Eternal Security

[Ben1445]

I don't understand your question! My post that you replied to has nothing to do with what Paul said in 1 Cor. 5.

That post was concerning Paul addressing the Hebrews.

Why does Paul say His spirit can be saved when he is practicing sin? Hebrews says that he has been enlightened and it is impossible to renew him again to repentance.
They absolutely have to do with each other. The two concepts are opposed if you believe that you can lose your salvation.
How can you explain these two teachings simultaneously within your belief?

 

[JonC]

Would you care to explain that, Jon?

The passage is stating that sins cannot be transferred to another, and righteousness can't be transferred to another.

The word "soul" is normally translated "person" (not that it matters, as the context is rejecting that sins can be transferred).

I thought it funny because JesusFan extracted one verse from that passage while the remainder of the passage refuted the point he was making.

 

[Charlie24]

Why does Paul say His spirit can be saved when he is practicing sin? Hebrews says that he has been enlightened and it is impossible to renew him again to repentance.
They absolutely have to do with each other. The two concepts are opposed if you believe that you can lose your salvation.
How can you explain these two teachings simultaneously within your belief?

Sin doesn't bar you from salvation, that's where the spanking from the Lord comes in, but you are still believing ,still saved while sinning.

My example is a faith that no longer exists in those who can't come back to repentance.

 

[JonC]

Once received eternal life from God, is it forever theirs then?

Is eternal life eternal? Yes, it's right there in the "eternal" part.

 

[JonC]

Sin doesn't bar you from salvation, that's where the spanking from the Lord comes in, but you are still believing ,still saved while sinning.

My example is a faith that no longer exists in those who can't come back to repentance.

The issue I have with this is how one could believe, experience God, and then stop believing.

It would be easier to be burnt by a fire, believe fire is hot, and then stop believing fire is hot.


If its just cognitive, I could get that. The earth is round. The earth is flat. We landed on the moon. We didn't land on the moon. Cognitive belief is based on persuasion.

But we are talking about being made a new creation, God's Spirit in us. How could one experience God and later disbelieve?

 

[Ben1445]

The issue I have with this is how one could believe, experience God, and then stop believing.

It would be easier to be burnt by a fire, believe fire is hot, and then stop believing fire is hot.

On

If its just cognitive, I could get that. "Careful, you break thar mirror and thats 7 years bad luck". Then you break the mirror and all is fine.

If it’s merely cognitive, faith without works is dead faith. To know is not enough. It is possible to believe and know and reject. It is possible to believe and know and agree but do nothing about what you know to be true. This is why James writes what he does.

 

[Charlie24]

The issue I have with this is how one could believe, experience God, and then stop believing.

It would be easier to be burnt by a fire, believe fire is hot, and then stop believing fire is hot.


If its just cognitive, I could get that. The earth is round. The earth is flat. We landed on the moon. We didn't land on the moon. Cognitive belief is based on persuasion.

But we are talking about being made a new creation, God's Spirit in us. How could one experience God and later disbelieve?

You can reason in the mind all you like (I highly recommend against it) or you can believe Ezekiel when he spoke for the Lord,

"But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness...."

The Old Testament saints were saved the exact same way as us, faith in the Blood of the Lamb.

The gift of righteousness was the same for them as for us. They were credited this righteousness of Christ based on what Christ would do in the future, our righteousness is based on what Christ has already done.

So the man who turns from his righteousness, has turned from the faith in the Blood of the Lamb, and what did Ezekiel say happened to that man?

 

[JonC]

If it’s merely cognitive, faith without works is dead faith. To know is not enough. It is possible to believe and know and reject. It is possible to believe and know and agree but do nothing about what you know to be true. This is why James writes what he does.

I agree....but it is also possible to have a cognitive belief and works, but no spiritual birth (the many who will relate to Jesus all the works they did in the church only to hear "I never knew you").

I think that repentance and belief (true faith) is more than cognitive. It starts as cognitive, but it ends up with one being made a new creation in Christ, the old heart gone, the old spirit gone, a new heart and spirit put in, God's Spirit in us, being born of the Spirit.

 

[Ben1445]

You can reason in the mind all you like (I highly recommend against it) or you can believe Isaiah when he spoke for the Lord,

"But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness...."

The Old Testament saints were saved the exact same way as us, faith in the Blood of the Lamb.

The gift of righteousness was the same for them as for us. They were credited this righteousness of Christ based on what Christ would do in the future, our righteousness is based on what Christ has already done.

So the man who turns from his righteousness, has turned from the faith in the Blood of the Lamb, and what did Isiah say happened to that man?

But the old covenant was in effect and the new covenant had not yet been given.
Still faith in God’s plan for salvation yet a different evidence of faith.

 

[JonC]

You can reason in the mind all you like (I highly recommend against it) or you can believe Isaiah when he spoke for the Lord,

"But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness...."

The Old Testament saints were saved the exact same way as us, faith in the Blood of the Lamb.

The gift of righteousness was the same for them as for us. They were credited this righteousness of Christ based on what Christ would do in the future, our righteousness is based on what Christ has already done.

So the man who turns from his righteousness, has turned from the faith in the Blood of the Lamb, and what did Isiah say happened to that man?

I wasn't reasoning ot out. I was reading Isaiah about how God transforms us and puts His Spirit in us.

We see righteous men sin all the time, and their sin remains on them unless they are forgiven.

And I was dealing with the passage from Ezekiel :

But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and dies because of it, for his injustice which he has committed he dies. 27 But when a wicked person turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

 

[Ben1445]

I agree....but it is also possible to have a cognitive belief and works, but no spiritual birth (the many who will relate to Jesus all the works they did in the church only to hear "I never knew you").

I think that repentance and belief (true faith) is more than cognitive. It starts as cognitive, but it ends up with one being made a new creation in Christ, the old heart gone, the old spirit gone, a new heart and spirit put in, God's Spirit in us, being born of the Spirit.

I agree.
We are new creatures. When it comes right down to it, I don’t see how the old things that are passed away can be resurrected.

 

[Charlie24]

But the old covenant was in effect and the new covenant had not yet been given.
Still faith in God’s plan for salvation yet a different evidence of faith.

I'm having serious problems posting, having to repost 2 times before it takes!

Read post #27, whether old or new covenant man is saved the same way.

The only difference is that the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin.

But yet God forgave theirs sins based on their faith.

 

[Charlie24]

I wasn't reasoning ot out. I was reading Isaiah about how God transforms us and puts His Spirit in us.

We see righteous men sin all the time, and their sin remains on them unless they are forgiven.

And I was dealing with the passage from Ezekiel :

But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and dies because of it, for his injustice which he has committed he dies. 27 But when a wicked person turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

So, Jon, you're straight up denying that Ezekiel said a righteous man can turn from his righteousness?

And that all the good he had done would not be remembered, and he would die in sins?

If you're denying this then our conversation is over, Jon!

 

[JesusFan]

OK, JesusFan, you just keep believing that! But at the same time you better do as Paul told us to do, "Examine yourselves whether you are in the faith."

If you don't do this on a regular basis, you may find yourself in very serious trouble when you meet Him.

As [peter stated, make sure of our election and calling, as God who started His good work in us has sealed with the Holy Spirit to make sure all saved stay saved against the resurrection day

 

[JesusFan]

But it is impossible to renew them to repentance Heb. 6

That person described as a gross sinner did repent and come back to the Lord Jesus, just as peter did, as will all really saved, while those who only profess saved will one day end up like Judas

 

[Charlie24]

As [peter stated, make sure of our election and calling, as God who started His good work in us has sealed with the Holy Spirit to make sure all saved stay saved against the resurrection day

LOL, you're going to believe what your leaders have told you, nothing I can do!

 

[JesusFan]

They have committed the unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

When their faith in Christ left them, so did the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It will not be forgiven, and they cannot be renewed to repentance, they are eternally separated from God.

That sin only can be down by lost sinners

 

[JesusFan]

Why does Paul say His spirit can be saved when he is practicing sin? Hebrews says that he has been enlightened and it is impossible to renew him again to repentance.
They absolutely have to do with each other. The two concepts are opposed if you believe that you can lose your salvation.
How can you explain these two teachings simultaneously within your belief?

As peter stated, the sow will return to the muck and mire , but the one really saved shall be as the Prodigal Son, eventually finding His way back home

 

[JesusFan]

I wasn't reasoning ot out. I was reading Isaiah about how God transforms us and puts His Spirit in us.

We see righteous men sin all the time, and their sin remains on them unless they are forgiven.

And I was dealing with the passage from Ezekiel :

But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and dies because of it, for his injustice which he has committed he dies. 27 But when a wicked person turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

That passage has nothing to do with spiritual/eternal life, but with the concept of if one sins bad enough, could get the death penalty, but each one received based upon own sins, not group in with others sinning

 

[Ben1445]

I'm having serious problems posting, having to repost 2 times before it takes!

Read post #27, whether old or new covenant man is saved the same way.

The only difference is that the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin.

But yet God forgave theirs sins based on their faith.

There are major differences.
We don’t offer continuous sacrifices. Jesus was sacrificed once for all.
We are not bound to certain diets and feasts. We are not required to travel to Jerusalem to evidence our faith.

It is true that salvation is always by faith.
Psalms 40:6
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire;
mine ears hast thou opened:
burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
And yet still they were required to offer them.
God testified against them that their hearts were far from Him