Eternal Security

[Ruht]

I understand why, hun, I can read about it in the Bible, in what happened to others who preach grace.

Come on, dear, stick me again, you know it makes you feel better.

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them ye shall scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." - Matthew 23:34&35

The church is a very dangerous place to be for the health of those preaching the righteousness of Christ, as Christ has spoken. Upon the religiosity is all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.

I began this thread knowing full well what was coming, as I know what happens when grace is preached in a "synagogue" and "temple" full of vipers. I stated then to let the wind blow, as this house is built upon a rock. And it has, yet their wind can't make fall that rock, so they will try and take away that rock with anything else they can.

God bless.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Ruht:
I understand why, hun, I can read about it in the Bible, in what happened to others who preach grace.

Come on, dear, stick me again, you know it makes you feel better.

Are you trying to tempt me to do evil here or encourage me to do good?

The church is a very dangerous place to be for the health of those preaching the righteousness of Christ, as Christ has spoken. Upon the religiosity is all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.

Ah, so you are anti-church. Kind of a loner, huh? Maybe it would be good for you to get into some relationships with other Christians where you have some accountability.

AITB

[ August 29, 2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

[Don]

Okay, if I understand correctly, I did manage to translate what Ruht was saying.

Now, Oneness, consider this:

A young girl had been raised being taught that even though she was saved at an early age, she still had to keep the commandments of Moses to "retain" that salvation.

Then one day, she read about grace, and learned the difference between being saved by grace and being saved by works.

After consideration, she approached a pastor about it. "I understand now," she said, "but isn't this a dangerous doctrine? Why, anyone learning this would realize they could go out and drink, and carouse, and do all sorts of awful things."

The pastor nodded agreement. "Yes, they could. Are you about to go out and do those things yourself?"

She looked at him horrified. "Of course not!" was her quick reply.

"Well, why not?" asked the pastor.

"Because I love Jesus," she responded, nodding her head that she understood.

So let me ask those that don't believe that once you're saved, you're always saved:

Are you going to go out and do those things that you know God hates?

If not, why not? So you can stay saved, or because you love Jesus?

If you are, (i.e., walking in the flesh), how can you say you were saved in the first place?
-------------------------------------------
That about cover it, Ruht?

[ August 29, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[Eladar]

Don,

According to 1 Corinthians 5:5, exactly when it is that we are saved?

 

[GH]

Hi All,

Jesus said that the rich young man would fail to "make it" (whatever your interpretation of "it" might be). But when they inquired of Him about it, He told them that salvation is all in God's hands. Read it:

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astounded and said, "Then who can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible." (Mat 19:25-26 - NRSV)

For mortals (King James says "With men") it is impossible, but for God all things are possible. God can do it, you can’t!

If your next thought begins with "I did this or You must do that," your faith is in vain.

Remember no boasting allowed.

Diane

 

[Ruht]

"That about cover it, Ruht?"

God's not stupid, Don. He wouldn't save us and give us eternal life without removing that which causes men to sin in the first place. Didn't God ban Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden, lest they took from the tree of life and eat, and live forever in their sinful, fallen state?

That little girl was right Don, as your "parable" is in reference to the birth of the Holy Spirit, which takes place the moment one is saved.

If God had only saved us and not removed the spirit of sin and then given us the Holy Spirit, it would have been like allowing Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life after they had sinned.

See here God say the very same thing:

"For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodomah, and been made like unto Gormorrah." - Romans 9:28&29

This passage is referring to the short "work" of salvation, which is simply the accepting of what Jesus Christ did upon the cross for our sins, and the "seed" of the new birth of the Holy Spirit, which changes us from sinners into saints. See I John 3:9 and I Peter 1:23 for another mention of the Holy Spirit being referred to as a "seed."

And no, legalists, the "work" of accepting Christ as your personal saviour means the "action" of accepting him, not the 2nd definition of doing something in exchange for pay. It is the equivalent of walking up to the tree of life, taking its fruit, and eating it. That is not a "work" for pay, but an action of receiving it.

Yes Don, you are overall correct.

I may be gone for a week or so, for a certain monitor is wishing to be noticed by me and to flex his "muscle." I'd imagine even more so now after I have exposed his blatant hypocrisy.

Glad someone is understanding a little about the new birth and its grace.

God bless

 

[Alex]

OK, Ruht, I guess we both have blasted each other enough, agreeded?

So, would you kindly answer a few questions without answering with a question?

As I have followed your posts, it seems very evident that you do not attend a church service or, maybe not even belong to a church.(my evil opinion). Why do I say this? Because you come across as having the whole bible correctly discerned and as per your post, you disagree with most who try to deal with you. We are either fools, legalists, babes in Christ, non-Christian and on and on. As you said, churches are full of sinners and I don't believe you feel good in the company of those who attend church as a lot aren't perfect(without sin).

If you are of love as you say, then why all the name calling to almost all who oppose your view as is evident on this thread....not just to me?

Now I did say the WHOLE Bible and to my(again...opinion), I do not believe any one past, present or future will ever knew it all.

I asked you some questions that you never answered, so I will ask them again:

I believe in the Trinity, do you?

I believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior....here I believe you do also, so it is a statement rather than a question.

I believe God created man with a free will of choice..even as a Christian, do you? And, if NO, then why? My reason is that, as I said earlier, we would be robots(pre-programed) to do what God programed us to do and this would mean that we wouldn't have a choice to believe in Him by our own faith and LOVE for Him.

I believe we are above sin(above the LAWS), as Christians because we have accepted Christ and thus are forgiven of past, present and future sins. In this context, we could agree as to being sin free but not that we can't sin as you seem to think. To sin and not be guilty of sin is the point. I agree that we shouldn't sin as a choice, but we often sin as one has posted via anger. You seem to be very angry with some of your posts, is this a sin? So, are we saying the same thing only in a different way?

Last one, what is your definition of a legalist?

Please try ,for at least this post, to use a simple, logical approach to your answers based on the scriptures in your OWN words. Thanks!

This is enought for now and I hope we can now make some headway without everyone else as being wrong but you.

God Bless............Alex

[ August 29, 2002, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Alex ]

 

[Alex]

TO ALL: On my previous post to Ruht I would also like to get your responses to my questions. The, in most part are to him, but I still would like to see how I fit in with y'all(southern ). I'm still igornant as to what is meant by "legalist", as per our way of believing.

How about you Don as we are old friends!

God Bless........Alex

[ August 30, 2002, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Alex ]

 

[Don]

Ah, Ruht--you're glad I'm understanding a little?

Slight error. I already understood.

I was simply translating your verbose replies into something a little easier to swallow.

---------------------------------------

Alex, Ruht seems to be using the term "legalist" here to describe anyone who believes that we must obey biblical guidelines out of some sense of duty.

Something that I and others here have iterated time and again, we work because of our salvation, not towards our salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

-----------------------------------------

Tuor,

"According to 1 Corinthians 5:5, exactly when it is that we are saved?"

I would suppose, taking into account the context of this verse (see verse 1), if I were an unrepentent fornicator posing as a Christian, right after I was church disciplined in an effort to restore me (see also Galatians 6:1).

[ August 30, 2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by Don:
Ah, Ruht--you're glad I'm understanding a little?

Slight error. I already understood.

I was simply translating your verbose replies into something a little easier to swallow.

Thanks, Don!

Anyothers for a response?

God Bless.........Alex

 

[Eladar]

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Restore him to what? Restore his state of salvation? That can't be correct.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Paul states that we will saved on that day.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Ruht:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"You see Ruhf, here is where your problem lies, you say what you say not to share with people but to prove to everyone else that you are right."

You see Oneness, I say what I say to prove that Christ is right so that people don't have to be in bondage under finger-pointers like yourself.

You cannot judge my heart, for my righteousness is of the Lord, and your deceitful accusations are therefore in vain.

I TOLD you what I was doing FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, not MINE, but your OWN desire to stroke your OWN ego has you not even being able to appreciate that or to understand that. I didn't hide anything what I was doing to try and make you look bad, I instead WARNED you for your own good, so you would THINK before you foolishly embarked on what you were about to embark on.

If I was trying to do something for my own gain, I would have hidden it from you, fool.

"Im not going to judge you but by your post where is the love that you should be sharieng."

Oh shut up, you already have. Who in the heck do you think you are fooling? Your self-righteousness is as nauseating as can be.

Legalists are the most NAUSEATING people I have ever encountered. It is no wonder Christ preferred supping with prostitutes and publicans rather than the religiosity.

Have a nice day, viper.

Now come on, lady with her hair in a bun or whatever, it's your turn to stick me with something, you know you want to. Then go thank God you're not as bad as ol' Ruht, will you, dear.

And the storm rages on. Preach grace to a room full of vipers, and it always does.

God bless.</font>[/QUOTE]

You see Oneness, I say what I say to prove that Christ is right so that people don't have to be in bondage under finger-pointers like yourself.

First off, Christ is not on trial here. He does not have to be proven right. He is already right. The only thing that needs to be on trial is our understandings.

Second, who is under bondage? You just cant see the freedom in bondage. We are of Christ now, We are to take up OUR cross and follow him. We are to deny our selves.(Matthew 10:38 ,Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27)

There are things that we have to do, and we must obey him or we cannot have salvation. The bible says that we must obey to have the HOly Ghost.(Acts 5:32). You your self said that you must have the Holy Ghost to go to heaven (romans 8:9)

Oneness: If one does not have the Holy Spirit, one is not saved:

"Ruht: ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

We must obey him to receive salvation

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Is obeying just beleiving? If it is than there would be no need to take up our cross. Takeing up our cross requires work.

Look I dont need your pitty b/c you think I am bonded b/c of standards or what ever. God gave us certain standards in the bible.

i.e. Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

I dont care how "saved" anyone is. If they are not following after peace, and holliness they cannot see the Lord. Scripture like this far surpasses the "Easy beliveism theory" that you are trying to support.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Again, I dont care how much you believe or how "saved" anyone is, unless they forgive people they are not going to be forgiven.

The life that I live is the one that I have chosen. So if I decide to sit under a Man of God and sit under a standard, I am not bonded. If I choose not to go anywhere that my flesh wants to go does not cause me to be bonded. Its a result of yeilding to Gods word and his Spirit other than the flesh. So when we yeild ourselves to the Spirit we do not Sin. But if decide to yield to the flesh and go to the nude bar and commit adultry, I have sinned b/c I was not walking after the Spirit. So you can see theres a freedom in bondage. When we are bonded by the Spirit we are Free.

You cannot judge my heart, for my righteousness is of the Lord, and your deceitful accusations are therefore in vain.

And I appoligize. I did not try to judge your heart. Please show me where I did? That is not my place. But the Bible says that there are certain things once we belive that we need to move on and do.

I didn't hide anything what I was doing to try and make you look bad,

That really sounds like the "Spirit" thing to do. So in other words you were trying to decieve me or trap me. You were trying to make me look like a fool. And again Jeremiah 5:26 calls that a wicked person.

If I was trying to do something for my own gain, I would have hidden it from you, fool.

Matthew 5:22:... but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Did i say that or did God?

Oh shut up, you already have. Who in the heck do you think you are fooling? Your self-righteousness is as nauseating as can be.

Cant wait to visit your church

Legalists are the most NAUSEATING people I have ever encountered. It is no wonder Christ preferred supping with prostitutes and publicans rather than the religiosity.

Do you guys hear something?

Have a nice day, viper

 

[Don]

Originally posted by Tuor:
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Restore him to what? Restore his state of salvation? That can't be correct.

Quite correct; restore him from his fault, not "restore his salvation."

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Paul states that we will saved on that day.

Depends on whether you believe Paul was talking about the final judgement, the millenial reign, or today. Again, the reference that you bring up was referring to an unrepentent fornicator, that the church was allowing to continue in sin.

As Ruht pointed out, why would someone who is truly saved have the inclination to continue in sin once its pointed out that its wrong?

When I was saved, I immediately stopped binge drinking and visiting nudie bars; not because someone told me to, but because I knew I wasn't honoring God with either of them. Plese tell me how someone can say they're saved, and claim that continuing to fornicate is honoring God.

 

[Eladar]

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul must have believed that the day of the Lord was in the future. If it were a present date, then the action would be meaningless.

By the way, you are making quite an assumption when you say that the person in question never lived a Godly lifestyle out of the love for God.

As to your question...

You don't know what your future holds. There are plenty of examples of people who lived a Godly life, but at one point returned to their sinful lifestyle. You don't know for a fact what kind of lifestyle you will have 10 or 20 years from now. You may have confidence, but you don't know for a fact.

 

[Don]

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

I most definitely have assurance, Tuor. Those that draw back unto perdition are like the seed that fell among stones or thorns; there is no root (no true salvation) or love of the world is placed over salvation.

Jesus also said in John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Jesus has made us a promise. I fully believe that He keeps that promise. Thus, I am most decidedly assured.

 

[Eladar]

So you believe you have a perfect perception of reality?

This is very unbiblical.

 

[Don]

Originally posted by Tuor:
So you believe you have a perfect perception of reality?

This is very unbiblical.

?????

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Briguy (Brian?),

You wrote, "We however, understand that when a person gets saved God grabs them, and though we may do things wrong after that God will never let go."

Turn with me to the first epistle of St. John, Chapter 5, verses 11 and following.

"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life. I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

Our Father's Word teaches both you and I that there is sin that does not kill and that there is sin that does kill. Kill what? Answer: the life given to us by God in his Son.

The Catholic teaching of sanctifying grace sits will with this teaching of St. John. We have the life of God within our souls. If we sin venially (venial - n.; capable of being forgiven; excusable), we are forgiven by simply asking God in prayer to forgive our sin. And then, of course, there is mortal sin, sin that kills the life of God within our souls.

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam,

Carson

 

[Eladar]

Don,

In order to have total assurance, one must have a perfect perception of reality.

 

[Frank]

Tuor:
The Bible says in I John 5:17, ALL unrighteousness is sin: and there is not a sin unto death." In James 5:19,20, the Bible says." Brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: Let him know that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." In Acts 8:13 Simon became a Christian. In verse 19 he sins by trying to buy the ability to pass on the miraculous gifts. In verses 22-24 Simon's fault was made known by Peter. He was told to repent. vs. 22,23. Repentance and prayer followed. vs. 24. Gal. 6:1,2 are written as admonitions to Christians ( Gal. 1:2,6). who fall from grace. Gal. 5:4. Overtaken by a fault is sin. It is the duty of the spiritual to restore the sinner. such is the case with Simon in Acts 8. Sin according to the Bible, condemns us if we do not repent. I Jn. 5:17, James 5;19,20, Acts 8:12-24.