Eternal Security the Acid test

[Amy.G]

The strangest doctrine I have ever heard is that every thing that is anti-HP is attributable to Calvin. It is his fault for any thing that HP is against.
[/SIZE]

Yes, I heard he was responsible for global warming. :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The strangest doctrine I have ever heard is that every thing that is anti-HP is attributable to Calvin. It is his fault for any thing that HP is against.

HP: Calvinism is a household term in the field of theology that is understood as to hold to certain tenants. One of those tenants common to the system of theology denoted as Calvinism is that the penalty of sin in the life of the believer is not eternal separation from God but rather the loss of rewards. Like it or not that notion is novel to the theological system of Augustinian/Calvinism and is not established by Scripture.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Windcatcher, I am sorry I overlooked your post. You certainly set forth some hard questions.

On the issue of Esau who sold his inheritance for food, I would be inclined to say it was speaking of his earthly father not granting to him the and inheritance he had already granted to his brother. That is simply my view and as such might be subject to change. I do believe it is given to us to warn us concerning spiritual applications.

As to when Paul was converted, I would be of the opinion that it was on the road to Damascus when he came face-to-face with Christ.

 

[DHK]

HP: Calvinism is a household term in the field of theology that is understood as to hold to certain tenants. One of those tenants common to the system of theology denoted as Calvinism is that the penalty of sin in the life of the believer is not eternal separation from God but rather the loss of rewards. Like it or not that notion is novel to the theological system of Augustinian/Calvinism and is not established by Scripture.

1. Believers don't lose their salvation.
2. Believers may lose reward but never salvation.
3. Christ paid the penalty for the believer's salvation--all the penalty, not just some of it.

These are not novel to Calvinism. You would have a hard time proving that they are. And since you are the one that made the allegation the onus is on you to do so. Demonstrate that no one before Augustine held to these beliefs.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: 1. Believers don't lose their salvation.
2. Believers may lose reward but never salvation.
3. Christ paid the penalty for the believer's salvation--all the penalty, not just some of it.

These are not novel to Calvinism. You would have a hard time proving that they are. And since you are the one that made the allegation the onus is on you to do so. Demonstrate that no one before Augustine held to these beliefs.

HP: Sheer Calvinistic philosophy.

So if I will not play this foolish game of arguing from silence, your point of what is established?

You demonstrate no understanding of where the burden of proof lies. It does not lie with me to produce evidence from nothing, but rather it lies with those who might wish to indicate that such beliefs were held by the church prior to Augustine to prove in fact that they did. To do that one will have to do more than just post three philosophical positions. :thumbsup:

It might be noted as well that Christ did not pay the penalty for a believers salvation, for salvation itself carries no penalty. Penalty is ascribed to sin, not salvation. The Calvinistic philosophical notion that the penalty for sin was likened to a forensic proceeding in which a specific amount of debt was paid for by specific amount of punishment are suffering, (commonly denoted as the 'Literal Payment Theory') is simply unfounded in Scripture and clearly absurd if considered in any kind of a logical fashion. That is a discussion in and of itself. It will land you smack dab in the middle of deterministic fatalism.

 

[DHK]

HP: Sheer Calvinistic philosophy.

So if I will not play this foolish game of arguing from silence, your point of what is established?

If you do not partake, then you keep quiet about Calvin and stop ascribing to him doctrines that he did not make up. We are bound by our ethics and standards to give credit where credit is due, and reference all of our works. If Calvin is the author of these doctrines then give such reference. At the same time be sure that no one else before him in history believed it so you can be sure that he is the author of the doctrine. Make sure your sources are correct lest you be found lying when posting on the board.

You demonstrate no understanding of where the burden of proof lies. It does not lie with me to produce evidence from nothing, but rather it lies with those who might wish to indicate that such beliefs were held by the church prior to Augustine to prove in fact that they did. To do that one will have to do more than just post three philosophical positions. :thumbsup:

If you don't provide the proof, I will assume you are posting lies. How else can I tell if you are posting the truth. Your reluctance to give evidence of the truth only leads me to believe you are telling lies. Am I correct in my assumptions?

It might be noted as well that Christ did not pay the penalty for a believers salvation, for salvation itself carries no penalty. Penalty is ascribed to sin, not salvation.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--Our salvation does indeed have a penalty attached to it. But, as you say, the penalty is attached because of sin.
The wages of sin is death. (Rom.6:23). Christ died for that sin--all of it.
He paid the penalty--all of it.
His blood was sufficient--for all of it.

The Calvinistic philosophical notion that the penalty for sin was likened to a forensic proceeding in which a specific amount of debt was paid for by specific amount of punishment are suffering, is simply unfounded in Scripture and clearly absurd if considered in any kind of a logical fashion. That is a discussion in and of itself. It will land you smack dab in the middle of deterministic fatalism.

Christ paid the penalty for my sins: past, present and future. His blood was all sufficient. This is why I am secure in his hand. My sins are forgiven. I have eternal life; I will never lose it.

Romans 4:7-8 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Christ paid the penalty for my sins: past, present and future. His blood was all sufficient. This is why I am secure in his hand. My sins are forgiven. I have eternal life; I will never lose it.

Amen.

And THANK GOD that he has taken care of every sin we ever commit, or will ever commit.

Because if even the tinyest, most insignificant sin that we ever commit were to not be taken care of by Christ, we would be excluded from heaven and sent to hell.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Amen.

And THANK GOD that he has taken care of every sin we ever commit, or will ever commit.

Because if even the tinyest, most insignificant sin that we ever commit were to not be taken care of by Christ, we would be excluded from heaven and sent to hell.

Therefore we have Joy!!!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Yes...Joy indeed!

Thanks be to God!

 

[Moriah]

See 2 Peter 1:10. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,

Why would Peter tell us to make our calling and election sure? Why would Peter tell us what to do so that we will never fall, if we can never fall?

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

The foolish had lamps that went out of oil. They had oil, but they ran out.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4. Here Paul tells us we could fall from grace.

We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. Hebrews 2:1. Here Paul tells us how to not drift away.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Hebrews 10:38. Here Jesus talks about not to draw back.

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Hebrews 12:15. Here Paul warns that one can cause trouble and cause many to be defiled.

My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, Galatians 4:19. The Galatians needed Paul to go through again what he had already done with them before, and that is to form Christ in them again. How would they need Paul to form Christ in them again if OSAS?

Read 2 Peter 2:18, wicked men can even mouth empty, boastful words, and, by appealings to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they can even entice people who are just escaping living in error.

There were people who were JUST ESCAPING LIVING IN ERROR. Wicked men appealed to the desires of the sinful nature and interfered with people who were escaping living in error!

Hebrews 10:30, 31 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Do you not think about the people who are God's that will be judged by God? What did the people who belong to God do that it should be dreadful for them?

 

[DHK]

See 2 Peter 1:10. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,

Why would Peter tell us to make our calling and election sure? Why would Peter tell us what to do so that we will never fall, if we can never fall?

I said two things, that I was a new creation and dead in the flesh.

The above quote would indicate the belief of a believer who can never fall. He that is dead in the flesh cannot fall. How does a dead person fall?
Moriah, that is your quote from a previously closed thread.

 

[Moriah]

The above quote would indicate the belief of a believer who can never fall. He that is dead in the flesh cannot fall. How does a dead person fall?
Moriah, that is your quote from a previously closed thread.

I am sure of my salvation. I do what the Lord says. I also take all the warnings from the Apostles seriously.

As for that question you ask me about how a dead person falls, that question shows how much you know about spiritual things. As for that closed thread, you closed it in a hurry, and before apologizing and admitting you were wrong, but I am not waiting for either.

Is this all you have to say about all those scriptures I gave in this thread? Would you like everyone to ignore the warnings given in the Bible? Would you just like them to take it for granted that they are OSAS? If they fall back, maybe they can tell God that you told them not to worry about it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Yes, I heard he was responsible for global warming. :laugh:

He is, and God predestined that! :laugh:

 

[DaChaser1]

John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This is possibly the strongest verse in the Bible for the doctrine of eternal security.

A. "The Father's will" in context does not refer to the REVEALED WILL of God but as verse 37 demonstrates it refers to the DETERMINATE WILL of God because every single one the Father gives does in fact come to Christ, whereas, the REVEALED WILL of God brings no one to Christ.

B. "Of All" denies that any given by the Father will be lost "I shall lose nothing".

C. "but raise IT (him - third person singular) up again at the last day" does not refer to a general resurrection because all men will be raised up again at the last day. This is the promise that each and every one that comes to Chrsit will be raised up to the resurrection of eternal life as the very next verse demands as well (v. 40) as it ends with the very same promise.

However, my point is that the question "Do you believe a true born again child of God can lose their salvation" is the acid test that determines whether a person/denomination/church actually embraces the doctrine of justification by works or the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

It is the acid test whether they are using Biblical language but denying the Biblical meaning of that langauge or they are using Biblical langauge according to its Biblical meaning.

It is the acid test whether they actually believe that Jesus Christ ALONE satisfied the complete demands of the Law in the place of the believer or he did so conditionally based upon the believer continuing in good works.

It is the acid test whether or not they beleive that Jesus Christ SATIFIED FULLY THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD against sin for true born again believers or that they really beleive true believers must stand before God in judgment to ultimately be vindicated by their own works for entrance into heaven.

It is the acid test because those who deny eternal security cannot believe or say what Jesus said in John 6:39 without changing the meaning of the words He used and thus proves they do not believe we are justified by grace alone thorugh faith alone in Christ alone without works no matter how much they assert they do - because they reject the Biblical meaning of those Biblical terms.

All who reject the doctrine of eternal security "preach another gospel" regardless of their denial.

Until you can demonstrate by this context that I am misinterpreting the words of Christ, I will not jump and run to your PROOF TEXT from a different context. Once we have established the contextual meaning here, then I would be more than happy to jump to your PROOF TEXT and demonstrate from its context you have jerked it out of context.

Think that a church or group or person which would hold to loss of salvation would be in error as regards to issue of forfeiting their salvation, but that by itself did not mean denied the Gospel of jesus proper!

Think also that in order to get lost by God, even they would say would have to turn Apostate and deny the faith, extremely hard for one to do as per them!

 

[Amy.G]

What does forfeiting your salvation look like? What does this person do? I ask because I have seen people who I was totally convinced of their conversion turn and reject God a few years later. I don't know if this is the result of just being mad at God or if it really is a rejection.
I do believe the scripture though. Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake you. Also, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. How does one get un-sealed? And what does it look like in terms of their behavior or attitude?

 

[DaChaser1]

What does forfeiting your salvation look like? What does this person do? I ask because I have seen people who I was totally convinced of their conversion turn and reject God a few years later. I don't know if this is the result of just being mad at God or if it really is a rejection.
I do believe the scripture though. Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake you. Also, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. How does one get un-sealed? And what does it look like in terms of their behavior or attitude?

I do not hold that one can, as it is the Grace of God that saves us, and he is the One keeping us, was just saying that even if they held to one can, does not mean teaching a false gospel/jesus!

If it did, than MANY christians in arminian churches would be lost!

 

[The Biblicist]

What is so hard to understand what I said? Jesus came FIRST for the Jews, the Jews who already belonged to God.

Have you forgotten the Syraphoncian woman - Gentile, the Lord saved? Or the Roman Centurian the Lord Saved or the Samaratan woman the Lord saved, or the Gentiles that sought out Christ in John 12? Have you forgotten Abraham who was not a Jew, Isaac who was not a Jew the Lord Saved? Have you forgotten the Ninevites the Lord saved?

Have you forgotten that Jesus, Peter and Paul all unitedly claimed that the same gospel preached to all those above and others saved them just like it saves us now (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2: Luke 24:25-25, 44-45; etc.)? They simply looked forward to cross by faith and we look back?

Going first to the Jew an to the Gentile simply shows the preeminence of the Jew according to limited commission given to the Seventy and then the Great Commission (Judah, Jersualem, Samaria, then Gentiles- Acts 1:8) over the Gentile. It does not mean Gentiles were not being saved all along and during the ministry of Christ because I just name several Gentiles that were saved by his ministry while on earth.

Gentiles could NOT be reconciled to God until after the vision Peter had. What do you think Peter's vision was about?!

So the Syraphoncian Woman and the Roman Centurian that Christ marveled at their Great faith above any Jew in Israel, were not saved through his ministry? The Samartian woman the whole Samaritan village that heard the witness of Christ through the Samaritant woman did not believe and were not saved? The Gentiles that sought in John 12 did not believe and were not saved?

I am sorry, but your position is so wrong for so many good sound Biblical reasons and Biblical examples to the contrary.


You are necessariy teaching two differeing gospels, two different ways to heaven when you deny gentiles could not be saved until after the cross because Abraham who is THE EXAMPLE of how to justified by faith and a true believer in the Gospel was saved long before the cross as were all those In Hebrews 11 (Rom. 4:11, Gal. 3:6-8).]

 

[The Biblicist]

Gentleman,

Not one single post has even attempted to meet the challenge I sat before you in the OP.

No one has dared deal with the text and its immeidate context to show that my expository remarks were contrary to the context.

I have read a lot of philosophizing, name calling, denials, but no attempt to deal wiht the Biblical Text!!

My position has ben perverted several times. I have been made to appear to believe or state that one cannot be saved if they don't believe in OSAS! I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT and I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT.

A person is saved by simply trusting in the promise of the gospel of Christ as SUFFICIENT to save them. Later, they can be led astray to believe whatever!

My point was and remains to be, that regardless of their PERSONAL SPIRITUAL CONDITION you can know precisely if they now embrace the false doctrine, which is the heart of "another gospel" (thus deceived like the Galatians - Gal. 3:1) by asking one simply qustion - "Do you believe a true born again child of God can lose their salvation."

The only way a true child of God can lose their salvation, if it were possible, would be according to what they either did ro failed to do - works - and thus they have rejected justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works.

The text (Jn. 6:39) and the immediate context (Jn. 6:36-65) completely and irrevesably refutes that any true born again child of God can ever be lost.

If you want to challenge that, THEN DEAL WITH THE TEXT AND CONTEXT and demonstrate rather them spew hot air!

 

[Amy.G]

If you want to challenge that, THEN DEAL WITH THE TEXT AND CONTEXT and demonstrate rather them spew hot air!

I didn't think I was spewing "hot air" with my question. I was quite serious. I wasn't asking about losing one's salvation. I was asking about forfeiting salvation, which some believe to be true and consider to be different than losing salvation.

 

[The Biblicist]

I didn't think I was spewing "hot air" with my question. I was quite serious. I wasn't asking about losing one's salvation. I was asking about forfeiting salvation, which some believe to be true and consider to be different than losing salvation.

A literal reading of the text in question completely repudiates it is possible. If one forfeits something they lose it.

Jesus is clearly saying that every single person the Father gives to him, will come to him and of all the Father gives to him not one will be lost BUT will be raised up at the last day to the resurrection of life.

If one of those given by the Father to the Son could forfeit their salvation then Jesus could not have said "OF ALL" which the Father gave that HE WOULD LOSE NOT ONE. If they could forfeit salvation, the HE WOULD lose them and HE would not raise them to eternal life.

Can't get it much plainer than that! I hope you understand that is why I repeatedly called all posters to deal with the text in its context.

They may not like what Christ said! They may not agree with what Christ said. However, the reason for this thread is to determine exactly what Christ said in John 6:36-65 and especiallly in regard to John 6:39 and see if the claims of some on this thread, their philosophies will stand up to His Word on this subject as he is driectly dealing with the question of the possibility of any really saved persons ever becoming lost.