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R
Ruht
Guest
Well, thank you all for inquiring of me. I have taken a post I wrote, from another thread, as it may help you. You can see some of my statements on this topic there, also:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=001064
Do I sin? No, not in God's eyes. For I am no longer a sinner in his eyes, thanks to what Jesus has done for me. Am I capable of committing the same physical acts that are imputed as sin unto the unsaved? yes, I am capable of committing the same physical acts that are imputed as a sin unto the unsaved. However, sin is more than just the outward act, as Christ tried to explain, sin is the entire intent, thought and action. Therefore all three of these must be in place: evil intent which produces evil thought which produces evil action.
The saved who are born of the Holy Spirit are not capable of evil intent, for our intents have been changed through the birth of the Holy Spirit. Therefore when we do something not in accordance with God's will, break the letter of a commandment or law (if the letter in this instance is righteous), God will still chasten us for it in one way or another, but it will not be imputed unto us as sin, for it is not sin, as we are not capable of breaking the righteousness of the law, which is love, as we are forever born of love, and we can never stop loving others, even when we may break the letter of the law. Sin is something that only comes forth from sinners, from people who are not capable of true love. We are not sinners when we become saved. If you are still a sinner, then you are not saved and born of the Holy Spirit.
I know that comes as a shock to many a practicing legalist, or someone who has been engaging in legalism unto any certain degree, but the Lord has declared that the saved do not commit sin, and I have chosen to believe the Lord. Therefore the Lord has opened my eyes unto what I have spoken.
It is the Lord who defines what sin is, not man, and it is the Lord who defines what sin isn't, not man. You learned of sin in the Bible, for the Bible taught you that man is a sinner, but the same Bible says that the saved are no longer sinners, yet many of you cannot believe the same Bible on this. And that is because one requires no faith in Christ, and the other does.
Here are my words from another thread. I know I will be disagreed with and all of the things that run the gamut when one has such faith, and I can handle it, so "hit me with your best shots," I welcome all emotions and words as long as they are along topic lines. If you wish to call me names and such, I do not mind at all, as long as when you do so you are writing along the topic lines.
However, if you stray from the topic at hand in your frustration to devote and entire post of personal attack and ad hominem against me, I will indeed object and defend myself from an initiated, off topic personal attack, if I am allowed to do so. For the Bible itself has declared that every mouth that rises in judgment against those who trust in the righteousness of Christ, they would condemn, so don't be surprised when I do so to those who come against me, and don't whine when I do. If you are going to fire unrighteous shots at me, I will defend myself and the righteousness I am under, rest assured.
Instead of me writing out posts to each and every one of you, here is an excerpt from the thread I mentioned, I hope this helps you understand my position, for starters. I suggest you go to that thread link, and read some of the other posts I provided, if you wish to understand even further what I am saying. There are also other posts on this in the other "Eternal Security" thread in the "Calvinism/Armenianism Debate" thread. Perhaps you can also go there and see what I have to say, if you are interested:
---------------
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid, How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" - Romans 6:1&2
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DESTROYED, that henceforth we should not serve sin. FOR HE THAT IS DEAD IS FREED FROM SIN." - Romans 6:6&7
"Likewise reckon yourselves also to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:11
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE." - Romans 6:14
"But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye HAVE obeyed that form of doctrine delivered you. Being then made FREE FROM SIN, ye became the servants of righteousness." - Romans 6:18
"But now being made FREE FROM SIN, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." - Romans 6:22
"There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." - Romans 8:1
"But YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, BUT IN THE SPIRIT, IF SO BE THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. NOW IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS." - Romans 8:8
"And such WERE some of you: but ye ARE WASHED, but YE ARE SANCTIFIED, but YE ARE JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL UNTO ME, but all things are not expedient: ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL FOR ME, but I will not be brought under the power of any." - I Corinthians 6:11&12
"And they that are Christ's have CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH THE AFFECTIONS AND LUSTS." - Galatians 5:24
"For we wrestle NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD, but against principalities, and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." - Ephesians 6:12
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, HAVING FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES; BLOTTING OUT THE HANDWRITING OF ALL ORDINANCES THAT WAS AGAINST US, WHICH WAS CONTRARY TO US, AND TOOK IT OUT OF THE WAY, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS." - Colossians 2:13&14
"LET NO MAN THEREFORE JUDGE YOU IN MEAT, OR IN DRINK, OR IN RESPECT OF AN HOLYDAY, OR OF THE NEW MOON, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS... Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, ARE YE SUBJECT T
RDINANCES (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using
after the commandments and doctrines of men?" - Colossians 2:16- -23"For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their HEARTS, and in their MINDS will I write them; And their sins and iniquities I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE. Now where REMISSION OF THESE IS, THERE IS NO MORE OFFERING FOR SIN." - Hebrews 10:16-18
"Being born again, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, BUT OF INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever." - I Peter 1:23
"And ye know that he was manifested to TAKE AWAY OUR SINS; and in him IS NO SIN. Whosoever abideth in him SINNETH NOT; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: he that doeth righteousness IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL. WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH IN HIM: AND HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." - I John 3:5-10
"WE KNOW THAT WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." - I John 5:18
---------------
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the REST ye may cause the weary to REST; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves; Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a SURE FOUNDATION; he that believeth shall not make haste." - Isaiah 28:9-16
"And if by grace, it is no more by works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more by grace, otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them THE SPIRIT OF SLUMBER, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE, AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR
UNTO THIS DAY. And David said, Let their table be made a SNARE, and a TRAP, and a STUMBLINGBLOCK, and a RECOMPENCE UNTO THEM: Let their EYES BE DARKENED, THAT THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND BOW DOWN THEIR BACK ALWAY." - Romans 11:6-10"What shall we say then? that the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, hath attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it NOT BY FAITH, BUT AS IT WERE BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW. FOR THEY STUMBLED AFTER THAT STUMBLINGSTONE. As it is written, Behold I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." - Romans 9:30-33
Here a little, there a little.
Learn this mystery: You are fed with milk until you are able to bear meat. (I Corinthians 3:2) But when you shall become a man, you shall put away childish things. (I Corinthians 13:11) The law is your schoolmaster to bring you unto Christ, but when faith comes, you will no longer be under a schoolmaster. (Galatians 3:24&25)
Until then, God bless the babes in Christ.
[ August 29, 2002, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]
R
Ruht
Guest
The Bible most certainly validates it; I am sorry you are not able to see it.
If you do not believe in eternal security, you do not totally believe in Christ, or you do not believe in Christ at all. Your faith is instead in your own acts of righteousness; whether you understand that or not.
God states it. The problem with you is that you believe what your own eyes see, not what God has declared unto you.
I have given you my views, many times.
God bless.
R
Ruht
Guest
" 'Course the self-righteous are righteous in their own eyes, so I don't expect you to see what you are doing."
Nice try, but it won't work. Your finger-pointing days perhaps appear to be waning, legalist, for the Lord has a bigger finger to point at you. I suggest you put down your finger and your self-righteousness and come to the mercy of the cross and his righteousness, before he turns your finger back on you in away you will forever regret.
God bless.
[ August 29, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]
Not quite sure I know what you mean by that, but if you are saying that I am self-righteous, then you don't know the meaning of the word. For my righteousness is of the Lord, not of myself, which is why you and the rest of the legalists persecute me in the first place.
Nice try, but it won't work. Your finger-pointing days perhaps appear to be waning, legalist, for the Lord has a bigger finger to point at you. I suggest you put down your finger and your self-righteousness and come to the mercy of the cross and his righteousness, before he turns your finger back on you in away you will forever regret.
God bless.
[ August 29, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]
R
Ruht
Guest
I did not say this person wasn't a Christian. However, are you saying that non-Christians cannot possibly post on a board where only Christians may post?
Are you therefore saying that I am a Christian?
I stand by what I said.
God bless.
And thats why no one understands what you are talking about.
You have in NO way tried to attempt to tell me how someone that has slid away from God commits Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
Blasphemy is the only sin which there is no forgiveness. And we no inorder to blaspheme the Holy Ghost one must have known God in order to do so. In other words must have been "Saved"
Have you ever commited one of these acts?
Adultry, Fornication, envy, strife, lust, witchcraft, uncleanness, covetousness, filthiness, foolish talking, jesting, whoremonging,idolatry or such things as these?
If you answer No than you decieve yourself.
I dont want to know what acts you have commited, but being a human you have commited some. And if you continue to live in these acts, Even after being "Saved" The Bible THE BIBLE says you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The bible says do not let No man deceive you with vain words, for b/c of these things comes the wwrath of God upon the Children of Disobedience
In order for this to be written, the writer knew that if someone that is "Saved" should not be doing these things. And if they were doing them than they are not born of God.
Originally posted by Ruht:
I did not say this person wasn't a Christian.
I thought that's what you were implying when you wrote:
I suggest you put down your finger and your self-righteousness and come to the mercy of the cross and his righteousness, before he turns your finger back on you in away you will forever regret.
because I think of Christians as people who have come to the mercy of the cross already.
However, are you saying that non-Christians cannot possibly post on a board where only Christians may post?
Well, only Christians can register. If a non-Christian manages to trick those in charge of registrations into thinking he/she is a Christian, yes, then he/she can post. I don't see the point in it myself because then he/she would have to pretend to be a Christian and post as a Christian or be found out and banned. But in theory I'm sure it's possible to pretend to be a Christian when you aren't. There are people out there who probably could do that convincingly.
So how about if I reword what I said to: only people who have convinced those in charge here they are Christians, and hence have been able to register, can post here.
Are you therefore saying that I am a Christian?
You wrote in your profile that you are. And those in charge let you register so they evidently believe you are. I don't have a basis for disbelieving that you are one. However I don't agree with everything you say about Christians and sin. If a Christian steals I think that's just as much sin to God as if a non-Christian does. (Although I don't believe the Christian will lose their salvation by sinning, which is what this thread is about, I think) And I don't believe Christians can't ever have evil intents. What the Christians have, theologically speaking, that non-Christians don't have - is power through the Holy Spirit to not sin. They can choose whether they avail themselves of that power or not. And they don't always choose to avail themselves of it in my experience.
A sin is a sin. No matter who commits it. The sin of Christians is paid for by Jesus' death but it's still sin. Suppose your parent said to your bank - if Ruht spends more money than he/she has, take what you need from my account and pay his/her debt, does that mean that you didn't go into debt? Of course not. You did just as much as if you would have to pay it off. But in fact someone else has promised to pay. And their promise doesn't necessarily mean they won't be upset with you for going into debt - for your unwise amount of spending, that they made up for.
But I expect you agree with this partly, at least, as an analogy.
AITB
I did not say this person wasn't a Christian.
I thought that's what you were implying when you wrote:
I suggest you put down your finger and your self-righteousness and come to the mercy of the cross and his righteousness, before he turns your finger back on you in away you will forever regret.
because I think of Christians as people who have come to the mercy of the cross already.
However, are you saying that non-Christians cannot possibly post on a board where only Christians may post?
Well, only Christians can register. If a non-Christian manages to trick those in charge of registrations into thinking he/she is a Christian, yes, then he/she can post. I don't see the point in it myself because then he/she would have to pretend to be a Christian and post as a Christian or be found out and banned. But in theory I'm sure it's possible to pretend to be a Christian when you aren't. There are people out there who probably could do that convincingly.
So how about if I reword what I said to: only people who have convinced those in charge here they are Christians, and hence have been able to register, can post here.
Are you therefore saying that I am a Christian?
You wrote in your profile that you are. And those in charge let you register so they evidently believe you are. I don't have a basis for disbelieving that you are one. However I don't agree with everything you say about Christians and sin. If a Christian steals I think that's just as much sin to God as if a non-Christian does. (Although I don't believe the Christian will lose their salvation by sinning, which is what this thread is about, I think) And I don't believe Christians can't ever have evil intents. What the Christians have, theologically speaking, that non-Christians don't have - is power through the Holy Spirit to not sin. They can choose whether they avail themselves of that power or not. And they don't always choose to avail themselves of it in my experience.
A sin is a sin. No matter who commits it. The sin of Christians is paid for by Jesus' death but it's still sin. Suppose your parent said to your bank - if Ruht spends more money than he/she has, take what you need from my account and pay his/her debt, does that mean that you didn't go into debt? Of course not. You did just as much as if you would have to pay it off. But in fact someone else has promised to pay. And their promise doesn't necessarily mean they won't be upset with you for going into debt - for your unwise amount of spending, that they made up for.
But I expect you agree with this partly, at least, as an analogy.
AITB
R
Ruht
Guest
Since this was written in regard to Don's statement about me, then I believe I have the right to respond to it.
One can never walk in the flesh once one is saved, for one is forever not in the flesh, but in the Spirit when one becomes saved:
"BUT YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, BUT IN THE SPIRIT, IF SO BE THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU, Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS." - Romans 8:9
If you are not in the flesh, you cannot possibly walk, crawl, run, fly or do anything else in the flesh.
The saved are no longer in the flesh, and all saved are in the Spirit, forever.
"Walk" in the flesh simply means to move forward in your Christian life and direction the Lord is leading you, in a faster pace than a crawl or a standstill. All saved are in the Spirit, but some are at a standstill or a very slow pace while being led of the Spirit, because of their Christian immaturity; which is usually the result of spiritual ignorance and lack of faith.
Galatians says: "Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."(Galatians 5:16) What this means is that when one puts himself back under the law, then one is giving the tempter a means to tempt. For the strength of sin is the law.
When the Spirit is leading you, he does not lead you to attempted righteousness to written laws, but to grace, where all things are lawful and where therefore the tempter has no place in which to tempt you, and therefore "lusts" are assuaged in you, the "lusts of the flesh," meaning the things the spirit of sin vies for.
Galatians then reminds the reader that all saved are indeed in the Spirit, not in the flesh, but that they can be slowed in their following of the Spirit, through their turning to the written law:
"And they that are Christ's have CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH THE AFFECTIONS AND LUSTS. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of VAIN GLORY, provoking one another, envying one another." - Galatians 5:24-28
Notice how this passage reveals the distinction and difference of living in the Spirit versus walking in the Spirit. As I said, we all live in the Spirit when we are saved, however we can slow down our following of the Holy Spirit when we turn from grace unto justification through attempted obedience to written law.
This is what is meant by "Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." For, trying to justify yourself through attempted obedience to written law is vanity, just as the writer of Galatians previously said to these Galatians in Galatians 3:4.
When we seek justification through attempted obedience to written law, we become self-righteous holier-than-thous, who puff ourselves up and put forth the judgmental finger on others, thinking we are doing the "Lord's work" when we do. We are constantly "provoking" others by our judgmental self-righteousness, and envying those who we think are such great, godly people. We exalt men, including ourselves, rather than Christ, when we think men are capable of obtaining righteousness through their own servitude of God.
There are a lot of pompous holier-than-thous in the church, and the reason they are this way is because of their lack of understanding of grace, GOD'S righteousness, and their putting forth of their own righteousness.
Churches can be very nauseating places when they are full of such people, as self-righteousness is perhaps the greatest wickedness there is upon this earth, as Christ has said that such people will receive the greater damnation. It was the self-righteous, religious legalists who killed all of the prophets and Christ himself, as well as who also killed Stephen. They detest grace, and they are greatly offended by it when it is preached, as it pricks at their ego-worshipping consciences.
Let me tell the babes in Christ in here this, and anyone else who will benefit: The "flesh" is not our literal bodies, the "flesh" simply means those not born of the Holy Spirit. For our saved body is not evil, it is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore when you read things like "and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh," that simply means that you will not fulfill the same desires and temptations that those who are not born of God experience. It is not saying that you have two natures and you must be in a constant battle to suppress the nature of the flesh.
A person only has one nature, and nowhere in the Bible does it say otherwise. The doctrine of "two natures" is another invention of legalism. It stems from those engaging in legalism trying to explain things.
However, Christ has told you that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, and an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. He has told you either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt. He has also told you that old things have passed away in you, that behold, ALL things have become new. And if ALL things have become new, then the only way you could still have an "old nature" is for God to have then created a new, old nature in you.
Which he most assuredly did not.
Learn of your salvation, people, rest in the promises of God and what he has done for you. He has done it all, have faith in him and learn of him.
God bless.
Ok, you said "when we such-and-such". Is such-and-such a sin? If so then we can't do it according to you since we can't sin.
So why did you say "when we" as if we can do it?
I'm still confused about what you believe.
Why did Paul write "In your anger do not sin" if it's impossible to sin? Why did Jesus say "Don't judge" if it's not a sin - and if it is a sin but we can't sin, why did he tell us not to, since we can't sin anyway?
AITB
R
Ruht
Guest
And of course the egotistical legalist thinks what he/she understands is what "everyone" else understands.
Legalists often engage in a form of "spiritual correctness." They are elitists who think so highly of themselves that they have trouble comprehending that others may not think like them; which is why it is reflected in their communications.
Hey, "ONENESS," when you say "no one," do you think of yourself qualified to speak for the entire world?
Of course you do, otherwise you wouldn't have said such a foolish thing.
That's right, I haven't. For I told you that I wanted you to tell me what your position on the matter is, so your own position on the matter could trap you in your erroneous, hypocritical theology.
So please, proceed.
If there is no forgiveness, then what happens to those who do such a thing? do they receive eternal damnation?
You tell me.
You tell me.
Following you so far.
(You would like to know, though, wouldn't you.)
You said it, I didn't.
Therefore, have YOU ever committed a single one of those acts, after you were saved?
Now watch, suddenly the finger-pointing legalist will have a change of heart (on him/herself).
Yes, the Bible most assuredly says that. So what's your point? Have you done a single one of those since you have been saved?
You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. Not a clue.
It is true, the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are indeed foolishness unto him: indeed neither can he know them, because they are indeed only able to be discerned through the Holy Spirit, the author of who wrote them. (I Corinthians 2:14)
God bless, Oneness.
Romans 7:14-20
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
As you can plainly see, the dual nature is clearly in the Bible.
Hi Nils,
Paul is pretty clear here that we all have an inner struggle with the sin that abounds in this world. A pull from two different directions as it were. We will do good and at times we will not do good. I hate to raise my voice with my children but at times it happens and I do the thing which I don't want to do and I have found myself also knowing that I should do something and not doing it. I have felt like Paul and thought to myself, "what a wretched man I am". I am not sure why the dual nature thing even matters or why it matters if we say that God does not recognize our sin so we are not sinners or that we sin because we are saved sinners. Paul amade it clear that we will do wrong until the day we are "perfected" in Christ, and that ain't happening on this OLD earth.
In Christ,
Brian
I must say I am still surprised that Tuor is the only one who has said he is praying for my terminal friend and his family.
[ August 29, 2002, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Briguy ]
Paul is pretty clear here that we all have an inner struggle with the sin that abounds in this world. A pull from two different directions as it were. We will do good and at times we will not do good. I hate to raise my voice with my children but at times it happens and I do the thing which I don't want to do and I have found myself also knowing that I should do something and not doing it. I have felt like Paul and thought to myself, "what a wretched man I am". I am not sure why the dual nature thing even matters or why it matters if we say that God does not recognize our sin so we are not sinners or that we sin because we are saved sinners. Paul amade it clear that we will do wrong until the day we are "perfected" in Christ, and that ain't happening on this OLD earth.
In Christ,
Brian
I must say I am still surprised that Tuor is the only one who has said he is praying for my terminal friend and his family.
[ August 29, 2002, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Briguy ]
Romans 7:14-20
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
As you can plainly see, the dual nature is clearly in the Bible.</font>[/QUOTE]Weeeelll, it's in the NIV.
But the more literal translations say "flesh", not sinful nature.
I think it's confusing to talk of 'two natures', myself. However I agree that Christians are pulled two ways and I regard Paul as writing about his experience as a believer, not before. However, some Christians think that passage refers to Paul before his conversion (I think - I'm not clear on this actually - all I know is they don't regard it as the experience of a mature believer - but I do).
AITB
R
Ruht
Guest
Romans 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
It seems the KJV also records Paul's struggle against the sin that dwelleth with him.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but the KJV doesn't call the 'flesh' the 'sinful nature'. That was what I was referring to.
AITB
And of course the egotistical legalist thinks what he/she understands is what "everyone" else understands.
Legalists often engage in a form of "spiritual correctness." They are elitists who think so highly of themselves that they have trouble comprehending that others may not think like them; which is why it is reflected in their communications.
Hey, "ONENESS," when you say "no one," do you think of yourself qualified to speak for the entire world?
Of course you do, otherwise you wouldn't have said such a foolish thing.
That's right, I haven't. For I told you that I wanted you to tell me what your position on the matter is, so your own position on the matter could trap you in your erroneous, hypocritical theology.
So please, proceed.
If there is no forgiveness, then what happens to those who do such a thing? do they receive eternal damnation?
You tell me.
You tell me.
Following you so far.
(You would like to know, though, wouldn't you.)
You said it, I didn't.
Therefore, have YOU ever committed a single one of those acts, after you were saved?
Now watch, suddenly the finger-pointing legalist will have a change of heart (on him/herself).
Yes, the Bible most assuredly says that. So what's your point? Have you done a single one of those since you have been saved?
You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. Not a clue.
It is true, the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are indeed foolishness unto him: indeed neither can he know them, because they are indeed only able to be discerned through the Holy Spirit, the author of who wrote them. (I Corinthians 2:14)
God bless, Oneness.</font>[/QUOTE]
You see Ruhf, here is where your problem lies, you say what you say not to share with people but to prove to everyone else that you are right. Im not going to judge you but by your post where is the love that you should be sharieng. But instead of shareing you want to trap us. And this is what is said about a man that like that
And I asked you a question. My views are not what is on trial. You are the one that wants to answer all the questions, I have a curious mind. So please tell me. If you show me in the bible that I am wrong. Praise God, I will gladly say so. Ask Don, he has shown me a lot. And I have shown him some things
@ DONThere is no forgiveness and yes they receive eternal damnation Matt 12:32 Mark 3:29
I dont know you. You claim to be perfect so I dont know. I have if that is what you are asking.
No I really would not. If you are doing something that is b/t you and God not you and Me. I got enough problems to worry about. thats what your pastor is there for. But I will pray for you if you would like.
ALL THE TIME, BUT I GET BACK UP AND KEEP TRYING TO DO BETTER.
Yea I sure have. And Thank God I did not stay deceived.
No, May God bless you. He's blessed me enough and if he never does nething for me again, I will be content.
Take care
R
Ruht
Guest
You see Oneness, I say what I say to prove that Christ is right so that people don't have to be in bondage under finger-pointers like yourself.
You cannot judge my heart, for my righteousness is of the Lord, and your deceitful accusations are therefore in vain.
I TOLD you what I was doing FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, not MINE, but your OWN desire to stroke your OWN ego has you not even being able to appreciate that or to understand that. I didn't hide anything what I was doing to try and make you look bad, I instead WARNED you for your own good, so you would THINK before you foolishly embarked on what you were about to embark on.
If I was trying to do something for my own gain, I would have hidden it from you, fool.
Oh shut up, you already have. Who in the heck do you think you are fooling? Your self-righteousness is as nauseating as can be.
Legalists are the most NAUSEATING people I have ever encountered. It is no wonder Christ preferred supping with prostitutes and publicans rather than the religiosity.
Have a nice day, viper.
Now come on, lady with her hair in a bun or whatever, it's your turn to stick me with something, you know you want to. Then go thank God you're not as bad as ol' Ruht, will you, dear.
And the storm rages on. Preach grace to a room full of vipers, and it always does.
God bless.
[ August 29, 2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Ruht ]