Eternal Security

[Iamodd4God]

One important element that has been left out of this discussion is discipline.
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Ken to live like the devil, call yourself a Christian and get away with it is in direct contradiction with the preceding verses.

God saves us and keeps us by chastening us because He loves us.
Praise Him!

That's my point; a person who calls himself/herself a Christian, yet lives in opposition to God's Word "IS NOT" a Christian. While I was doing drugs, and getting drunk, telling lies, and committing adultery etc. all while "CLAIMING" to be a Christian only proved that I wasn't a Christian. "BY THEIR FRUIT, YOU WILL KNOW THEM."

I seen the truth, my eyes have been opened. I "REPENTED" I stopped sinning. I've asked God to forgive me for my sins, accepting the blood shed by His Son Jesus, who died on "MY" behalf.

I can choose to go back to my sins. If I do, that doesn't mean I was never saved to begin with; it means I have willingly chosen to return to sin leaving the body of Jesus. If I die while I am in my sin, I "WILL" go to hell. God forgiving my sins placed me on the narrow road, but my choosing to sin placed me back on the wide road. Eternal security doesn't teach that, it teaches that by choosing to go back to my sin I am still on the narrow road, I will just lose treasures. Again, that depends on the sin committed and the eternal security proponents; if the sin is adultery one will say "was never saved to begin with" while another will say still saved.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Cutter]

Do I sin? Absolutely NOT!
In the name of Jesus,

Ken

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You say these verses contradict other scripture. Apparently you do not believe in the infallible, inerrant, inspired Word of God.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

We go in and out of pasture in our spiritual walk. We are not always in the Spirit. When we are not in the Spirit we are, as I pointed out earlier and as Paul so eloquently stated, in the flesh. And the flesh is weak. There are times I'm closer to the Lord, abiding with Him, and in perfect harmony, thus not sinning. Jesus addresses just such a situation before His crucifixion when He told Peter, James, and John, "Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak."

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot * sin, because he is born of God.

That which is born of Spirit, is spirit, and that which is born of the flesh, is flesh.
The spirit that is born of the Spirit of the Lord is unable to sin because it is where the seed remains and first germinated. The spirit was born of God.
The flesh remained the same. My enemy and the enemy of the Spirit of God.
That's why Paul said, "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." He realized the fact that although he was born again, he was still in the flesh, and being so, he was subject, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." This humbled him and moved him to admit his shortcomings and be more dependent upon Christ. The standard is taught throughout scripture to live perfect because it is God's standard, but that doesn't null the fact that, "there is none good, no not one."
"Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence."
Ken by stating, "Do I sin? Absolutely not! You have gloried in your own power, your own strength, and in the flesh, which I believe you still abide in.

If I die while I am in my sin, I "WILL" go to hell.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Your works became worthless, yet God will not forget His work He did in you. That time when you trusted Him as Lord and Saviour and received Him into your heart and soul. There have been many Christians who had alot of potential to do many mighty works in the Name of the Lord and did not achieve them. Because of God, no because of their own slothfulness. Notice the unsaved said, Lord, Lord we have done many mighty works in Thy Name. Because they deceived themselves.
But a born again Christian knows to confess they have always not measured up and only because of God's grace we shall enter in. In case anyone has forgotten, not only is discipline taught and plays a part in the equation, humility is taught throughout scripture and plays a part in this discussion, as well.
What did Christ teach?
Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Remember the righteous in Matthew 25 did not even want to glory in their works.
Notice what is highlighted.
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink ?
:38 * When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in ? or naked, and clothed thee?
:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

A Christian doesn't consider himself worthy, keep account of his deeds, nor glory in them, but God knows.

 

[carpro]

If I die while I am in my sin, I "WILL" go to hell.
Ken

Better pray you don't have an impure thought just before you die.:tear:

I am also mindful of those brave Christians who serve in our armed forces that may take God's name in vain just before they take a bullet in the brain or are blown apart by a bomb and their last conscious thought was a lustful thought about their girlfriend back home.

You have just consigned them to hell and you stand an excellent chance of joining them there.

 

[Amy.G]

This thread is just another reminder that we are in the last days. I can't believe all the false teachings that are circulating this board. It's very sad and disturbing, yet I know that our Lord will come soon and take us home, and that is something to take joy in.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I understand what Ken means. Ken knows he would make one mistake maybe today or tomorrow, impossible for him to be holy and sinless life without commit sin. Ken would make one mistake today, or this week, he have to be immediately confess sin to Christ long as Christ is faitfhful to forgive his sins all the time. What Ken must do is walk in the spirit, to keep live holy, because he is holy(1 Peter 1:15-16). Clearly Bible commands us, we ough be holy life, because God is holy, do not be practically sin daily, that what the Bible saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[steaver]

I understand what Ken means.

What Ken "means" is what Ken says! Ken believes he is capeable of walking with perfection (sinlessness) just as Jesus did. Ken no longer needs Jesus' grace for Ken relys upon Ken's sinlessness to get himself into heaven. Ken only needed Jesus' sacrafice for his past sins, Ken no longer needs Jesus' imputed righteousness for Ken is able to enter heaven with his own sinless perfection and perfect obedience.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Eric B]

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) eternal security says this is not the case for the saved.

With all the tossing around of this verse earlier; what about the REST of it? That would shed light on the issue: "...but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord".
THAT is what applies to "the saved".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eric: With all the tossing around of this verse earlier; what about the REST of it? That would shed light on the issue: "...but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord".
THAT is what applies to "the saved".

HP: What gives one the right to tell us who the object of this verse is? Where is the ‘object’ stated or implied? The verse simply is explaining two ideas, the wages of sin and the gift of God. No where does it state or imply that the wages of sin do not apply to one that has accepted salvation by faith, yet turned from it in selfishness, refusing to repent.

 

[BobRyan]

That's my point; a person who calls himself/herself a Christian, yet lives in opposition to God's Word "IS NOT" a Christian. While I was doing drugs, and getting drunk, telling lies, and committing adultery etc. all while "CLAIMING" to be a Christian only proved that I wasn't a Christian. "BY THEIR FRUIT, YOU WILL KNOW THEM."

That is Christ's point in Matt 7 - the good tree produced good fruit.

It is John's point in 1John 2 - those who do not walk as Christ walked and yet claim to know Christ - are mistaken according to John.

But what of those in the Matt 18 case where they WERE frogiven but then later refused to forgive others and so had their "forgivenes revoked"? That is yet another way that OSAS fails.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iamodd4God]

What Ken "means" is what Ken says! Ken believes he is capeable of walking with perfection (sinlessness) just as Jesus did. Ken no longer needs Jesus' grace for Ken relys upon Ken's sinlessness to get himself into heaven. Ken only needed Jesus' sacrafice for his past sins, Ken no longer needs Jesus' imputed righteousness for Ken is able to enter heaven with his own sinless perfection and perfect obedience.

God Bless! :thumbs:

1Johnn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Do you think 1John 2:6 is a metaphor? If it is impossible to live a sinless life as Jesus did, then why is this in the Bible?

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

How about this?

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Doesn't the words sin no more mean exactly just that? "SIN NO MORE"

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

What part do you not understand?

1John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Isn't committing sin doing not righteousness?

1John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Just exactly how many times do you need to read Scripture that says "OBEY" the commandments?

How many lies does it take to make a person a liar? Just one. Does it matter if it is a white lie or a "big" lie?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, AND ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Do you need help in understanding the importance of "OBEYING" God's commandments?

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

What part of Jesus' words do you not comprehend?

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

If you say you have no sin you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you, yet if you sin you are of the devil. What I said is the Bible "DOES NOT" contradict itself. People takes 1John 1:8 out of context. Put it in context and John is addressing "SINNERS" not "CHRISTIANS".

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

When you sin isn't the will of the devil that you do? Doesn't that make him your father and not God? Or is Jesus lying?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Do you not know what being born again is?

Galatians 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Sin is sowing to the flesh is it not? Should I cut this out from my Bible, and cling on to the "impossible" to not sin man doctrine?

You quoted Paul's speech in Romans 7. Do you not realize that Romans 8 follows after Romans 7?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In Romans 7 the apostle Paul talks about his walk after the flesh. In Romans 8 he speaks of life after death so to speak. First notice what the apostle Paul says...

There is no condemnation to them which are "IN" Jesus Christ.

Reminder: 1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:

who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Reminder: 1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If anyone cannot see the truth in these passages, then they are truly blind. Which would be no surprise as Jesus said...

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Stop accepting man's interpretation of what the Bible says, and accept what the Scriptures alone says.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

That is Christ's point in Matt 7 - the good tree produced good fruit.

It is John's point in 1John 2 - those who do not walk as Christ walked and yet claim to know Christ - are mistaken according to John.

But what of those in the Matt 18 case where they WERE frogiven but then later refused to forgive others and so had their "forgivenes revoked"? That is yet another way that OSAS fails.

in Christ,

Bob

Absolutely... and what about those in John 6:66? People say they weren't saved, but the Bible does call them disciples. Let's also not forget Judas. And people seem to overlook Romans 11:20-22.

Romans 11:20-22 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

"Oh but God doesn't do thaaaaat. Once saved always saved."

They fail to see the conditions in the promises. So let's highlight it so there is no confusion...

IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS OTHERWISE THOU SHALT ALSO BE CUT OFF.

The blue is the condition applied to the promise, the red is the result if the condition is not met. What part do you people not get?

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

HP: What gives one the right to tell us who the object of this verse is? Where is the ‘object’ stated or implied? The verse simply is explaining two ideas, the wages of sin and the gift of God. No where does it state or imply that the wages of sin do not apply to one that has accepted salvation by faith, yet turned from it in selfishness, refusing to repent.

Yes HP! See how the eternal security lie is no different than what the devil told Eve in the garden?

God told Adam: "Don't eat of the forbidden tree or you will die."

The serpent told Eve: "Ye shall not surely die."

The Bible says: The wages of sin is death

The eternal security doctrine says: "Ye shall not surely die."

2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The eternal security doctrine is not a sound doctrine; It is a fable. Those who follow this false doctrine wants to see past the wages of death and only see the gift of God. They want to look past the conditions and only see the promises. PRAISE GOD He opened my eyes to the truth. Praise Jesus for His atoning blood that cleanses all sin, and gives us the power to overcome sin.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

'Eternal security' ... If God could not give eternal security, you think eternal insecurity could?

'Perseverance of the saints' is not the security of their eternal security : it is God. Much less than their own perseverence could the 'warnings' of insecurity of the free-willers supply guarantee and peace.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Yes HP! See how the eternal security lie is no different than what the devil told Eve in the garden?

God told Adam: "Don't eat of the forbidden tree or you will die."

The serpent told Eve: "Ye shall not surely die."

The Bible says: The wages of sin is death

The eternal security doctrine says: "Ye shall not surely die."

2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The eternal security doctrine is not a sound doctrine; It is a fable. Those who follow this false doctrine wants to see past the wages of death and only see the gift of God. They want to look past the conditions and only see the promises. PRAISE GOD He opened my eyes to the truth. Praise Jesus for His atoning blood that cleanses all sin, and gives us the power to overcome sin.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

GE:

You suppose fallen man as unfallen Adam. Redemption is for fallen sinners - for lost, saved! And then whereas before they were eternally lost, they now in Jesus Christ are eternally saved and safe!

 

[EdSutton]

"BY THEIR FRUIT, YOU WILL KNOW THEM."

I seen the truth, my eyes have been opened.

Nice eisegesis!

Aside from misquoting the portion of the verse from the KJV (and I did not find that wording in any of the 22 other versions I checked either, FTR, the closest being the NKJV, did you ever hear the word "context"??), while you "seen the truth" and your "eyes have been opened" ? And did you happen to notice that this phraseology occurs exactly two times in Scripture, in Matt. 7 and refers to false prophets?? It never refers to one's personal life or to some supposed sins, in a Christian.

Because I like being helpful, I'll quote the verses for you, and embolden some of it, to save a bit of eyestrain.

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Matt. 7:15-20 - NKJV)

Did you notice who is the "they" and "them", here? False prophets! Also, when Jesus uses the word rendered in the English language as "therefore", He is concluding a point, and that point is to beware of these false prophets.

I would hope that all of us would both beware of false prophets, and live godly lives, as well. But reading an idea that is not there in the text, into the Scripture, is not a very good way to "live a godly life", at least IMO.

Ed

 

[Iamodd4God]

Nice eisegesis!

Aside from misquoting the portion of the verse from the KJV (and I did not find that wording in any of the 22 other versions I checked either, FTR, the closest being the NKJV, did you ever hear the word "context"??), while you "seen the truth" and your "eyes have been opened" ? And did you happen to notice that this phraseology occurs exactly two times in Scripture, in Matt. 7 and refers to false prophets?? It never refers to one's personal life or to some supposed sins, in a Christian.

Because I like being helpful, I'll quote the verses for you, and embolden some of it, to save a bit of eyestrain. Did you notice who is the "they" and "them", here? False prophets! Also, when Jesus uses the word rendered in the English language as "therefore", He is concluding a point, and that point is to beware of these false prophets.

I would hope that all of us would both beware of false prophets, and live godly lives, as well. But reading an idea that is not there in the text, into the Scripture, is not a very good way to "live a godly life", at least IMO.

Ed

Ed does that mean you can't apply this truth towards people who profess to be Christians? Does this "ONLY" apply to false teachers? I don't think it does.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

1John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You can tell who is a Christian and who is not by what they "DO". By their fruit you will know them!

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

Better pray you don't have an impure thought just before you die.:tear:

I am also mindful of those brave Christians who serve in our armed forces that may take God's name in vain just before they take a bullet in the brain or are blown apart by a bomb and their last conscious thought was a lustful thought about their girlfriend back home.

You have just consigned them to hell and you stand an excellent chance of joining them there.

First of all, taking God's name in vain in the sense that you have put it is nothing more than cussing, and anyone who cusses only proves that their religion is in vain, and if their religion is in vain how is their salvation?

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Notice what the commandment is...

Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

The commandment says: Thou shalt not "TAKE" the name of the Lord thy God in vain. People twists this to make it say: Thou shalt not "USE" the name of the Lord in vain.


Second, is sexual relations with "girlfriends" okay? Remember Jesus said:

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So if a brave soldier has a lustful thought about his girlfriend just before he dies then he has committed adultery and according to the Bible no adulterer will enter the kingdom of heaven. That isn't going to change no matter how brave the soldier is.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[J. Jump]

Ed does that mean you can't apply this truth towards people who profess to be Christians? Does this "ONLY" apply to false teachers? I don't think it does.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

1John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You can tell who is a Christian and who is not by what they "DO". By their fruit you will know them!

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

Ken this is the same argument that some (probably a majority even) eternal security people use. The only difference is that they say a person who does these "bad" things simply was never saved before, while you say these can be saved people that lose their salvation.

By the way I've been gone a couple of days and never saw whether or not you think a person has to be baptized to be saved?

 

[Eric B]

HP: What gives one the right to tell us who the object of this verse is? Where is the ‘object’ stated or implied? The verse simply is explaining two ideas, the wages of sin and the gift of God. No where does it state or imply that the wages of sin do not apply to one that has accepted salvation by faith, yet turned from it in selfishness, refusing to repent.

It's a general statement, drawing a CONTRAST. The point is, we all have sinned and deserve death. And we STILL do. John said "and if WE say WE have no sin, we deceive ourselves". So that IS still adressing Christians, and not just [unconverted] "sinners". The question is, what gives one the right to turn this into a case by case statement? (each and every sin committed). If that were the case, NOBODY could be saved; and precisely the point is that instead of what we really deserve, God gives us eternal life as a "gift". If it was because of our no longer sinning, then it would no longer be a gift, but rather wages paid for a debt.

Another point; "walking after the flesh" includes thinking one is saved by their own efforts of keeping the commandments. Most of those statements were aimed at unconverted Israel; who trusted in both their works, as well as their physical lineage as proving they were God's people (and hence, "the flesh").

 

[BobRyan]

Absolutely... and what about those in John 6:66? People say they weren't saved, but the Bible does call them disciples. Let's also not forget Judas. And people seem to overlook Romans 11:20-22.

Romans 11:20-22 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

"Oh but God doesn't do thaaaaat. Once saved always saved."

They fail to see the conditions in the promises. So let's highlight it so there is no confusion...

IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS OTHERWISE THOU SHALT ALSO BE CUT OFF.

The blue is the condition applied to the promise, the red is the result if the condition is not met. What part do you people not get?

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

good point -- Romans 11 and Matt 18 are the kinds of texts that most directly refute BOTH kinds of OSAS --

(as is the case with John 15:1-6 and Gal 5) they show people JOINED to Christ being "severed from Christ" and in the case of John 15 -- dying and tossed into the fire once dead.

in Christ,

Bob