Eternal Security

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Php 2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

HP: A quick word search on the word salvation reveals some interesting texts. The first one speaks of “the hope of salvation.” This verse was not addressing the lost as if they should be hoping for salvation, but rather speaks of the writer himself and those “who are of the day.” Thoughts?

In the second passage, we are admonished to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” It is a rare commodity to see such fear and trembling in the process of salvation. What can the author be saying? Do not the proponents of OSAS also preach that salvation is achieved by mere acceptance and that by faith? Were does this ‘work’ on our part come into play? Has anyone ever heard a sermon by a proponent of OSAS take this verse for a text, or even mention it? If so, tell us about the approach taken.

 

[DQuixote]

No, Ken. You bring nothing new to the discussion. Nothing you advance hasn't been advanced before. This is soooooooooooooo sad. We might as well be slashing each others throats in a dark alley. We forget that all the wounding and bleeding took place at the Cross.

postdeaftrib, for every 1,000 scriptures you can post disproving OSAS, I can post 2,000 that prove it. And I'll use your 1,000 to do it. It is this horrendous misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and the disinformation that follows that cripples our witness to the world today. How many times have I heard the doubter ask, "So which church is right?" That's the core of these debates. "So which debate is right?" Those of us who name the Name of God, who look to His Son for our eternal promise, should be ashamed of ourselves. :tear:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DQ: "So which church is right?" That's the core of these debates.

HP: This is not about which church is right, this is about truth and what do the Scriptures say about the issues.

 

[BobRyan]

No, Ken. You bring nothing new to the discussion. Nothing you advance hasn't been advanced before. This is soooooooooooooo sad. We might as well be slashing each others throats in a dark alley. We forget that all the wounding and bleeding took place at the Cross.

postdeaftrib, for every 1,000 scriptures you can post disproving OSAS, I can post 2,000 that prove it. And I'll use your 1,000 to do it. It is this horrendous misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and the disinformation that follows that cripples our witness to the world today. How many times have I heard the doubter ask, "So which church is right?" That's the core of these debates. "So which debate is right?" Those of us who name the Name of God, who look to His Son for our eternal promise, should be ashamed of ourselves. :tear:

Hold the phone!!

Must we all be "ashamed" if it turns out we do not agree on every single point of doctrine!!???

Must we all be "ashamed" if we are willing to explore and study scripture on points where we differ??

I think such things are an honor and blessing to the church.

So where then is the "shame"???

I think it is in "pretending" that the Bible actually says it "both ways" and can prove any point of view. It in clinging to eisegesis and trashing exegesis - clinging to man made tradition and dumping the word of God.

Notice that in Mark 7 Christ accuses the Religious leaders of the "One True church" in His day of doing that VERY thing! Yet not a single one of them would claim about themselves "I am denying scripture and clinging to man made tradition no matter what God's word says to the contrary".


It is not the fact that we differ or even the fact that we find some texts to be "inconvenient" (as the believers in OSAS find with the lists of texts given on AAA's thread).

The shame is in NOT being willing to approach differences with an open, objective and unbiased mind. The shame is in dumping scripture and clinging to man-made traditions.

The shame is in stooping to ad hominem or "dirty tricks" to silence the voice of those who oppose.

To the extent that we AVOID those low brow tactics we can actually BENEFIT from such discussions EVEN in cases where we differ in our POV.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

An excerpt from the
Security Salvation v. insecurity salvation Lingo
Dictionary:

The Scripture 'Blah Blah' very clearly
teaches 'Yada Yada'

MEANS:

Iffin' yo' don't believe it like I do - you're a sinna'

The solution for that sickness is "supposed to be" exegesis NOT eisegesis piled ontop of ad hominem plus more eisegesis.

But let's be honest - that is a hard quality to find.

Many a debate reduces itself to "you can't make me... you can't make me no matter what scripture appears to debunk my views". Basically they begin to "imagine victory" is achieved if only they "don't budge from their position no matter what the evidence to the contrary"

And when that happens I enjoy reminding the poster that they are not the only ones reading the thread. That in fact there ARE a number of less-biased and more-objective readers that stand back and see the issue much more clearly than some would like to believe.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When I was saved I became a member of the family of God because of the new birth. When I was born I became a member of my family. All of my days I have been a member of my family. I have the family name and I always will, because as I said, I was born into the family. Being born into the family of God makes me a member of his body, his flesh, and his bones as stated in Ephesians 5:30. I have been made one with Christ.

All true.

But you don't "have to be UNBORN to die".

Adam did not have to be "UNCREATED" to fall into condemnation and be "really " lost.

Gal 5 talks of those who have "fallen from Grace" and "been SEVERED from Christ".

There is no such argument in scripture as "once joined to Christ you can not be severed from Christ... once being saved in the Gospel and under Grace you can not fall from Grace".

All those made-up doctrines come from man-made tradition not scripture.

What this thread is "really about" is the seriousness with which Christians SHOULD be taking texts like 1Tim 3:1-6 that DO warn of the saved saints "falling into the condemnation of the devil" rather than simply ignoring such texts -- worship service after worship service.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I love the little smileys :type:

Anyway, yes I was a slave to the eternal security doctrine myself being raised in the Baptist faith. I know EXACTLYhow they are seeing the Scriptures, but it isn't the Scripture they are accepting, it is the interpretation of man they are accepting. The ol' "this is what the Bible says, but this is what it means" sort of thing.

I was released from the eternal security lie by the Holy Ghost Himself, and I mean that literally. Nobody said "Hey eternal security is false look at this passage of Scripture." I was playing my Playstation and all of a sudden the word "salvation" came to mind, and the book of James. So I figured when I would do my daily Bible reading/study I would look up in James anything regarding salvation. But the thought got stronger and kept getting stronger until I couldn't concentrate on the game.

So I go to the dining room table, (not sitting) and I open my Bible, and flip through to James. Once I came to James I started reading the first thing I seen, which was...

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

...that just floored me, because eternal security crumbled just like that. I went back over and turned off my video game and started looking at other Scriptures looking for more truth. Suddenly all these eternal security supporting passages no longer supported eternal security.

Yes, the Bible is filled with conditions, and I thank God for showing me that truth. As an eternal security believer I smoked cigarettes, did drugs, got drunk, committed adultery, told lies. And it was so easy to do, because hey OSAS right? We're only human right? God knows we will sin right? HA! I look back and do this :BangHead: because how could I have been so easily blinded?

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

Praise God! Welcome to the light of scripture and the freedom to accept the Bible warnings that encourage the saints to persevere!

However - I will add this one thing -- there is another "kind" of OSAS -- one that embraces "perseverance of the saints" and "retro-deletes" the assurance of salvation for anyone that does not persevere.

In "that kind" of OSAS you can not know if you are really saved TODAY UNTIL you see that you persevered ten years from today. In that few FUTURE backsliding negates PRESENT salvation. (you mentioned it in your OP and it is the kind of OSAS that 3 and 5 point Calvinists believe in as well as the Arminian OSAS believers who also embrace perseverance of the saints)

The model you describe above for OSAS is what a 4 point Calvinst would embrace and it is what some Arminians embrace no matter who it contradicts the Arminian position.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: and it is the kind of OSAS that 3 and 5 point Calvinists believe in as well as the Arminian OSAS believers who also embrace perseverance of the saints

HP: What does perseverance of the saints have to do with OSAS? I see no connection at all.

 

[Darron Steele]

Praise God! Welcome to the light of scripture and the freedom to accept the Bible warnings that encourage the saints to persevere! ...

I have a different motivation to keep me serving the Lord than fear.

One is Romans 12:1, which has “Therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s |mercies, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (TNIV|ESV).

At John 8:31b Jesus says “If you continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of Mine” (NASB).

I owe a life of service to the Lord in thanksgiving for His mercy. I am no disciple of Jesus Christ if I would ever turn away from following Him.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Darron,

Romans 12:1- why do we need urge? This is a command from God, that we must yield our life to Christ, and to follow Christ. If we do not yield up and follow Christ, then, we cannot be his disciples.

John 8:31 tells us, if we do not keep His commandements, then, we cannot be His disciples.

That mean, if we do not obey His commandments, then, we cannot enter eternal life - Revelation 22:14.

These are clear conditionals, we must take heed them and obey them, so, we can have eternal life with Christ.

Entering into eternal life is not easy, we have to face hardship while we are on narrow road, we must fight with our faith and hold our hope all the way to the end, otherwise we are castway. - 1 Tim. 6:12.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Cutter]

Again, let me point out what the Apostle Paul said about his salvation.

2 Timothy 1:12 I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Why did he say this, because he committed the security of his salvation into the Hands of the Lord. Realizing his own weakness, he said,

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If any on this board is so bold to say they live a sinless life, you are a liar.

Thank God Christ is seated at the Right Hand of the Father fulfilling His High Priest Role. What was the role of the High Priest? To offer sacrifice on behalf of sin and to intercede on our behalf.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
:26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Seems we need more Bible preachin', blood bought, born again, on fire for God men in the pulpit.

One important element that has been left out of this discussion is discipline.
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Ken to live like the devil, call yourself a Christian and get away with it is in direct contradiction with the preceding verses.

God saves us and keeps us by chastening us because He loves us.
Praise Him!

 

[J. Jump]

"And that, knowing the time, that NOW it is high time to awake out of sleep for NOW is our salvation NEARER THAN when we believED." - Romans 13:11

Paul was wrote this verse toward Christians, not lost people.

AMEN! Wonder why Paul was telling saved people that there was a salvation they were close to?

As for your other question that has been answered over and over and over and over again. You didn't believe it any of those times, so I don't think this time is going to be a charmer do you?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Cutter,

2 Tim. 1:12 - Paul tells us, that he dedicated his life for salvation, as Christ is able to keep him till second coming. That means, if a person is seriously committed to Christ, then Christ will abide in person long as person is continued dedicate to him all the way to the end.

Of course, you are right that Romans chapter 7 tells us, we are weakeness, because we have flesh and old nature in our body. Flesh and old nature cannot removed from our body till we die or Lord comes. Bible commands us, that we must walk in Spirit daily, do not walk in flesh. If we walk after flesh, we would reaping conculsion at the judgment go to everlasting fire - Galatians 6:7-8

Notice Romans 8:1 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus(why? because) who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but AFTER the Spirit."

Romans 8:1 is clear speak of conditional by base upon our action, Bible commands us that we ought to walk in the Spirit, not after flesh. If we walk in flesh, we would received punishment from Christ, go to lake of fire.

Gal. 5:19-21 warn us, if anyone do evil things in their flesh, shall not enter the kingdom of God(eternal life). So, therefore, we must walk in spirit with fruits(Gal. 5:22-23), so, we shall not receive punishment from God.

Romans 6:12-16 "Let NOT sin therefore reign(control) in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your mebers as instrumments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your mebers as instrumments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion(rule or control) over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God FORBID. Know ye not, that to whom ye yeild yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

This passage tells us, should we continue sinning while under the grace? God FORBID! It commands us, not allow flesh rule over our body to continue sinning daily anymore. We must walk in the Spirit daily, because God put righteousness in us through Jesus Christ, so, therefore, we ought to walk in the spirit, not after flesh. If we continue walk in flesh, then we shall reaping to death(second death in lake of fire)- Romans 6:23a.

Do not deceived, we must listen God's Word, and to take heed them, obey His word, and follow Christ. If we don't, then we shall not have eternal life at death or Lord comes.

True, the blood of Christ forgived all our sins, understand our past sins are already forgived at our prior salvation, now we are responsible to confess our sins to Christ, so, he is faithful to forgive and cleane all our sins all the times - 1 John 1:9. If we willfuly continue sinning after we received salvation, then Christ would not forgive our present and future - Heb. 10:26-27. If suppose we remain in dark and do practice sinning life without confess our sins to Christ, by the time we die(physical), or Lord comes, then we will reap punishment, go to lake of fire.

Do be deceived please - Gal. 6:7-8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J.,

Do you actual understand what Romans 13:11 is talking about?

What 'salvation' of verse 11 speaks of?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[steaver]

The solution for that sickness is "supposed to be" exegesis NOT eisegesis piled ontop of ad hominem plus more eisegesis.

But let's be honest - that is a hard quality to find.

Many a debate reduces itself to "you can't make me... you can't make me no matter what scripture appears to debunk my views". Basically they begin to "imagine victory" is achieved if only they "don't budge from their position no matter what the evidence to the contrary"

And when that happens I enjoy reminding the poster that they are not the only ones reading the thread. That in fact there ARE a number of less-biased and more-objective readers that stand back and see the issue much more clearly than some would like to believe.

in Christ,

Bob

Amen Bob! So why don't you repent of this if you see it so clearly? :wavey:

 

[steaver]

(Bob)....All true.

But you don't "have to be UNBORN to die".

Adam did not have to be "UNCREATED" to fall into condemnation and be "really " lost.

Always mixing apples and oranges. Adam was not "born again". Born again is a "new thing" with "new" attributes given for the age of grace and the bride of Christ. Adam is not part of the bride.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

HP: What does perseverance of the saints have to do with OSAS? I see no connection at all.

It makes a huge difference.

In the 4 point Calvinist modle - you are saved (OSAS) even if you don't persevere -- no matter what atrocites you go into with no repentance at all -- you are "saved anyway". No matter what the bible says to the contrary you are "saved anyway".

But in the 3 and 5 point Calvinist view THAT kind of OSAS is one we ALL agree with. They argue that those who DO persevere FIRM until the end -- never waivering - fathful to the end -- THEY are the ones that are OSAS "saved". And of course we can ALL agree with them on that point -- even the 4 pointers and all forms of Arminians would agree that THAT group is saved - once and for all!

But we would not deny salvation "at some temporary point" for all others.

That kind of OSAS is disctinctive NOT in who in identifiying those who are ultimately saved but rather in the ones it claims "were never saved at all".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Again, let me point out what the Apostle Paul said about his salvation.

2 Timothy 1:12 I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Why did he say this, because he committed the security of his salvation into the Hands of the Lord.

True enough - but Paul did NOT bend this point to the extreme of saying "so that means I can not fail to persevere - can not possibly fail by turning from Christ" as many who believe in OSAS 'anyway' profess to believe.

Rather Paul states CLEARLY

"I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified" 1Cor 9 - being disqualified from the Gospel EVEN though he is a PREACHER of the Gospel was his REAL concern.


]Phil 3
7 But [b]whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss[/b] for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things[/b], and count them but rubbish]so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 [b]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings[/b], being conformed to His death;
11 [b]in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have [b]already obtained[/b] it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of[/b] by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, [b]I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet[/b]; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I [b]press on toward the goal for the prizeof the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Cutter
God saves us and keeps us by chastening us because He loves us.
Praise Him!

Not only by "Chastening" but ALSO by giving us the WARNINGS of scripture!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Always mixing apples and oranges. Adam was not "born again"

You have unwittingly highlighted the failure of your own argumen by admitting that he NEEDEd to be "born again" without first being "unborn" or "uncreated".

Here you admit that you only "start using that rule" once they are "born-again". But the rule you invent does not exist in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iamodd4God]

Do you sin Ken?

In Matthew 19:16-17 a rich man asks Jesus: "What good thing must I do to have eternal life?" Jesus replies: "If you will enter into life, obey the commandments." Revelation 22:14 tells us that blessed is the man that obeys the commandments, that he may have the right to the tree of life, which supports what Jesus told the rich man.

Jesus told two people to "sin no more" (John 5:14; 8:11), which is really the same as saying obey the commandments, because sin is the violation of the law (commandments) as stated in 1John 3:4. In fact we are told in Ecclesiastes that the duty of man is to obey the commandments (Ecclesiastes 12:13). So it is clearly a requirement of God that we obey His commandments.

Okay, now comes the troubled water...

People believe that there are two ways a person can sin; willingly vs unwillingly or occasional vs habitual. My understanding is that sin is sin period. Regardless if you commit sin willingly or unwillingly it doesn't change what sin is or the consequences of sin. So when Jesus said to sin no more, I don't believe that He only meant "Sin willingly no more".

If I say I don't sin (sin no more) I know people will quote 1John 1:8 telling me that if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. Here is the problem; 1John 1:8 contradicts 1John 3:6, and Revelation 22:14.

1John 3:6 tells us that anyone who lives in Christ "DOES NOT SIN" and anyone who does sin "NEVER" seen Him or known Him. How is it that one can be in Christ and not sin, yet if he/she claims that she does not sin he/she would be deceiving themselves according to 1John 1:8? How can one say I sin, and I know Jesus, when the Bible tells us that anyone who sins never known Him?

So 1John 1:8 doesn't really contradict 1John 3:4 it is simply a statement that cannot be applied to those who are living in Christ, which means it is applied to those who are living outside of Christ, which when read in context is who the apostle John is addressing this to...

1John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

...If these were believers they would already have been in fellowship with them.

Revelation 22:14 tells us that blessed is the man who "OBEYS" the commandments, that he may have the right to the tree of life. How can a person do both; obey the commandments and sin? "IMPOSSIBLE" passages of Scripture such as Matthew 7:18; James 3:11 comes to mind. You cannot be a good tree (Christian) and bring forth evil fruit (sin). You cannot be a fountain containing both sweet and bitter water.

For those of you who have bought the habitual sin lie. Ask yourself; to need saved from the consequence of your sins you committed did you have to become an habitual sinner or did you need saved immediately upon committing your very first sin? If all it took is one single sin to cause you to be guilty of sin, then what sense does it make when people say that 1John 3:6 is talking about habitual sin? Think about it, and let it sink in. This is how they have made 1John 3:6 sound...

Whosoever lives in him, does not "PRACTICE" sin...

Whosoever lives in him does not "HABITUALLY" sin...

...can you NOT see the satanic twist? Why on earth would God condemn one single act of sin, and then overlook one single act of sin? God has a "NO SIN" policy that began in the garden of Eden. Adam and Eve did not have to eat the WHOLE tree to be disobedient, they didn't even have to eat an entire fruit from the forbidden tree, all they had to do was take a single bite and that was enough to be disobedient and face God's judgment.

Is it a wonder why Jesus said only a few will find the narrow way to life? People are buying into the devil's lies and stay on the broad way to hell. Many people "THINK" they are on the narrow way, but in the end they will hear Jesus say "I NEVER KNEW YOU!" and He will say "DEPART FROM ME YE EVILDOERS". Stop doing evil PERIOD!

Do I sin? Absolutely NOT! I obey God's commandments as it is our duty, and only those who do the will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21-23; Revelation 22:14).

For those who say that I am teaching salvation by works; no I am not; Salvation, and living for God are two different issues...

Salvation is having the condemnation (Romans 6:23) of your "PAST" sins (Romans 3:25) removed. We call this forgiveness (Ephesians 1:7). Salvation "CANNOT" be earned (Ephesians 2:8).

Living for God is what you do "AFTER" you become saved, which is to be a life of obedience (Romans 6:16; 1Peter 1:14).

In the name of Jesus,

Ken