Eternal Security

[Darron Steele]

"It is hard to fathom how a person professing to be a believer can systematically reject Scripture and cling on to man made doctrines.

Make no mistake, people will continue to reject God’s Word, and they will cling to man’s word."

2Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Did I lie? If all I am doing is stating what the Scripture says, then is it me bashing people or God's Word bashing them?

People love this verse. They think it gives them just cause to start reviling anyone who disagrees with them about anything.

But does it? Nope. How does Paul mean "doctrine" (KJV)?

“As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and |those practicing homosexuality| for slave traders and liars and perjurers| and whatever else is contrary to | sound| doctrine” (NASB|TNIV|NASB|ASV).​

Here, "doctrine" refers to direct teachings on what people DO in their regular lives. You will find the same in all contexts of this in Paul's letters to 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus.

However, your opening post did not involve this passage. It did, however, reek with uncharitable accusations of those who disagree with you on this religious tenet.

"The eternal security teaching condones sin, where the Bible DOES NOT condone any sin."

Ask your preacher if these passages of Scripture includes Christians...

Romans 6:23; 1Corinthians 6:9-10; James 1:14-15; Revelation 21:8

Ask him how many lies it takes to make a person a liar, and then quote Revelation 21:8 to him, and watch him dance around it.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

Ken, you have refused to face up to what your opening post implies. I will address this momentarily.

I have no need to go to my former Baptist pastor and challenge him about this religious tenet. He is a minister to a congregation of the Lord's church with plenty `on his plate,' and there is no merit to bothering him with this; he has more important things to do. This matter has no relevance to good deeds for those who love Jesus Christ, and meets what Titus 3:8-9 calls "foolish questionings" and "strifes" that are "unprofitable" because they are unrelated to "good works" (ASV).

Per Matthew 7:20, we know Christ's followers by "by the deeds they do" (NBV) -- not their religious tenets. My former Baptist pastor's entire life shows that he loves the Lord and wants to please Him.

Your attitude is why you are not fit to be on the `soap box' you have placed yourself on. `When fear of loss of salvation is gone, there is no reason to live obediently for Christ.' The implication is: `The only reason I can think of to serve the Lord is to avoid eternal barbecue for myself.' The implication: `I really do not really desire to serve the Lord, but it beats going to eternal barbecue.'

I am going to be blunt this time: the core reason you serve the Lord is to keep yourself out of Hell. You cannot imagine any other reason to do so. Then you started a discourse to revile servants of the Lord Jesus Christ on this assumption. In reviling them on this assumption, you have actually denigrated yourself.

You do not want to please the Lord for the core purpose of making Him happy. 1 Corinthians 16:22a says "If anyone does not love the Lord,| let him be accursed" (NASB|ESV).

I leave that to you to decide whom the Word of God actually speaks negatively of.

 

[J. Jump]

...the man asked Jesus about "ETERNAL LIFE".

Ken I would encourage you to do some research on the English word eternal. Mabye HoG will post the etymology of the word. It hasn't always been used as people use it today. Then I would encourage you to do some research on the Greek word aionios.

As HoG has pointed out if aionios means forever and ever and ever then it is impossible to have everlasting life by grace through faith plus nothing.

I really appreciate the cordial discussions that we are having. It is really refreshing and what iron sharpening iron is all about!

 

[steaver]

After devoting ten years to this very subject, I have found that OSAS stands or falls on one Christian principle;

(a) Is my eternal salvation secured by Jesus Christ, or (b) is my eternal salvation secured by I. Christ works or my works, there is no both ways!

Answering yes to (a) ends ALL "whatabouts" of wilful sinning, unfaithfulness, unbelief, and anything else.

Answering yes to (b) makes one a co-redeemer with Christ.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Cutter]

Great summation and a point I made in post #48 that none of these guys wanted to address.

 

[steaver]

HP: I do not believe for a minute that those not believing in OSAS serve the Lord just to miss a barbeque,

I personally fellowship with many who do not understand OSAS and who do not believe it is so. They love the Lord, but they cannot accept the fact that other Christians do not live as they live and yet will still be saved. Their motivation for rejecting OSAS gives them freedom to preach to OTHERS (christians) who they judge as lacking, you better straighten up or else!!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

I have found that OSAS stands or falls on one Christian principle;

(a) Is my eternal salvation secured by Jesus Christ, or (b) is my eternal salvation secured by I. Christ works or my works, there is no both ways!

Answering yes to (a) ends ALL "whatabouts" of wilful sinning, unfaithfulness, unbelief, and anything else.

Answering yes to (b) makes one a co-redeemer with Christ.

When the whole unconditional/conditional security is boiled down to its simplest form you are spot on. If we have to add ANYTHING to faith then Christ's works are made imperfect and lacking.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J. ,

The rich man was asked Christ, what he shall do to have eternal life. 1000 years was not in his mind. Because, premillennialism doctrine was not yet introduced to religions till 1900 years later after this. So, no doubt, the rich man understoods 'eternal life' speaks of beyond life after death. Even, many religions understand 'eternal life' is speak of salvation or life after death either. Most religions would not agree with your belief on 1000 years.

Also, your beliefs sound like purgatory. That why I reject heretic teaching. It is unbiblical. I read another topic at Baptist Theology/Bible Study. John of Japan is right, 'eternal life' of John 3:16 never meaning 1000 years. We all have right common sense, it simple speak of salvation, not millennial kingdom. You should be aware that I am amill. Myself ex-premill before. Nowhere in the four gospels that Christ tells his disciples on 1000 years. You should be careful when you read scriptures, you cannot add unto God's Word (Rev. 22:18). You better leave God's Word alone, believe and accept what it saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

deafposttrip I am fully aware of you and your works-based salvation doctrine. It hasn't changed since the last time we conversed :laugh:.

Eternal the way it was used when translated was "a long period of time." And yes while the 1000 years is not directly mentioned in the gospels it is not hard to figure out when comparing Scripture with Scripture that the 1,000-year reign of Christ is in fact the subject at hand. He even tells us as much when He directly says He was preaching the gospel of the "kingdom."

His kingdom is 1,000 years in length. So to say that I or anyone else that believes as I do is adding to Scripture or not paying attention to what the text says is simply not true. However you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Yesterday, a verse popped in my mind. I know this verse is very good one speaks so clear on conditional. I would like to show verse to you.

"And that, knowing the time, that NOW it is high time to awake out of sleep for NOW is our salvation NEARER THAN when we believED." - Romans 13:11

Paul was wrote this verse toward Christians, not lost people. Notice word, 'knowing' is present tense, means that we need to know. It says, "that NOW it is high time to awake out of sleep". This is speak of our walk life in the Spirit, do not walk in the dark filled with flesh. We must be awake up all the time. Notice it says, "for NOW is our 'salvation' nearer than[/color] when we believED." Notice, it says, 'believed' is a past tense, 'believed' is speak of our salvation at the beginning. But, our final salvation is not arrived. It says, "our 'salvation' near", means our final salvation is not arrived till we die(physical) or Lord comes.

OSAS teaching when once a person believed in Christ, person is already saved at once, and is secured, already automatically saved forever and ever all the way to death or Lord comes, no matter how often sinned or fall, always stay saved all the way to the end at death or Lord's coming.

But, not what the Bible teaching. Romans 13:11 telling us, we must be wake up all the times, because our 'salvation' is draw nearer than at our first salvation(beginning). 'Salvation' is speak of our future redemption(Eph. 4:30; and Luke 21:28)- final salvation - eternal life.

Right now, we are in spiritual warfare, we not yet received eternal life, we are on the narrow road right now, we are not yet arrived at the door at the end of the narrow road. We must walk go through on the same narrow road throughout our life till our death, then we shall be saved. Or, if we turn away, and back to world again, we became "sleep" remain in sins, by the time, we die or Lord comes, then we shall NOT received the final salvation. What's happen, go into destrcution! - Matt. 7:13.

Walk toward the 'DOOR'(Matt. 7:14) is not easy. Our spiritual warfare is hardship. We must endure all the way to the end, then we shall overcome them and have eternal life.

Romans 13:11 is very clear prove of conditional salvation.

Later, I will post another more scriptures on conditional salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J.,

Nowhere in Bible saying, the "kingdom" shall be last for 1000 years. If you know a verse in the Bible saying that the kingdom is 1000 years, please prove it to me.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

An excerpt from the
Security Salvation v. insecurity salvation Lingo
Dictionary:

The Scripture 'Blah Blah' very clearly
teaches 'Yada Yada'

MEANS:

Iffin' yo' don't believe it like I do - you're a sinna'

 

[Ed Edwards]

An excerpt from the
Security Salvation v. Insecurity Salvation Lingo
Dictionary:

said in this topic:

If you know a verse in the Bible saying
that the kingdom is 1000 years, please prove it to me.

MEANS:

Ain't no way nobody can get no blind
human bean to see.

 

[steaver]

The Scripture 'Blah Blah' very clearly
teaches 'Yada Yada'

MEANS:

Iffin' yo' don't believe it like I do - you're a sinna'

Good one Ed! :applause:

 

[steaver]

(Ken)..........that just floored me, because eternal security crumbled just like that. I went back over and turned off my video game and started looking at other Scriptures looking for more truth. Suddenly all these eternal security supporting passages no longer supported eternal security.

Yes, the Bible is filled with conditions, and I thank God for showing me that truth. As an eternal security believer I smoked cigarettes, did drugs, got drunk, committed adultery, told lies. And it was so easy to do, because hey OSAS right? We're only human right? God knows we will sin right? HA! I look back and do this :BangHead: because how could I have been so easily blinded?

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

(Ken)....I was a deacon in the Baptist church.

I am curious, Are you saying that while you were a deacon you was doing drugs, getting drunk, telling lies and committing adultery? Or are you speaking of two seperate times in your life?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(Ken).....Let me ask you a question...

If a person who "CAN" be baptized refuses to be baptized is he saved or not saved? If you say he is saved, then you are saying that a person can willfully disobey Jesus' commandments, and still be saved. If you say he is not saved, then you would be saying he needs to be baptized to be saved.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

If he is saved then he has accepted the baptism of the Holy Ghost being sealed forever as a child of God. If he refuses to be baptized by water as a public profession of his faith in Christ it will not nullify his salvation in Christ.

(Ken).....then you are saying that a person can willfully disobey Jesus' commandments, and still be saved.

By grace ye have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Judging other Christian's salvation by their transgressions is not wise and should be left to God. However we should approach any brother or sister in Christ that we observe wilfully sinning with the word of God and with love that they may repent and be spared being pierced through with many sorrows , and that the name of Christ will not be blasphemed among the non-believers.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Ask him how many lies it takes to make a person a liar, and then quote Revelation 21:8 to him, and watch him dance around it.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

Do you sin Ken?

 

[Iamodd4God]

I am curious, Are you saying that while you were a deacon you was doing drugs, getting drunk, telling lies and committing adultery? Or are you speaking of two seperate times in your life?

God Bless! :thumbs:

Let me clarify myself. After I was "saved" I did drugs, and would get drunk, physically commit adultery, smoke cigarettes, and tell lies. As a deacon, I no longer did drugs or got drunk, but I did continue to smoke cigarettes, tell lies, and commit adultery; though not physically, but mentally is still adultery...

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Today I do none of those things.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[steaver]

Let me clarify myself. After I was "saved" I did drugs, and would get drunk, physically commit adultery, smoke cigarettes, and tell lies. As a deacon, I no longer did drugs or got drunk, but I did continue to smoke cigarettes, tell lies, and commit adultery; though not physically, but mentally is still adultery...

At what point did you reject OSAS? Before or after you was a deacon?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

ETERNAL SECURITY

If the eternal security doctrine is true, and a person who is converted cannot become condemned then why did the apostle Paul through the inspiration of God say that a bishop is not to be a new convert, because he may become prideful, and fall under the same condemnation as the devil? Don’t take my word for it, read it for yourself...

1Timothy 3:1-6 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop must then be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

...again, the eternal security doctrine teaches that once a person is converted, he/she cannot become condemned again. Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.

Ken

This is a great point from 1 Tim 3:1-6. It fits perfectly with the list of OSAS debunking texts listed on this thread -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1041638&postcount=2

Certainly it is clear to unbiased objective reader that Lucifer was once IN fellowship with God - sinless and in harmony with heaven. Just as the elder would be in the case above - but THEN after being fully accepted by God and at peace with God - Lucifer fell under condemnation due to his sin.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Another issue surrounding OSAS is the way it destroys any meaningful notion of repentance. OSAS proponents are quick to tell us that all believers still sin, and that it does not matter what one does it has already been forgiven on the cross, i.e. past, present and future sins. This renders repentance impotent in meaning, for if we can continue to sin without incurring the penalty, repentance is diminished to a mere recognition of ones failures, not a turning from them that it really means. Scripture tells us that ‘unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish,” Where is the honest repentance if in fact we all continue to do the same old things? Does repentance only cover a OSAS list of certain sins that are repented of while we retain other sins without repentance?

One is very naïve if one honestly believes OSAS does not coddle and excuse sin. I have personally witnessed it done over and over in my lifetime. Testimony after testimony, sermon after sermon the import of a holy life free from sin is diminished to mere pie in the sky impossible to achieve. Sermon after sermon by the leading preachers of our day, within the Calvinistic circles, loudly proclaim that our actions have absolutely nothing to do with our standing before God. So much for lip service to repentance or restitution.

I am certain that in spite of the teachings of OSAS that clearly diminish the need and importance of true repentance, many do, in their love for God, find that place of repentance. To God be the glory.