Eternal Security the Acid test

[The Biblicist]

That scripture is about Jesus not losing any body; however, a person can willfully leave..

No, this text is not about Jesus losing "any body." This text is explicitly about Christ not losing one single person that comes to him, which is every single person the Father gave him! That is precisely what John 6:37 and John 6:39 explicitly state.

This text has nothing to do with "any body" the Father did not give to him. This text has nothing to do with "any body" that never came to him. This text is a flat denial that a single solitary person given to the Son by the Father will fail to come to him. This text is a flat denial that a single solitary person that comes to the Son will ever be lost by the Son. This text is a flat assertiont that every single person that comes to the Son will be raised up to the resurrection of eternal life.

 

[The Biblicist]

First, a few comments without going to the scripture exactly...

"I dont think it is something you wake up one day and do, or that God just says that is it...I am done with you." What a heartbreaking way to live....never knowing if you have lost your salvation or not, wondering which sin it is that may send you over the edge back into lostness of unbelief, would God let me know when He was done with me....Where is the rest, where is the joy, where is the peace? When would you know that you had satisfied the requirements to keep your salvation? What kind of hope is that? Is it hope at all? How can that kind of hope be an anchor for my soul? I do not see anywhere in the Word that God reveals Him as having this kind of character.

God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him; He predestined us to be conformed to the image of His son; He put His Holy Spirit in us to cause us to walk in His ways; He gave us to Christ, Who said He came to seek and to save that which was lost, that His sheep know His voice and will not follow another; Jesus said He did not lose any except the son of perdition and that in order to fulfill scripture.

Warning: “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Mark 13:13). Promise: “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

Heb 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Luke 22:32 -- But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


Yes, there are warnings, but there are also the promises that He is the One who will keep us; He is the Guardian of our soul; we are protected by His power until the day of redemption...because we believed (received the word implanted); some did not believe (receive the word implanted) but let the word bounce off the fallow ground of their hearts, others heard the word and emotionally responded allowing the seed to rest on the rocky soil of their hearts but only considered it temporarily because when the emotions changed due to affliction or persecution they were chose not to receive it implanted, others considered the word intellectually for a while but in the face of the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of wealth intellectualized it away not receiving it implanted...and thus this group never were among the truly saved. Peter exhorts us to make certain of His calling us in 2 Peter 1 after he has given us the evidence we need to examine ourselves by. Paul exhorts us in 2 Cor 13:5 - "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you -- unless indeed you fail the test?"


1 Cor 15:1-2
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (eike - without purpose, inconsiderately, groundlessly, without cause, to no purpose --- Just like the commandment to not take the name of God in vain. I don't believe it means not to use his name as a swear word but rather to not take His name upon us, identifying Him as our God, without it having any effect on us or our lives.)

I am especially struck by a theme I see coursing all through the New Testament. Jesus told the parable about the sower, the seed, the soil, and the hearer. He talked about two trees. He said the tree would be known by its fruit and to make it either good or bad. Bad cannot produce good fruit and vice versa.

Deal with the text! Why should I go jumping around the Bible from text to text when you are simply doing Proof texting without demonstrating your proof text is not simply jerked out of context?

I am dealing with the text (Jn. 6:39) in its immediate context and what it explicitly states is confirmed by its context.

 

[The Biblicist]

The OP has used faulty reasoning to try to establish his Calvinist -- that is, unbiblical -- doctrine of eternal security.

Of course all who have been given to Jesus will be raised up at the last day. And those who have been given to Jesus are those who persevere to the end -- not predestined to persevere, but who choose to persevere. Those who fall away are ones who are not given to Jesus. Simple, isn't it? And you don't have to resort to a fatalistic determinism which darkly clouds the character of God.

Freedom is inherent in God's character; it is inextricably bound together with love. God could not perfectly love his sentient creation without bestowing freedom on them; he could not bestow freedom on them without perfectly loving them. We are free to accept or reject God's loving provision and offer of grace, and we continue to have that freedom if we do accept His grace. God does not then take away our free will, that most precious gift bestowed upon us because of Who God is.

Deal with the Biblical text in its context. Your philosophizing means nothing!

 

[The Biblicist]

From the OP:
"However, my point is that the question "Do you believe a true born again child of God can lose their salvation" is the acid test that determines whether a person/denomination/church actually embraces the doctrine of justification by works or the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

It is the acid test whether they are using Biblical language but denying the Biblical meaning of that langauge or they are using Biblical langauge according to its Biblical meaning.

It is the acid test whether they actually believe that Jesus Christ ALONE satisfied the complete demands of the Law in the place of the believer or he did so conditionally based upon the believer continuing in good works.

It is the acid test whether or not they beleive that Jesus Christ SATIFIED FULLY THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD against sin for true born again believers or that they really beleive true believers must stand before God in judgment to ultimately be vindicated by their own works for entrance into heaven.

It is the acid test because those who deny eternal security cannot believe or say what Jesus said in John 6:39 without changing the meaning of the words He used and thus proves they do not believe we are justified by grace alone thorugh faith alone in Christ alone without works no matter how much they assert they do - because they reject the Biblical meaning of those Biblical terms.

All who reject the doctrine of eternal security "preach another gospel" regardless of their denial.

Not including the Roman Catholic Church, most Arminians do not believe they can lose their salvation: however most Arminians do believe a Christian can forfeit his salvation."

Your obviously don't understand what most Arminians believe. Not including the Roman Catholic Church (which I don't consider Arminian since they believe some works are involved for salvation), most Arminians do not believe a Christain can lose his salvation; most Arminians do believe a Christian can forfeit his salvation.

I have not found one scripture that establishes eternal security as a sound doctrine. It would have to explicity say "A Christian can not (or will not) forfeit (or lose) his salvation". The scriptures eternal security believers present are only their interpretations of what those scriptures mean.

Deal with the text in its context or you really have nothing to offer this conversation.

 

[mont974x4]

I was simply providing Scriptures that support the doctrine that God preserves us and included a few notes. It was an attempt to show as many verses as I could think of quickly that apply, as opposed to relying on just a couple of verses from a single passage. Showing more of His Word and less of mine is often preferable in these cases.

One of the attacks of those who oppose such doctrines is to build a doctrine on a verse or two and claim that is all that Scripture says on the issue. Or accuse us of doing the same thing. I was attempting to head that horse off at the pass.

 

[mont974x4]

BTW, if you want a discussion you might try not being such a boar, especially in attacking someone that's actually agreeing with you.


Enjoy your thread, I'll leave you to it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Michael Wrenn, you certainly have done an excellent job in refuting the false notions of the OP. :thumbsup:

Amy asks,

Why would a Christian forfeit his salvation? Why would he prefer to go to hell? I'm asking seriously, not trying to debate.

HP: Why did Satan and the angels forfeit their standing with God? Why did Saul forfeit his standing with God? Why did Judas forfeit his standing with God? Answer my questions and you will have the answer you so desire.

Who said anyone prefers to go to hell? 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[DHK]

HP: Why did Satan and the angels forfeit their standing with God? Why did Saul forfeit his standing with God? Why did Judas forfeit his standing with God? Answer my questions and you will have the answer you so desire.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Read again verses 13 and 14. Satan did not forfeit anything with God; not his standing, position, not anything. He rebelled, and was thrown out of heaven, and one third of the angels with who rebelled with him. He did not forfeit salvation, for he never had "salvation." The angels in heaven look into the salvation of men with amazement seeking to understand our redemption. Lucifer never forfeited anything. His aim was and still is, to over-throw God. He is deceived and deceives those who he can get to follow him.

 

[Amy.G]

Why did Satan and the angels forfeit their standing with God? Why did Saul forfeit his standing with God? Why did Judas forfeit his standing with God? Answer my questions and you will have the answer you so desire.

I have no idea. You tell me. I asked the question. Why would anybody who is saved, knows Christ intimately, loves Him, willfully turn against Him and reject Him?

Who said anyone prefers to go to hell?

A Christian knows full well what happens to a person who rejects Christ, so if he has the free will to give up his salvation, then it must because he prefers hell since that is the only alternative.

 

[The Biblicist]

The OP has used faulty reasoning to try to establish his Calvinist -- that is, unbiblical -- doctrine of eternal security.

For instance? Show me where my exposition under "A,B, or C" where I used language with faulty reasoning???

Of course all who have been given to Jesus will be raised up at the last day.

That is precisely what the text explicitly states (Jn. 6:39).

And those who have been given to Jesus are those who persevere to the end -- not predestined to persevere, but who choose to persevere.

You are not contradicting the plain language of the text. The reason they come to Christ is because they are first given by the Father as Jesus later says that it is "given to him of the Father" (Jn. 6:65). The text says nothing about persevering to the end or choosing to perserve - not one word, not one syllable. Stick with the text and its immediate context.

Those who fall away are ones who are not given to Jesus. Simple, isn't it? And you don't have to resort to a fatalistic determinism which darkly clouds the character of God.

You are accusing Christ of "fatalistic determinism" because I made absolutely no personal comments on that point - I simply quoted Christ's words.

Freedom is inherent in God's character; it is inextricably bound together with love. God could not perfectly love his sentient creation without bestowing freedom on them; he could not bestow freedom on them without perfectly loving them. We are free to accept or reject God's loving provision and offer of grace, and we continue to have that freedom if we do accept His grace. God does not then take away our free will, that most precious gift bestowed upon us because of Who God is.

The text does not deal with the issue of freedom does it? Deal with the text. Indeed, the overal context in regard to coming to Christ denies such are free to come to Christ by the words "NO MAN CAN come to me EXCEPT the Father draw him" ( Jn. 6:44) and "except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of the Father" (Jn. 6:65).

Indeed, you are purely and simply ignorant of what you are talking about. You are not only READING INTO the text and context what is not there but you are totally ignoring the distinction between a prefallen human condition and a post-fallen human condition and they are not equal.

I dare you to be honest and objective enough to simply deal with the text.

 

[The Biblicist]

I was simply providing Scriptures that support the doctrine that God preserves us and included a few notes. It was an attempt to show as many verses as I could think of quickly that apply, as opposed to relying on just a couple of verses from a single passage. Showing more of His Word and less of mine is often preferable in these cases.

One of the attacks of those who oppose such doctrines is to build a doctrine on a verse or two and claim that is all that Scripture says on the issue. Or accuse us of doing the same thing. I was attempting to head that horse off at the pass.

I am trying to avoid the very thing you are doing. Why? Because when you start jumping here and there, it becomes an endless merry-go-round.

The problem with these fella's is that they only respond through "proof texts" which are never addressed in context. I am throwing a proof text (Jn. 6:39) but I am also willing and able to deal with it in its context. Until we do that first, there is no sense in just jumping to another text because once you begin that, there is no end of it.

That is precisely what they want to do - keep jumping from text to text and NEVER DEAL WITH ANY TEXT IN ITS CONTEXT. If we start with one text and pin their tails down to ONE TEXT and deal with it in its context before jumping to another, we will expose their ignorant use of proof texts.

Didn't mean to offend you.

Everyone so far has fled as fast they can from this text in its context. Not one is willing to demonstrate that I am wrong by sound exegesis and why should I follow them to another text and another when they are going to do the very same thing over and over and over without EVER dealing with any text in its context??

 

[The Biblicist]

Michael Wrenn, you certainly have done an excellent job in refuting the false notions of the OP. :thumbsup:

Amy asks,


HP: Why did Satan and the angels forfeit their standing with God? Why did Saul forfeit his standing with God? Why did Judas forfeit his standing with God? Answer my questions and you will have the answer you so desire.

Who said anyone prefers to go to hell? 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Are you honest and able to deal with a text in its context in a scholarly manner? Or are you going to be like the rest and run as fast as you can to another proof text or to philosophizing?

Can we get anyone to show some expository scholarship on this forum and deal with a text in its context in order to prove your point????

 

[The Biblicist]

Gentleman,

Here is the problem as I see it. None of you want to properly deal with this text in its immediate context. You either want to merely jump to a Proof Text to avoid dealing with this text in its context (BTW avoid dealing with your proof text in its context as well) or you want to philosophize. Nothing can be accomplished by following your method.

Prove that my interpretation of this text (Jn. 6:39) is contrary to what it explicitly says or contrary to its immediate context. Once that you shut my mouth or I shut your mouth on this text, then, I would love to jump over to another text and do the same with that text in its context.

Why? Because, I believe that you are wrong and the reason you are wrong is because you simply quote proof texts without examining the context of your proof text. I believe if we examine the context one by one your error will expose itself. I am willing to take what I give out but are you?

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: Why did Satan and the angels forfeit their standing with God? Why did Saul forfeit his standing with God? Why did Judas forfeit his standing with God? Answer my questions and you will have the answer you so desire.

This is circular reasoning! You are first ASSUMING that Satan and the angels had a position of salvation and then chose to fall. They never were saved and therefore never fell from salvation.

You are assuming Judas was genuinely saved when in fact, Christ who knows the heart said he never really beleived in him at all but made a false profession (Jn. 6:64-65, 70) and therefore was a demon from the beginning.

More importantly, you will not even address the text I presented or its context in any expository manner. You want to by pass the text of the OP and go to another text. However, this is the text presented in the OP. Will you address it in an expository manner?

 

[Moriah]

This is circular reasoning! You are first ASSUMING that Satan and the angels had a position of salvation and then chose to fall. They never were saved and therefore never fell from salvation.

You are assuming Judas was genuinely saved when in fact, Christ who knows the heart said he never really beleived in him at all but made a false profession (Jn. 6:64-65, 70) and therefore was a demon from the beginning.

More importantly, you will not even address the text I presented or its context in any expository manner. You want to by pass the text of the OP and go to another text. However, this is the text presented in the OP. Will you address it in an expository manner?

I have addressed your text you presented. You just do not like the answer. Jesus will not lose anyone, but that does not mean someone cannot willfully leave.

 

[windcatcher]

Why would a Christian forfeit his salvation? Why would he prefer to go to hell?

I'm asking seriously, not trying to debate.

Michael Wrenn, you certainly have done an excellent job in refuting the false notions of the OP. :thumbsup:

Amy asks,


HP: Why did Satan and the angels forfeit their standing with God? Why did Saul forfeit his standing with God? Why did Judas forfeit his standing with God? Answer my questions and you will have the answer you so desire.

Who said anyone prefers to go to hell? 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Wondering about this also.

HP, hope you're still reading this thread.
I've questions for you.

Have no knowledge 'bout the angels as to why...

Wondering if I'm on the right track ....and still searching:

As for Saul... From the moment he had a little power and a little authority, he never humbled himself to be approachable.. by God nor by God's servant Samuel. But also he sought spiritual comfort from a witch!

Ditto for Judas... in a similar fashion: He looked to man for forgiveness... attempting to undo the wrong he could never undo.... instead of looking to The Man, The Christ, the Son of God... who could take away his sin. The One he followed, he never really knew.

David knew the law, he talked with God. He broke a commandment and then another. I find it difficult to believe that this was in ignorance and not willful....yet God put his sin away: But in his case, he was humble when confronted and sought the forgiveness of God.

On the other hand, Esau, who sold his inheritance for food... never found forgiveness; (From whom is this speaking? From his earthly father or from God?) In this case, was this only a temporal example to warn us of a spiritual application?


Peter was the bold one, the one who declared under the power and revelation of the Holy Spirit "Thou art the Christ. The Son of the Living God." How is it.... later Jesus says to him "when thou art converted...." if Peter had already made this profession! The "conversion" of Peter...nor non of the other disciples is mentioned in the scriptures that I know of.

Paul gives testimony of his conversion..... but was it the instant that he recognized Jesus as Lord on the road to Damascus... or was it after he received instruction and was baptized?

 

[Moriah]

Biblicist,

Would you like to explain this scripture?

Exodus 32:33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I am sorry you object to my explanation. I graduated from one of their colleges. I know whet they teach well. I am also sorry you object to a biblical view of God as He describes Himself in the Bible.

Oh, I forgot. Jesus was a Calvinist because God is a Calvinist. Thank you so much for correcting me.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

For instance? Show me where my exposition under "A,B, or C" where I used language with faulty reasoning???



That is precisely what the text explicitly states (Jn. 6:39).




You are not contradicting the plain language of the text. The reason they come to Christ is because they are first given by the Father as Jesus later says that it is "given to him of the Father" (Jn. 6:65). The text says nothing about persevering to the end or choosing to perserve - not one word, not one syllable. Stick with the text and its immediate context.




You are accusing Christ of "fatalistic determinism" because I made absolutely no personal comments on that point - I simply quoted Christ's words.



The text does not deal with the issue of freedom does it? Deal with the text. Indeed, the overal context in regard to coming to Christ denies such are free to come to Christ by the words "NO MAN CAN come to me EXCEPT the Father draw him" ( Jn. 6:44) and "except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of the Father" (Jn. 6:65).

Indeed, you are purely and simply ignorant of what you are talking about. You are not only READING INTO the text and context what is not there but you are totally ignoring the distinction between a prefallen human condition and a post-fallen human condition and they are not equal.

I dare you to be honest and objective enough to simply deal with the text.

Personally attacking me to defend your untenable position shows who the ignorant one really is. I could throw out some Bible verses that would contradict you, Hebrews Ch. 6 being one such passage, but I refuse to try to engage ignorance enhanced by arrogance.

And if it should happen that we both end up in heaven, I hope God puts us in opposite corners of it.

 

[targus]

Deal with the text! Why should I go jumping around the Bible from text to text when you are simply doing Proof texting without demonstrating your proof text is not simply jerked out of context?

The OP is based on proof text!!! :laugh:

You selected isolated verses to prove our preconceived idea.

And you refuse to consider those verses in relation to the entirety of Scripture.

That is PROOF TEXT. :laugh: