Eternal Subordination of the Son. Biblical?

[37818]

Technically speaking the Father-Son relationship did not exist before the incarnation UNLESS the term begotten of the Father implies that relationship in eternity.

From my point of view "Begotten" does not imply subordination but is a descriptive word of a coequal relationship.

That is the Son (Logos) emanates from the "bosom" (innermost being) of the Father. An eternal relationship.
bosom kolpos Liddell Scott:23019 bosom, womb.
"
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (and the Son).

The term translated "only begotten" is based on from the Latin translation of the Greek meaning "uniquely existent," for having the since of an only offspring. The Sonship preexisted the incarnation (Proverbs 30:4).

 

[HankD]

The term translated "only begotten" is based on from the Latin translation of the Greek meaning "uniquely existent," for having the since of an only offspring. The Sonship preexisted the incarnation (Proverbs 30:4).

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
This is a post incarnation prophetic question.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Eternal sonship only from that point of view after the Logos became flesh and was named Jesus.

So yes from that qualified point of view I can agree with His "eternal sonship".

 

[loDebar]

pre sin, pre Satan, before incarnation, was Jesus a son?

 

[HankD]

pre sin, pre Satan, before incarnation, was Jesus a son?

The question is a non sequitur because the Logos had not yet been given His human nature when conceived in the womb of a mortal human being and given His human name at the time of His earthly human birth.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[loDebar]

God , who became a man, was not the offspring of God until he was begotten here.

The physical human known as Jesus, spiritually is GOD

 

[HankD]

God , who became a man, was not the offspring of God until he was begotten here.

The physical human known as Jesus, spiritually is GOD

If you mean that Jesus is God come in the flesh - agreed.

 

[37818]

The question is a non sequitur because the Logos had not yet been given His human nature when conceived in the womb of a mortal human being and given His human name at the time of His earthly human birth.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Again, He was referred to as the Son prior to Him becoming flesh (Proverbs 30:4; Hebrews 1:8; John 1:18 < - Genesis 12:7).

 

[HankD]

Again, He was referred to as the Son prior to Him becoming flesh (Proverbs 30:4; Hebrews 1:8; John 1:18 < - Genesis 12:7).

Again these are - according to your statement - referring to Him "prior to Him becoming flesh" are prophetic having been made - as you say "prior to Him becoming flesh".

 

[37818]

God , who became a man, was not the offspring of God until he was begotten here.

The physical human known as Jesus, spiritually is GOD

Actually He was always the Son, and was begotten of the Father in His resurrection from the dead, Acts 13:33, Psalms 2:7.

 

[loDebar]

Actually He was always the Son, and was begotten of the Father in His resurrection from the dead, Acts 13:33, Psalms 2:7.

He is not a Son of God in Heaven, This suggests being a beginning after the Father. This is wrong.

 

[37818]

Again these are - according to your statement - referring to Him "prior to Him becoming flesh" are prophetic having been made - as you say "prior to Him becoming flesh".

We are in disagreement on the Sonship of Christ.
As I assume you understand I believe in the eternal Sonship of Christ (John 1:18; Hebrews 1:2; John 1:3; Proverbs 30:4; 1 John 4:9).

I understand you believe the Sonship of Christ began with His incarnation. Dr Walter Martin, author of the "Kingdom of the Cults" held such a view. He a the reason I do not hold the view. I weighed the issues and came to the conclusion that the Son of God was always the Son of God. And became the Son of man in the incarnation.

So can we do this: determine where we agree. And compare where we disagree?

In the perspective of Christ becoming both the Son of God and the Son of man in the incarnation.
1) God was the Father prior to the Sonship of the Word.
2) Angels and men were called sons of God prior to the Sonship of the Word.
3) Prophetically the Word was prophesied to be the Son, being the sole creator of all things (John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2).

 

[37818]

He is not a Son of God in Heaven, This suggests being a beginning after the Father. This is wrong.

Explain what you mean.

Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of man and makes mention that He is in Heaven (John 3:13) too. John mentions Him being equal with God, God being His Father (John 5:18). The writer of Hebrews makes mention that He maintains creation (Hebrews 1:3; John 1:9-10).

 

[HankD]

We are in disagreement on the Sonship of Christ.
As I assume you understand I believe in the eternal Sonship of Christ (John 1:18; Hebrews 1:2; John 1:3; Proverbs 30:4; 1 John 4:9).

I understand you believe the Sonship of Christ began with His incarnation. Dr Walter Martin, author of the "Kingdom of the Cults" held such a view. He a the reason I do not hold the view. I weighed the issues and came to the conclusion that the Son of God was always the Son of God. And became the Son of man in the incarnation.

So can we do this: determine where we agree. And compare where we disagree?

In the perspective of Christ becoming both the Son of God and the Son of man in the incarnation.

1) God was the Father prior to the Sonship of the Word. - In a sense of creator (the three persons played a role in creation).

2) Angels and men were called sons of God prior to the Sonship of the Word. Yes.

3) Prophetically the Word was prophesied to be the Son, being the sole creator of all things (John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2).Yes but as the Only Begotten.
The plural name of God is used of creation - Elohim -.

You and I are sons of God, Jesus is THE Son of God.

However I have no problem with calling Jesus the eternal Son of God as this differentiates his created sons from His Only Begotten Son.

 

[percho]

Are those who have the Holy Spirit, that is who have the Spirit of adoption, said to be, begotten of God?

Do Spirit begotten children have a mother, as do flesh born children?

Why is Jerusalem above called the mother of us all? That comes from a chapter that begins with God sending his Son, born of woman.

How is Jesus the only begotten, Son?

 

[37818]

1) God was the Father prior to the Sonship of the Word. - In a sense of creator (the three persons played a role in creation).

2) Angels and men were called sons of God prior to the Sonship of the Word. Yes.

3) Prophetically the Word was prophesied to be the Son, being the sole creator of all things (John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2).Yes but as the Only Begotten.
The plural name of God is used of creation - Elohim -.

You and I are sons of God, Jesus is THE Son of God.

However I have no problem with calling Jesus the eternal Son of God as this differentiates his created sons from His Only Begotten Son.

The Greek μονογενης monogenes meaning, "only," "sole," "unique." The translation "only begotten" is based on the Latin translation "unigenitus."

 

[37818]

Are those who have the Holy Spirit, that is who have the Spirit of adoption, said to be, begotten of God?

Yes. Born of God. Romans 8:16.

The adoption is yet future (Romans 8:23).

Do Spirit begotten children have a mother, as do flesh born children?

No. God regenerates us (2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12).

Why is Jerusalem above called the mother of us all?

Paul is making argument about being free from bondage. The Jerusalem in Heaven is where the saints before us have gone. And the saints collectively our predecessors, witnesses of the gospel are the mother of use all.

That comes from a chapter that begins with God sending his Son, born of woman.

No. Galatians 4:26-31; Galatians 5: . . . .

How is Jesus the only begotten, Son?

He is uniquely God's Son being God equal (John 5:18).

 

[HankD]

The Greek μονογενης monogenes meaning, "only," "sole," "unique." The translation "only begotten" is based on the Latin translation "unigenitus."

I am not sure of your objection if it is indeed an objection.
There was at one time a lengthy debate here at the BB as to the exact meaning of the word in which many lexicons and other sources were cited.

μονογενης
Friberg 03494 The only one of its kind

In what way is he "Only"?

NAS Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

He emanates from the innermost being of the father. That is one way He is different than the other "sons of God".

 

[loDebar]

Explain what you mean.

Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of man and makes mention that He is in Heaven (John 3:13) too. John mentions Him being equal with God, God being His Father (John 5:18). The writer of Hebrews makes mention that He maintains creation (Hebrews 1:3; John 1:9-10).

before sin, before man, before Satan's sin, before the need of salvation.. was God who became a man a son to God?

NO

 

[37818]

Again these are - according to your statement - referring to Him "prior to Him becoming flesh" are prophetic having been made - as you say "prior to Him becoming flesh".

It is definitive that all appearances of God in the OT are none other than the preincarnate Son of God (John 1:8).

 

[37818]

before sin, before man, before Satan's sin, before the need of salvation.. was God who became a man a son to God?

NO

Why not? All appearances of God in the OT was none other than the Son (John 1:8).