Eternal Security...The Wide Gate.

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I'll say this in defense of all these many Sabbatarians they had reason to be dissatisfied with something all the other Christians never could see any fault with.
Their attempts to return to the right ways of God may have been awkward and blemished with many by-products of their own fancy, yet it lifts out the single most important stone of offense: The Scriptures! There simply is no way the Scriptures can be reconciled with Sunday worship in the Christian Church. Laugh away the Scriptures, and laugh away the Sabbath-Truth. Because the Sabbath is Scriptural, and the Sunday-sacredness of the Church is not; it is pagan and forever will remain pagan.
It will only get worse and more and more a sure sign of one's allegiance to that certain religious authority that boasts its independencof the Scriptures.
A Challenge for our true Christian Faith the Sabbath has become after 2000 years plus as never before.

 

[James_Newman]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

[BobRyan]

Responding to Christs Words in Matt 18 talking about "forgiveness revoked"

Originally posted by James_Newman:
You should be rightly dividing, brother. Don't you know who died on the cross? Is His blood not sufficient to purchase you from your sins?[/quqote]

As it turns out - Christ knew what He was talking about in that "forgiveness revoked" parable -

Notice that it is unlimited in time. And its application begins "no later than" the days of THOSE who stand before Christ "SO shall My Father DO TO EACH OF YOU"

Christ is talking about the millennial kingdom, which one must be born again to enter, but which is a reward for obedience. If you do not have assurance of your salvation, you are not wearing your helmet.

This chapter says nothing about the millenium.

Rev 20 (the only chapter to mention the millenium) - says nothing about "the Kingdom of heaven" finally arriving DURING the 1000 years.

And Christ addresses "the POINT" to the listeners "So shall My Father DO TO EACH OF YOU...".

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Your topic is eternal security. Either it is eternal because the security God gives us in Christ, or it is not, and you 'believe' no security in Christ - an untruth, an anti-Christ notion if ever there was, found as the basis for RC dogma generally.
Christ's Kingdom is in the heart, but also and foremost in the world, where He rules and no one else. That defines for you the thousand years of John's vision. Christ answers every bit of the characteristics of that symbol of His Kingdom on earth, TODAY!

 

[James_Newman]

The point is taken, that doesn't say that you will not be raised up on the last day. It says you will be cast into prison UNTIL you pay all that you owe. You can still be brought out of that prison on the last day just like Christ promised you would be if you believe on Him. If you are working for your eternal salvation you are not going to make it, brother.

And the 1000 years is the kingdom. Christ is going to literally reign on this earth, get ready for it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
The point is taken, that doesn't say that you will not be raised up on the last day. It says you will be cast into prison UNTIL you pay all that you owe. You can still be brought out of that prison on the last day just like Christ promised you would be if you believe on Him. If you are working for your eternal salvation you are not going to make it, brother.

And the 1000 years is the kingdom. Christ is going to literally reign on this earth, get ready for it.

This an enigma for me: "if you believe" - as if one's believing brings one out of prison; "get ready for it" as if one's insurance against the day Christ is going to literally reign?
Just asking, because you believe no different it seems as does Bob. God's salvation is bestowed unconditionally that's why it's an eternal security. After all how prepared can I prepare myself?

 

[av1611jim]

NOT !

The Kingdom of Christ is literal, physical, visible and temporal. i.e. 1000 literal years on a literal earth, on a literal throne, in a literal Jerusalem.

Got news for you my friend. Jesus will reign on earth literally and physically for 1000 x 365 x 24 x 60 MINUTES and not one minute less, nor more.

And THEN He will destroy Satan and all his allies and THEN He will create a New Heaven and a New Earth and we will then live eternally with God among us LITERALLY. Ain't nuthin' symbolic to it.

But all that has nothing to do with the OP. And of course, you knew that didn't you?

In HIS service;
JIm

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
The point is taken, that doesn't say that you will not be raised up on the last day. It says you will be cast into prison UNTIL you pay all that you owe. You can still be brought out of that prison on the last day just like Christ promised you would be if you believe on Him. If you are working for your eternal salvation you are not going to make it, brother.

And the 1000 years is the kingdom. Christ is going to literally reign on this earth, get ready for it.

This an enigma for me: "if you believe" - as if one's believing brings one out of prison; "get ready for it" as if one's insurance against the day Christ is going to literally reign?
Just asking, because you believe no different it seems as does Bob. God's salvation is bestowed unconditionally that's why it's an eternal security. After all how prepared can I prepare myself? </font>[/QUOTE]I partly believe what Bob believes, that we are called to be obedient, but not for our eternal salvation. Jesus promised that if we believed on Him we would be raised up on the last day, right? You won't find any other condition attached to that promise anywhere in the bible. Mary and Martha knew that their brother Lazarus was going to be raised up in the resurrection, surely I should be able to know myself whether I believe on Jesus or not. Did He not promise to raise me up if I believe on Him? My eternal state is ensured based on the finished work of Christ, not anything that I have done. This doesn't mean that I will be crowned with glory at the judgment seat of Christ and given cities to reign over during the kingdom. These things are reserved for them that love Him.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Jesus said plainly:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

This speaks of a love and manifestation of God toward us that is dependent upon keeping Christ's commandments. This cannot be the same love that we see here:

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You cannot mix these two aspects of God's love, they are not the same thing. To say we must love God to be eternaly saved is to say we could love Him before He loved us. The bible says the opposite, that we love Him BECAUSE He first loved us.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting James Newman,
"You won't find any other condition attached to that promise anywhere in the bible."

I think this is where you and I (as do most free grace believers) differ. The one group (representing your view) think our believing the promise is the condition for it becoming true for us. The other group think our believing the natural outflow of the promised conditioned on nothing else than the promise of God itself.
In the first case believing is indispensible; in the second believing becomes indispensible.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"To say we must love God to be eternaly saved is to say we could love Him before He loved us. The bible says the opposite, that we love Him BECAUSE He first loved us. "

This (to me) does not agree with what you have said about our believing as a condition for the promise.
This time I would say you're 100% right. And God so loved us for nothing short of eternal security!

 

[BobRyan]

You cannot mix these two aspects of God's love, they are not the same thing. To say we must love God to be eternaly saved is to say we could love Him before He loved us.

That is a wild leap of logic unsupportable by reason or scripture.

God FIRST loved and God FIRST chose to GIVE His Son AND to "DRAW ALL MANKIND UNTO HIM" John 12:32.

IN that context MAN is able to respond - supernaturally ENABLED to do what total depravity DISABLES. ALL mankind is drawn ALL mankind is Called - ALL mankind is loved, ALL mankind is paid for - for "HE IS NOT WILLING that ANY SHOULD perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

But that does not MEAN that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH is not an act of man ENABLED to respond. IT does NOT mean that those on the WIDE ROAD of Matt 7 are saved. They can be if they CHOOSE to accept the gift of salvation. IF so - they will be born again.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen Brother Gerhard Ebersoehn -- Preach it!

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Quoting James Newman,
"You won't find any other condition attached to that promise anywhere in the bible."

I think this is where you and I (as do most free grace believers) differ. The one group (representing your view) think our believing the promise is the condition for it becoming true for us. The other group think our believing the natural outflow of the promised conditioned on nothing else than the promise of God itself.
In the first case believing is indispensible; in the second believing becomes indispensible.

If you are believing in OSAS (as I absolutely do) then the how and why of it almost becomes moot. You know that Jesus died for you, and that you will be saved because of this fact alone, not because of anything you did to merit this gift. Amazing grace, indeed!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother James_Newman -- Preach it!

 

[Eladar]

If you are believing in OSAS (as I absolutely do) then the how and why of it almost becomes moot. You know that Jesus died for you, and that you will be saved because of this fact alone, not because of anything you did to merit this gift. Amazing grace, indeed!

I do not believe in OSAS, but I do know that Jesus died so that those who believe in him will have eternal life and that this is not because of anything they did to merit this gift.

I guess the main difference between your belief and mine is that you believe you can judge your own salvation while I believe I need to wait until God makes that judgement.

 

[Trotter]

If salvation is an act of God and not of man, how can man undo what only God can do?

If salvation is partly God and partly man, how can God beconsidered all-powerful and not be able to save someone?

If salvation is of man, why do we need God in the first place?

If God is not big enough to keep His own, He's not much of a God, is He?

So, bottom line. What God/god do you believe in? One that has the power to save and to keep, or one that goes around saying, "Butterfingers, lost another on"?

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[prophecynut]

Excellent Trotter, sound logical reasoning on your part. If there isn't OSAS then God is no longer a sovereign God, he becomes hostage to what his creation does. Butterfingers is my favorite candy bar, yum, yum.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Eladar:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If you are believing in OSAS (as I absolutely do) then the how and why of it almost becomes moot. You know that Jesus died for you, and that you will be saved because of this fact alone, not because of anything you did to merit this gift. Amazing grace, indeed!

I do not believe in OSAS, but I do know that Jesus died so that those who believe in him will have eternal life and that this is not because of anything they did to merit this gift.

I guess the main difference between your belief and mine is that you believe you can judge your own salvation while I believe I need to wait until God makes that judgement. </font>[/QUOTE]It has already been judged. It was judged 2000 years ago when Christ said "it is finished" and gave up the ghost on the cross. You can't be trusting in your works to save you, or you will not be saved. Only the blood of Christ could pay that price, else why did He have to die?

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
You can't be trusting in your works to save you, or you will not be saved.

And making a decision to accept Christ is WORKS!

 

[Eladar]

It has already been judged. It was judged 2000 years ago when Christ said "it is finished" and gave up the ghost on the cross. You can't be trusting in your works to save you, or you will not be saved. Only the blood of Christ could pay that price, else why did He have to die?

Do you believe in Universal salvation? If not, then you are being inconsistant with your application of Jesus' blood.