony that they exist and are your children, which is truth. Look at your children and convince yourself they don't exist. It can't be done by a sane person. That is what you would be doing if you stopped beliving in God. He is right there in you. You can't get away from His testimony of Himself.

 

[MB]

Doubt and rejection are two different things. One can doubt, but the Spirit testifies that Jesus is Lord, so he won't reject that truth, if he believed it to begin with.

Do you believe you have children? Perhaps if they just disappeared you might start to question your sanity, but they are right there in front of you...a constant testimony that they exist and are your children, which is truth. Look at your children and convince yourself they don't exist. It can't be done by a sane person. That is what you would be doing if you stopped beliving in God. He is right there in you. You can't get away from His testimony of Himself.

Very well put Amy.
A men
MB

 

[webdog]

Doubt and rejection are two different things. One can doubt, but the Spirit testifies that Jesus is Lord, so he won't reject that truth, if he believed it to begin with.

Do you believe you have children? Perhaps if they just disappeared you might start to question your sanity, but they are right there in front of you...a constant testimony that they exist and are your children, which is truth. Look at your children and convince yourself they don't exist. It can't be done by a sane person. That is what you would be doing if you stopped beliving in God. He is right there in you. You can't get away from His testimony of Himself.

It's not so much of ceasing to believe, but another belief engulfing the original. Ever see the Matrix?

 

[drfuss]

It's not so much of ceasing to believe, but another belief engulfing the original. Ever see the Matrix?

drfuss: I agree. A good point. A few years ago, I read that the Mormons report that they get more converts to Mormonism from the SBC than from any other denomination. I wonder if some of those SBC people that converted to Mormonism are still on the SBC membership rolls. Perhaps that is where some of 10 million SBC members are, that are missing from our churches.

 

[webdog]

drfuss: I agree. A good point. A few years ago, I read that the Mormons report that they get more converts to Mormonism from the SBC than from any other denomination. I wonder if some of those SBC people that converted to Mormonism are still on the SBC membership rolls. Perhaps that is where some of 10 million SBC members are, that are missing from our churches.

This is kinda what I was getting at. Some will say all of these were never true converts, but I disagree. The thorns have grown and choked out some, but I am sure some where never saved initially. That's why I think it is wrong to have a set of rules outlining who is and who isn't a believer, and why it's wrong to state salvation can be lost. If it is "lost", it was never there initially, as something eternal can never cease.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Howdy Partners

Just wanted to reply to your discussion. Can a christian stop believing or be decieved by cults like Mormons,JW's or Man came from Monkeys?? According to the gospel of John 10:5 say no way,and Matthew 24:24 reiterates this point. 1 John 2:27 explains we have a built in lie detector "The Holy Spirit",its supernatural vs natural. If a believer and a natural man heard someone say "Jesus was just a good teacher or not God himself", it would seperate the sheep from the goats by their response. :type:

 

[rjprince]

Just wanted to reply to your discussion. Can a christian stop believing or be decieved by cults like Mormons,JW's or Man came from Monkeys?? According to the gospel of John 10:5 say no way,and Matthew 24:24 reiterates this point. 1 John 2:27 explains we have a built in lie detector "The Holy Spirit",its supernatural vs natural. If a believer and a natural man heard someone say "Jesus was just a good teacher or not God himself", it would seperate the sheep from the goats by their response. :type:

JEDI Welcome! We are the Board. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. (Oh, sorry. That was Trek, not Wars.)

Kinda dangerous to establish doctrine based on a statement in a parable, but if we are looking at parables, lets look at the prodigal son. He denied his father 9by his actions); blew all of his inheritance; wound up living with the pigs and eating with the pigs and no doubt smelling like the pigs; he realized he had no right to lay claim to his sonship, but when he planned to ask for a job as a servant, the father recognized him as his son. He was never a pig, he was always a son.

Matt 24:24 refers to the Jews as "the very elect" the Daniel prophecy cited about 9 verses earlier was upon the Jews and their city...

We may have a built in Lie-Detector, but He can be quenched and grieved (1Thes 5:19; Eph 4:30).

I seriously doubt that any true believer could deny the deity of the Lord Jesus. Yet I do recognize that some believers may be chastened with physical death while still in a rebellious and disobedient state (1Cor 11:29-32).

 

[rjprince]

Here are my two questions for those who believe you can lose it.

How much sin and how bad a sin makes you lose it? (with Scripture references please)

And,

If you lose it can you get it back? If you answer yes, what do you do with Heb 6:4-6 -- "it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance"??? :tonofbricks:

 

[Jedi Knight]

Howdy and thanks for the welcome! Well I do disagree that the sheep there are just a parable. Parable had an illustration "truth inside"if you look at the context. Jesus said they WILL NOT listen to the false,but RUN!!! I grieve the spirit if I sin,and you quench the spirit by not allowing me to teach ya.:smilewinkgrin: If you you look up . quench I Thessalonians 5:19-20.....whats the content? Debate with no hate......:thumbs:

 

[rjprince]

Howdy and thanks for the welcome! Well I do disagree that the sheep there are a parable. It was an illustration if you look at the context. Jesus said they WILL NOT listen to the false,but RUN!!! I grieve the spirit if I sin,and you quench the spirit by not allowing me to teach ya.:smilewinkgrin: If you you look up . quench I Thessalonians 5:19-20.....whats the content? Debate with no hate......:thumbs:

Ok. You are probly rite (and that's as good as you are gonna get for now!) about it not being a parable. But what do you do with Gal 1, where Paul marvels that his converts are so soon removed from the true gospel to another (heteros) different kinc of gospel which is not the same (allos). They not only listened, but they were struggling.

And, what about guard the flock in Acts 20:28-29? What about the fear, doubt and confusion among the 11 after the arrest when the sheep were scattered? (Matt 26:31; Mark 14:27).

BTW, "Permanent damage to my ignorance"!!! I really like that! You and I may just become pals! Oh, reworded my welcome just a bit, for the sake of the collective...

 

[Jedi Knight]

Hey brother,I see where if some of these WERE new believers"babes" they will bump there heads,but God began a good work He will finish.. 1 John talks about stages of growth....Children,Young men,Fathers!:type: Star Wars Gospel....Luke was learning the ways.....a new babe"Children". Empire Strikes Back.. He was a growing disiple"Young man". Return of the Jedi.....He was strong in the Lord"Father".

 

[rjprince]

Hey brother,I see where if these WERE new believers"babes" they will bump there heads,but will come back.

The ones in 1Cor 11 did not come back. God took them OUT! Because they were His. Got a real problem with the way Piper handles this in his Perseverance discussion... They were saved, they were taking the Lord's Supper without properly dealing with their sin, God took them out that they should not be condemned with the world (apo-krinomai or kata- can't recall for sure and not gonna check just now, but it is the intensified form that is used for the judgment of the world and the lesser form that is used for the chastening of the sinning saints).