"I didn't proclaim anyone is of the devil. Apparently you are as bad as interpreting my words as you are the Lord's."
"Copied from this thread, YOUR ANSWER to another with whom YOU disagree:
Your misinterpretations, inspired by Satan, are not the Bible.
We will wait for yer apology."
Then you'll be waiting a long time, for "inspired" by Satan is not the same as being "of" Satan.
Apparently your inability to be able to rightly divide
my sharp words is not unlike your inability to divide the
Lord's sharp words.
"It's Ruht. When addressing the name of a person, proper grammar requires the capitalization of the first letter of the name."
"Sorry. Somewhere I saw it with all small letters and my brain followed that."
Glad you edited what you said previously, for you claimed it was written that way at the start of this thread.
"There is nothing "run of the mill" about grace."
"I know. Hope you find some somewhere. So far your posts have been distinctly lacking of it."
I have "found" it, and I indeed preach it, which is the
true reason you find fault with me.
"Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
"OK. Those who have done good are those who were saved by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and thus, born of the Holy Spirit."
"Says NO SUCH THING. Go back and read the verse again. The word "faith" is not in there at all. You are acting now like Luther who was intemperate enough to add words to the Scriptures to suit his particular theological bent. It says "those who have done good". Period."
Line must be upon line, my friend, and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, and indeed, it says such a thing. And if "Luther" also said it, then Luther was
right.
You should then listen to Luther.
A person does not "do good" by trying to justify himself through attempted obedience to written commandments. A person only does good by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
I ask you, legalist: Does that say a person does good by attempted obedience to written commandments?
The Lord taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
"Ro 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"
"OK. St Paul was referring to the deeds of either accepting salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, or not accepting it. And "well doing" are those who have had faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not in the attempted obedience to written commandments."
"Doesn't say that either."
Line must be upon line, my friend, and precept upon precept. The only way a person is justified is through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not by his own efforts of righteousness. The Bible indeed says this, but you are failing to apply it. You are forgetting what manner of man you are - saved by grace, not by works - and because of this you are stumbling at scripture.
If I told you "the cat is green, it will always be green, and it will never be anything else," and then I told you "the feline is blue," would you abandon what I said previously about the cat always and only being green, or would you remain upon such a sure foundation, without wavering, and realize that the cat is still green, and there must be some other interpretation of "the feline is blue."
This is what you are doing with the Bible, and God wrote the Bible this way
intentionally to "snare" people like you. For your
true faith is revealed by this, as you forsake Christ to accept righteousness through attempted obedience to written law, when you read verses which
sound as if they agree with your own self-righteousness. But those who have
true faith in Christ will not waver, and they will not be fooled by that which "sounds" like it is saying something else, for they know that man is only justified by what Christ did, not by what man does, and they know that will never change, and will always be.
This is the
SURE FOUNDATION referred to in Isaiah 28 and other places. I pray you learn of it.
You have forgotten what manner of man you are, as testified to in James 1, and you therefore are fooled by such scriptures.
"In fact, the whole of Romans 2: 5 - 10, which describes the Last Judgement, says NOTHING regarding faith.
It says it all throughout the Bible, you need to remain upon the sure foundation while interpreting scripture.
"It says that those who have sought eternal life through the perseverence in good deeds shall indeed receive it."
And "good deeds" are not things done to try and earn salvation, good deeds begin with faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and continue by
nature through the birth of the Holy Spirit.
Again, you have failed to apply line upon line, and precept upon precept.
"And those who have done evil shall receive for their evil deeds. You really should read the Scriptures the way they are written and not how you want them to read."
Yes,
you should.
"This is why Christ gave the world the Catholic Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:15), because there are THOUSANDS of little "popettes" like you in pulpits all across the world who are all too willing to bend, twist, and distort the clear wording of Scripture to fit their understandings and culturalisms."
The legalism in the Catholic church was not given by Christ, and my words and knowledge of grace are from the Holy Spirit.
"14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
Explain what it means that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance."
"Perhaps this might help your confusion:
"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also HATH given unto us the earnest of the Spirit." - II Corinthians 5:5
"Earnest" means, in this sense: "something given as an indication or assurance of what is to come; token." (Webster's New World College Dictionary, Fourth Edition Copyright 1999)"
"You should stop to read what you copy."
You should stop to
understand what you read.
"A token of something which is to come is NOT the same as the full amount. It is a pledge. The Holy Spirit is the foretaste of Heaven and eternal life. But we get the full amount after we have been judged and if we have been found faithful covenant keepers."
The "token" of the Holy Spirit is not a "taste" of eternal life, as we have
full eternal life, now. (John 5:24; John 6:47; John 6:54; John 10:28; I John 5:11; I John 5:13) And
this "token" is not a "pledge," but an
assurance.
"Christ was telling the person that all of his own works of self righteousness were still not good enough, that the only way he could ever be saved was through faith in Christ, not through the attempted obedience of the written laws this person had tried to boast he had kept."
"That again, is NOT what Jesus said.
That is
exactly what Jesus said. However, your legalistic veil over your eyes keeps you from seeing it.
"You really need to imagine yourself as a Jew standing there listening to what Jesus was saying. Jesus said that we are to keep God's commandments. That is what anyone listening would have understood.
That is what a self-righteous legalist like
yourself would have understood, which is why you, along with the person Christ was speaking to, stumble and turn from his
grace
"Is Jesus a deciever who says one thing but secretly means another?"
Jesus is not the deceiver,
your own heart is. Jesus just spoke in a way that those who refused to believe in him, could not hear, and
he said so:
"Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." - Luke 8:10
"And he said, Go and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." - Isaiah 6:9&19
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath REVEALED them unto us BY HIS SPIRIT: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. - I Corinthians 2:7-10
You cannot understand the words of Christ because your eyes, ears and heart are not capable of understanding his words. Only through the revelations of the Holy Spirit will you
ever be able to understand the Lord.
"No, He told Caiphas that He had preached plainly and in the open His doctrines. You need to stop twisting His words to suit you and then accusing all who take His words literally of being "legalists"."
They
are plain; however, the natural man cannot hear the
plain words of Christ:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED." - I Corinthians 2:14
They are "plain" to
me, why are they not "plain" to
you?
I do not "twist" the plain words of God, rather
you do, as do all legalists.
"Christ told him to "sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor," as a witness against the self-righteousness of this person, and his dishonesty. For this person was proven not to be nearly as self-righteous as he exalted himself, for he was not able to sell everything he had, in his self-righteousness, thus demonstrating all of his attempted obedience to written law was not done in sincerity from within. Christ exposed his real heart, that he was only righteous on the outside."
"Indeed. The young man, for all his good deeds, had an idol which needed to be smashed. Christ pointed this out to him. Incidentally, there is an interesting tradition which says that this young man might have been St. Paul. Knowing the caliber of St. Paul's life as outline in Scripture, this is possible."
Actually, this "young man" had boasted openly before Christ, his disciples, God and man that he had kept the law, thus asserting that he was righteous. Christ, who is God, knew he had not kept the law, and as a witness in front of the others, proved the unrighteous heart of this individual by letting them all see that he was not as good as he espoused. Christ proved the shortcomings of the written law, how that the righteousness in the written law was still not good enough. Christ proved that this person was self-righteous, not truly seeking the righteousness of Christ, when giving the man something he could not give up. The man therefore left Christ, satisfied with his own righteousness, because he did not truly believe in Christ.
Christ was not saying that someone has to sell everything they have and give to the poor in order to have eternal life, he was proving the heart of this individual, in how it was not nearly as righteous and obedient to God as he espoused in the law. The only way he could have been saved was by "following Christ," which means being saved and born again of the Holy Spirit. This was the only way Christ was telling this man he could be saved.
"1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which ye are.
Explain how if your "once saved - always saved" doctrine is true that St. Paul could make the above statement to believers."
"How can the temple defile the temple? And how can God living inside of the temple, the Holy Spirit in saved man, defile the temple?
You are defiling the temple of God if you claim the saved body of a person is not yet good enough."
"Is anyone else confused by this answer? This makes no sense at all to me."
I'm sure it doesn't.
"1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."
"If you keep in memory what Paul preached, then you have accepted it, and have become saved. "Believed in vain" means having misunderstood the words of Paul, and thus having thought that salvation came through attempted obedience to written commandments."
"You miss my point. With the "once saved - always saved crowd" there is no "if"."
False. There is an "if" if you have not yet accepted Christ; which is where you are stumbling.
"For St. Paul to use the word "if" in the same sentence as salvation creates the scenario that our salvation has an "if" to it."
Salvation
does have an "if' to it, and the "if' means "if" you are saved or not, not "if" you stay saved or not.
"Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Explain again why St. Paul would state that Christ would present believers holy and unblameable in his sight only IF they continued in the faith."
Because Paul is speaking of the
mind of the believer, in which he would present you "holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight."
As I believe I said before, you failed to quote the important verse before that:
And you, that were sometime alienated in your mind by wicked works, yet know hath he reconciled. - Colossians 1:21
If one was "alienated" in one's
MIND, and this passage speaks of a "reconciliation" of that alienation, then where is the author referring to as to where the reconciliation is taking place?
Here's a hint: The same place where one was "alienated" in, the
MIND.
Therefore the author is saying that if one holds fast in
faith that which he has taught about
grace, in their
MINDS, then in their
MINDS the Holy Spirit would present them "holy and umblameable and unreprovable in his sight,"
just as what is going on between you and me. I know that I am saved and not under any condemnation, because I stand firm in faith on the sure foundation. You, however, have forgotten what manner of man you are - saved by grace, not by works - and you therefore are at unrest in your
mind in regard to your relationship and standing with God.
You see, in your
fear and
doubt of your salvation, all you therefore see when you read that passage and passages like that are words like "if" and things like that. But the person who stands firm on the sure foundation of grace, who does not interpret scripture in haste, but waits upon the Lord for
HIS interpretation, God then directs them to noticing things that the legalist passes by.
For the
doers of the perfect law of liberty are truly blessed in their deeds, just as James 1:25 says they are.
God wrote the Bible this way
intentionally.
"If" you accept the gospel, and do not turn away from it, you are saved. "If" you turn away from it, you are not saved."
"No such concept is found in Scripture anywhere."
It is all throughout the Bible, and here is one easy place for starters:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18
I am sorry you are not able to see this.
"This idea sprung out of the Protestant Rebellion and their attempts to reconcile Luther and Calvin's teachings of "perseverence" of the saints with the Biblical teaching that a believer may indeed fall away."
There is no teaching
anywhere in the Bible that a believer can fall away.
And the Protestants were wise to come out from under the Satanic yoke of the Catholic church which was erroneously espousing such a thing. Legalists have been in the "church" since the beginning of time, and they even killed Christ and the prophets. And the legalistic Catholic hierarchy I'm sure killed as many prophets as they could get away with, also. All one has to do is look towards their bloody history, including their Crusades and Inquisitions.
Satan has disguised himself as an angel of light for quite awhile, and the most evil men who ever lived are unsaved legalists, which is why Christ said they would receive the greater damnation.
Has there been good done in the Catholic church? yes, there are indeed genuine Christians in the Catholic church; although I am sure tormented somewhat by the legalism shoved down their infant throats by vipers in tall, pointy hats, robes and long, pointing fingers.
Praise God for the Protestant reformation.
"St. Paul is writing to believers here and warning them to continue in the faith. Your interpretation is a man made idea which is not found in the verse above."
Says a blind legalist.
"An eternal covenant made by God cannot be broken by God, for it is impossible for God to lie. Only man is capable of breaking such a covenant between God and man; unsaved man, that is."
"The eternal covenant is between the members of the Trinity. They exist in perfect and unbreakable covenant with one another. As for the relationship between God and man, it is a covenant and if you study Deut. 28, you will see the outline of how covenants work. One of the principles of a covenant is that they are breakable."
It is an
eternal covenant with man, legalist, and God says it is:
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will REMEMBER THEIR SIN NO MORE." - Jeremiah 31:33-34
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them; And their sins and iniquities I will REMEMBER NO MORE. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." - Hebrews 10:16-18
"For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14
And "
REMEMBER NO MORE" and "
FOREVER" means
ETERNAL.
"I would suggest you read Ray Sutton's book on the covenant THAT YOU MAY PROSPER, in order to come to an understanding of what a covenant is and how one works."
I suggest Ray Sutton come into this forum and read what I have written.
God bless.
[ August 28, 2002, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Ruht ]
