Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I fully agree with you here BR. With all of our disagreements, we also find great agreement on some important issues. :thumbs:
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Eternal Security
- Thread starter Iamodd4God
- Start date
HP: I fully agree with you here BR. With all of our disagreements, we also find great agreement on some important issues. :thumbs:
Brother Bob Romans 11 shows the difference between Israel and the Gentiles. The offer of the kingdom was a national offer to Israel. It would have had to have been accepted by the entire nation in order for the kingdom to have been established during Christ's early ministry.
It was not even while the apostles still preached the message to Israel after His death and resurrection.
When the offer was taken away from Israel is was given to individuals. So Israel was cut off as a nation, however for the Gentiles (and Jews today) the offer is individual in nature.
The biggest mistake that you are making however is equating the kingdom with everlasting life. Those are not the same message. Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. So the cutting off is for the 1,000 years not all of eternity.
Got to keep the messages in context! The gospel of the kingdom is not the same as the gospel of grace through faith apart from works. One requires ONLY a one-time faith in the "finished" works of Christ done on the individual's behalf, while the other requires a person's ongoing faith that produces proper works.
Contextually those two messages can not be combined or GRAVE errors will be made.
It was not even while the apostles still preached the message to Israel after His death and resurrection.
When the offer was taken away from Israel is was given to individuals. So Israel was cut off as a nation, however for the Gentiles (and Jews today) the offer is individual in nature.
The biggest mistake that you are making however is equating the kingdom with everlasting life. Those are not the same message. Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. So the cutting off is for the 1,000 years not all of eternity.
Got to keep the messages in context! The gospel of the kingdom is not the same as the gospel of grace through faith apart from works. One requires ONLY a one-time faith in the "finished" works of Christ done on the individual's behalf, while the other requires a person's ongoing faith that produces proper works.
Contextually those two messages can not be combined or GRAVE errors will be made.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
J. Jump said:
Paul begins making the argument in Romans 11 THAT HE IS A JEW and that JEWS are NOT rejected.
I don't see that in your comments above.
Paul then argues that EACH PERSON (whether Jew or GENTILE) stands ONLY by their faith - at that PERSONNAL level -- that is also missing from your commentary.
Paul argues that he seeks to save "SOME OF THEM" (unbelieving Jews)- at the "individual level" in the ministry that he engages in for Gentiles. That is also missing from your explanation.
Why do you avoid this explicit focus on individual salvtion in Romans 11??
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. The "you" in Romans 11 is "individual".
2. The "Jews" that were cut off did not include Paul or Peter.
3. EACH one "stands only by their faith" that is an individual act.
Inidividual acts are the context and highlight for Romans 11 --
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
Paul seeks to save both Jew and Gentile - on an individual basis.
"God is able to graft them in Again".
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be [/quote]! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/b]
So this chapter DOES deal with INDIVIDUAL salvation and can NOT be spun around to only speak to "national acceptance".
2. The "Jews" that were cut off did not include Paul or Peter.
3. EACH one "stands only by their faith" that is an individual act.
Inidividual acts are the context and highlight for Romans 11 --
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
Paul seeks to save both Jew and Gentile - on an individual basis.
"God is able to graft them in Again".
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be [/quote]! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/b]
So this chapter DOES deal with INDIVIDUAL salvation and can NOT be spun around to only speak to "national acceptance".
Bro. Williams
New Member
Paul and Peter are not cut off for two reasons,
1) they are part of the remnant
2) they are saved, and thier is neither Jew nor Gentile.
The chapter is dealing with the restoration of Israel and the fullness of the gentiles.
1) they are part of the remnant
2) they are saved, and thier is neither Jew nor Gentile.
The chapter is dealing with the restoration of Israel and the fullness of the gentiles.
Bob I did deal with the individual part of salvation. Might want to go back and re-read. Salvation "now" is individual, but it hasn't always been that way. Isreal was cut off as a nation not as individuals, because it was a national offer not an individual offer.
If it was individual then Christ would have established His kingdom when He was here, because there were individuals that did accept the offer, but He didn't because the entire nation had to accept it. That didn't happen and hasn't happened to this date.
If it was individual then Christ would have established His kingdom when He was here, because there were individuals that did accept the offer, but He didn't because the entire nation had to accept it. That didn't happen and hasn't happened to this date.
J. Jump said:
GE:
And will never happen; Paul says the anger of God stays on them until the end. Israel and any of Israel are saved just like any heathen is saved. God has but one Way.
J. Jump said:
GE:
I say the Jews as a nation will not become Christian, ever.
Then I believe and confess with the Church of all time, that Christ has established His Kingdom on earth through His Church of (sinnner-)believers, and presently, rules, already; but that He shall also come again and at and through His coming-again, shall destroy the last enemy, death, and all the ungodly while raising to life eternal upon this earth made new, all His Elect to establish His everlasting Kingdom in which there shall be no more sin or death! Halleluiah!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
J. Jump said:
1. There was NEVER a time when the Gospel was "saving whole nations but not individuals" -- making stuff up like that does not help your argument -- it is "another gospel".
2. Paul says there has ALWAYS been only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-11
3. Paul says "The GOSPEL was preached to US just as it was to THEM ALSO" Heb 4:1-2
4. NO TEXT says that as soon as the Gospel is addressed to INDIVIDUALs then the millennial kingdom begins on earth.
The bottom line is -- you have made sooooo many things up on this subject that at this point you need an entirely new Bible to go with the stories you keep telling.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Bro. Williams said:
And yet Paul INSISTS that HE IS a Jew -
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
The chapter is dealing with the fact that BOTH the saved Jews AND the saved Gentiles make up "ISRAEL" (the same point Paul made in Rom 9) and that by including BOTH in the one tree -- "IN THAT WAY - All Israel is saved".
In other words Paul's argument that God's true faithful Israel is ALL saints in ALL ages is confirmed in Romans 11 showing BOTH Jew AND Gentile comprising that true body of Christ - and Romans 2 STARTs us out by showing just how it is that BOTH Jew AND Gentile are saved -- and also on what basis some among BOTH Jew AND Gentiles are lost.
in Christ,
Bob
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Bro. William,
You keep on often saying, this is speak of nation Israel. Not always. Also, there is not a single verse find anywhere in context of chapter 11 saying that there will be physical ethnic Jew nation- Israel again.
This chapter talking about individual both Jew and Gentile.
Notice important verse 20 says, "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU stnadest by faith, be not highminded, but FEAR."
Whom, Paul wrote of verse 20 to?
Why should we fear?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
You keep on often saying, this is speak of nation Israel. Not always. Also, there is not a single verse find anywhere in context of chapter 11 saying that there will be physical ethnic Jew nation- Israel again.
This chapter talking about individual both Jew and Gentile.
Notice important verse 20 says, "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU stnadest by faith, be not highminded, but FEAR."
Whom, Paul wrote of verse 20 to?
Why should we fear?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Bro. Williams
New Member
BobRyan said:
Now I see your slant. So you think the church is the spiritual (or possibly even the now physical) Israel? Am I correct in my assumption?
Bro. Williams
New Member
Also, Paul was Jew by birth, his physical lineage had not changed, but as concerning the church there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
Bro. Williams
New Member
DeafPosttrib said:
Are you of like mind with BR in believing the church is Israel then?
The gentiles will be broken off just as Israel was broken off, yet israel has the promise of being grafted in again.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Bro. Williams said:
The "Body of Christ" are the saints - the people of God.
The "building " that is built on the one foundation stone -- is in fact the saints - the people of God, "the children of God" Rom 9.
The "one fold" that is shepherded by Christ pre-cross John 10 and post cross is in fact the saints -- the people of God, "The Children of God" Rom 9.
The branches that are placed in the vine in John 15 -- are in fact the saints - the people of God.
The branches (both natural AND those grafted in from the wild tree) in Romans 11 are the saints - the people of God.
They are ALSO called "Israel" in Romans 9 and "Jews" in Romans 2 and they are depicted as the pure woman in Rev 12.
Rom 2
28 For [b]he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter[/b]; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]
Romans 9
6But it is not as though the Word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7[b]nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants[/b], but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Bro. Williams
New Member
BR: I just took the time to look at your profile and as I have a friend who is a SDA, I wish to discontinue this conversation.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Are you a child of Abraham BW? If not, why not, and if you are, what does that mean to you to be one?
I am not SDA, but why should that matter in a debate forum of ‘different denominations’ to continue dialogue with others of a different denomination than one belongs to? You sound like one without sound reasons or logic to debate one with an opposing view. There is nothing particularly wrong with that, other than it would be far more in keeping with the spirit of love to just admit that rather than to cut off a debate on the grounds of the others denominational preference. If BR is wrong, why not simply speak the truth in love so that others might be edified by your superior knowledge and or understanding of the issues? I for one am listening to this debate. Enlighten us to the error of BR’s conclusions on this matter.
Are you a child of Abraham? What does that mean to you?