Eternal Security

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

HP: Notice clearly the condition of obedience in verse 27. What I so often hear is that one can do his own thing, sin in whatever degree he wants to, and can still entertain a hope of eternal life. Not so according to this passage. “My sheep hear my voice…..and follow me.” Who can say they are following Christ when in the daily commission of repeated sin? Such a one is simply deceived. “1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Are we, with the Lord’s help, keeping ourselves from sin?

 

[steaver]

HP: Notice clearly the condition of obedience in verse 27. What I so often hear is that one can do his own thing, sin in whatever degree he wants to, and can still entertain a hope of eternal life. Not so according to this passage. “My sheep hear my voice…..and follow me.” Who can say they are following Christ when in the daily commission of repeated sin? Such a one is simply deceived. “1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Are we, with the Lord’s help, keeping ourselves from sin?

Amen! :thumbs:

God Bless!

 

[Mr.M]

HP: Notice clearly the condition of obedience in verse 27. What I so often hear is that one can do his own thing, sin in whatever degree he wants to, and can still entertain a hope of eternal life. Not so according to this passage. “My sheep hear my voice…..and follow me.” Who can say they are following Christ when in the daily commission of repeated sin? Such a one is simply deceived. “1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Are we, with the Lord’s help, keeping ourselves from sin?

So tell me most holy one (and yes the sarcasm is deliberate) you sin, I sin but others apparently sin in a way that causes them to lose their salvation. So what is the big difference between YOU, ME and THEM? You sin and so do they. How many sins does it take for one to cross the line to go from being YOU to being THEM?

Please tell me the difference between YOU and the THEM that sin to the point (a point you can't exactly say where but claim it exists) they suddenly LOSE their salvation. Hmmmmmmmmmm?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I do NOT believe when a Christian committed a sin, then lose salvation immediately. I believe when a Christian turn astray or backslide slowly in a process for a long term, while remain in dark or sins for a long time without confess or repent to Christ. By the time, a Christian dies(physical), who remain in dark without confess or repent, will be lost(spiritually). In James 1:14-16 tells us, when a Christian carries sins, and trap with sins, it shall bring forth to death(spiritual), unless, a Christian repents before too late at death(physical).

Luke 15:11-32 tells us about the lost son, he was with his father at the first estate(place). When sons decides turn away from his father. It takes process for a son to become lost before finally to repent and return back to his father. Otherwise, if suppose, a son remains in dark without repentance, he is remain LOST, period.

Bible teaches us, we must walk in the light daily, or if we walk continue in the dark, then, we shall be lost. That means, if we turn away from the Lord for a long time, without repentance by the time we die(physical), then we would be lost(spiritual)- period. Christ spoken of this parable is a matter of salvation.

Yes, a Christian could lose salvation, if turn away from the Lord for a long time, never repent back to the Lord at death(physical), then always be lost beyond Christian's death.

Luke 15:11-32 is very clearly teaching against unconditional security salvation doctrine.

While son is backslidding, his father still love his son. He never give up his love on his son, he is long-suffering(patience with mercy) for him. When his son finally repent return back to his father. Then, his father immediately forgived him. Father is the type of Jesus Christ.

Same with 2 Peter 3:9 says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men coun slackness; but is long-suffering toward us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God's will that He doesn't want all people go to hell. He wants all people come to repentance for salvation. This is God's love toward all people. Understand, God cannot force all people to repent, people have their choice to make decision, want to remain in dark, or turn around to light and to follow Christ.

Luke 15:11-32 clears teaching us that, we all have freewill to make choice, we can turn away from the Lord, if we can. God cannot force us to do. God allows us to make decision. God desires all people to repentance of sins, and to follow God, so, shall have eternal life.

Sad, most people choice dark rather than light, that why they are on the way to hell than heaven.

Bible clears teaching us that a Christian could lose salvation, if remain in dark for a long time till death without repentance.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 15:11-32 tells us about the lost son, he was with his father at the first estate(place). When sons decides turn away from his father. It takes process for a son to become lost before finally to repent and return back to his father. Otherwise, if suppose, a son remains in dark without repentance, he is remain LOST, period.
!

Indeed many such OSAS debunking illustrations.

Matt 18 the illustration of "Forgiveness revoked!"
The 4 kinds of ground with the thorns and the rocks all having life spring forth but then dying.
John 15 the branches that are IN CHRIST being severed from Christ and burned in the fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Notice clearly the condition of obedience in verse 27. What I so often hear is that one can do his own thing, sin in whatever degree he wants to, and can still entertain a hope of eternal life. Not so according to this passage. “My sheep hear my voice…..and follow me.” Who can say they are following Christ when in the daily commission of repeated sin? Such a one is simply deceived. “1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

This is a good point that fully debunks the 4-point Calvinist idea of denying the perseverance of the saints in order to invent an OSAS doctrine that is immune from all Bible texts to the contrary.

However there is another form of OSAS where the ones "Once Saved Always Saved" are in fact AGREED upon by BOTH those who DO accept OSAS nad those who reject it.

in THAT form of OSAS only the ones that DO persevere firm until the end and go to heaven were "ever saved". Certainly ALL would agree that such saints were saved and that they never waivered-- never became lost.

Questions to be asked in THAT model:

1. "what about those that did not go to heaven?" were any of them caught in the MANY traps that we are warned against in scripture (traps like "Forgiveness revoked" in matt 18).

2. What is the danger of an OSAS that insists that you MUST persevere firm until the end to really be saved? It certainly is in less danger than the Perseverance-denying form of OSAS. So what is the "danger" in this kind of OSAS held to by both 3-point and 5-point Calvinists?

BTW - it is kind of ironic that Arminians that deny the man-made-doctrine of OSAS are in fact BETWEEN those two camps of OSAS-believing Calvinists. That group of Arminians joins with the 4-point Calvinists in agreeing that some were in fact SAVED before they fell into backlsidding and denial of the Gospel. They also agree with the 3 and 5 Point Calvinists that PERSEVERANCE of the saints IS required to go to heaven.

In other words the two groups of OSAS are FARTHER from each other than they are from that group of Arminians!!

 

[Bro. Williams]

I believe when a Christian turn astray or backslide slowly in a process for a long term, while remain in dark or sins for a long time without confess or repent to Christ. By the time, a Christian dies(physical), who remain in dark without confess or repent, will be lost(spiritually).

When is that time? Why no definites?

Bible teaches us, we must walk in the light daily, or if we walk continue in the dark, then, we shall be lost. That means, if we turn away from the Lord for a long time, without repentance by the time we die(physical), then we would be lost(spiritual)- period. Christ spoken of this parable is a matter of salvation.

When is that time? Why no definites?

Yes, a Christian could lose salvation, if turn away from the Lord for a long time, never repent back to the Lord at death(physical), then always be lost beyond Christian's death.

When is that time? Why no definites?

Luke 15:11-32 is very clearly teaching against unconditional security salvation doctrine.

While son is backslidding, his father still love his son. He never give up his love on his son, he is long-suffering(patience with mercy) for him. When his son finally repent return back to his father. Then, his father immediately forgived him. Father is the type of Jesus Christ.

So was the son still in the father's hand? Was he able to keep him from evil and from falling?

Bible clears teaching us that a Christian could lose salvation, if remain in dark for a long time till death without repentance.

When is that time? Why no definites?

 

[Bro. Williams]

A Question:

How many of those here who believe you can lose your salvation, have lost it?

 

[Bro. Williams]

Question two: For those who have lost it, what do you do with:

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[BobRyan]

A Question:

How many of those here who believe you can lose your salvation, have lost it?

What difference does it make when it comes to rejecting or accepting what scripture says on this subject?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This is a good point that fully debunks the 4-point Calvinist idea of denying the perseverance of the saints in order to invent an OSAS doctrine that is immune from all Bible texts to the contrary.

However there is another form of OSAS where the ones "Once Saved Always Saved" are in fact AGREED upon by BOTH those who DO accept OSAS nad those who reject it.

in THAT form of OSAS only the ones that DO persevere firm until the end and go to heaven were "ever saved". Certainly ALL would agree that such saints were saved and that they never waivered-- never became lost.

Questions to be asked in THAT model:

1. "what about those that did not go to heaven?" were any of them caught in the MANY traps that we are warned against in scripture (traps like "Forgiveness revoked" in matt 18).

2. What is the danger of an OSAS that insists that you MUST persevere firm until the end to really be saved? It certainly is in less danger than the Perseverance-denying form of OSAS. So what is the "danger" in this kind of OSAS held to by both 3-point and 5-point Calvinists?

BTW - it is kind of ironic that Arminians that deny the man-made-doctrine of OSAS are in fact BETWEEN those two camps of OSAS-believing Calvinists. That group of Arminians joins with the 4-point Calvinists in agreeing that some were in fact SAVED before they fell into backlsidding and denial of the Gospel. They also agree with the 3 and 5 Point Calvinists that PERSEVERANCE of the saints IS required to go to heaven.

In other words the two groups of OSAS are FARTHER from each other than they are from that group of Arminians!!

But we are glad to have that middle ground between the two extremes.:godisgood:

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

question for the group - what is the best way to spin these texts around so that OSAS could still be true? What would you have to do to these texts?

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??





Warning regarding the Need to remain faithful – OR God simply reminding himself that He needs to make us persevere in remaining faithful if He wants to save us.

Fallen and yet hoping to be “grafted BACK in again” into the vine of Christ!

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[Bro. Williams]

What difference does it make when it comes to rejecting or accepting what scripture says on this subject?

in Christ,

Bob

There is no sense in side-stepping the question. It is a simple question.

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by Bro. Williams
A Question:

How many of those here who believe you can lose your salvation, have lost it?

I am no prophet, but will predict that you will not find one. :thumbs: Very telling indeed!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

"But we are glad to have that middle ground between the two extremes."

GE:

Talking of 'extremes', here's its ultimate: "... the danger of OSAS ..."!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

How do you find 'danger' in once being saved, always being saved?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Do you make God a liar?

 

[BobRyan]

There is no sense in side-stepping the question. It is a simple question.

The experience of anyone here who claims to have lost salvation (and we did have a poster here recently who claimed that it was lost then regained) does nothing to provide "support" for rejecting the scriptures given here that show OSAS to be false.

So again - you seem to be on a rabbit trail -- how is that supposed to help you in any way at all?

Parlor tricks and word-games are not substantive support for rejecting the scriptures given here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1061176&postcount=152

Notice this part even goes so far as to cut short the rabbit trail you have laid out -

Rom 11
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bro. Williams]

Parlor tricks and word-games are not substantive support:

Indeed you seem to be fond of them though! For you still evade the question.. poorly you do, but you still try.

Notice this part even goes so far as to cut short the rabbit trail you have laid out -

Rom 11
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Why would you give a passage speaking about the differences between Israel and Gentiles, where it is referencing the cutting off of a peoples, not an individuals' salvation? Come now. Until you answer my given question, there is no need to go further. But as a prophet has clearly stated already, you can't or won't, apparently. I will say, the truth is something that most try to avoid.

 

[BobRyan]

1. The "you" in Romans 11 is "individual".
2. The "Jews" that were cut off did not include Paul or Peter.
3. EACH one "stands only by their faith" that is an individual act.


Inidividual acts are the context and highlight for Romans 11 --


1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”


Paul seeks to save both Jew and Gentile - on an individual basis.

"God is able to graft them in Again".

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be [/quote]! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!


Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/b]

So this chapter DOES deal with INDIVIDUAL salvation and can NOT be spun around to only speak to "national acceptance".

Paul starts out the chapter debunking the idea that no individual Jew can be saved. He points to the fact that HE is an example of a Jew that rejected the Messiah and YET was saved. He argues that he seeks to save individual Jews. But in the case of Timothy and Eunice Paul argues that they were saved even as Jews prior to accepting Jesus as the Christ. Matt 18, and John 15 are all examples of individual salvation just as we see in Romans 11 - those who stand - stand by "their faith". And those cast out - are cast out for "their unbelief". These are "people".

These "inconvenient details" in scripture have so obviously truncated your rabbit trail that one wonders how you ever found a way to cling to that false interpretation for any length of time.

It is a sad commentary on the power of bias and the hold that man-made-tradition has over human thinking that these simple details could be ignored for so long.

in Christ,

Bob.