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Eternally Secure
- Thread starter Revelator
- Start date
Mine is similar. I was saved at 7. I didn't find God- He found me.
When I went to college, I strayed from God and "vexed my righteous soul".
Sorry, but that is not what scripture teaches. I Cor 5, Gal 6, II Cor 12, Heb 3:13, 2 Peter 1:9, etc. all deal with Christians who have fallen into sin. Not to mention the OT examples like David, Noah, Lot, Abraham, etc.
I agree that a Christian will not remain in sin. However, the time element is where we disagree. God didn't leave me in sin therefore I did not continue to practice sin. He worked in my life, convicted me of my sin, and restored me.
Kings and Chronicles provide a good picture of most Christians' lives. Times of righteousness and times of sin in succession. At no point in time did God disown Israel. He chastised them until they repented. He did the same with me.
freeatlast
New Member
However he was a backslider. </font>[/QUOTE]There is no such thing as a backslider under the New testament.
Daniel David
New Member
Askjo, he didn't backslide anything.
It is a story about a son who was ruled by his sin. That is why he left.
It is a story about the older brother also, who was a strict legalist.
Note that Christ was speaking to the pharisees. The emphasis isn't even about the prodigal. It is about the older brother. You have to learn to implement theology into stories.
Biblical truth: when Christ gives a person a new heart, he loves God. He does not, cannot, will not go back to the old lifestyle.
Eternal security is the reason to live righteously, not fear as you worthless grace advocates are proposing.
You who think you can lose your salvation have to preach fear as the means of sanctification.
It is a story about a son who was ruled by his sin. That is why he left.
It is a story about the older brother also, who was a strict legalist.
Note that Christ was speaking to the pharisees. The emphasis isn't even about the prodigal. It is about the older brother. You have to learn to implement theology into stories.
Biblical truth: when Christ gives a person a new heart, he loves God. He does not, cannot, will not go back to the old lifestyle.
Eternal security is the reason to live righteously, not fear as you worthless grace advocates are proposing.
You who think you can lose your salvation have to preach fear as the means of sanctification.
freeatlast
New Member
Mine is similar. I was saved at 7. I didn't find God- He found me.
When I went to college, I strayed from God and "vexed my righteous soul".
Sorry, but that is not what scripture teaches. I Cor 5, Gal 6, II Cor 12, Heb 3:13, 2 Peter 1:9, etc. all deal with Christians who have fallen into sin. Not to mention the OT examples like David, Noah, Lot, Abraham, etc.
I agree that a Christian will not remain in sin. However, the time element is where we disagree. God didn't leave me in sin therefore I did not continue to practice sin. He worked in my life, convicted me of my sin, and restored me.
Kings and Chronicles provide a good picture of most Christians' lives. Times of righteousness and times of sin in succession. At no point in time did God disown Israel. He chastised them until they repented. He did the same with me. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Scott J
the issue is not about time, but character. We all sin from time to time, but true believers do not return to living in sin. There day is always spent in living for the Lord with an occassional sin during a day. That is why we are called New creations. Those passage you gave do not teach that some person who was saved was living in sin as a Christian. We know this because of 1John 3:9
RaptureReady
New Member
Yes, I understand that, but when we sin and we do sin, we must confess that sin to God or else our fellowship with him is broken. However, you never lose your salvation because of sin, actually, you never lose your salvation.
Preacher Ron
New Member
Luke 15 :24 & 32
24.For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
32. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Note: The father did not say he thought the son was dead and lost, he said that he was dead and lost!
If the son had not went back hame, in the eyes of the father he would have still been dead and lost.
Preacher Ron
RaptureReady
New Member
The prodigal's father was human and could not see that, but our Father is God and he sees everything. The thing I want you to see is that when the son came back to the father, he was still his son. When or if we stray from our Father, when we return back to the our Father, we are still his son. Why? Because Jesus bought us and we are not our own, for we are sons of God.
The necessary REPENTENCE and the statement that the prodigal son was "DEAD BUT IS ALIVE AGAIN" was "LOST" but is now found is the heart of this question for me. For me, this parable is very definitely about losing your salvation and what is necessary to regain it. Salvation is not a single act 50 years ago. It involves a close relationship with the living Christ which is ongoing. Of course, we're going to sin along the way. What's required is repentence and turning back in the right direction.
Not really. Character is a result, not a cause. It is an issue about our nature. It was not in my nature as a new creation to remain in sinful rebellion. God chastised me and brought me back into the fold. I never stopped being His son. I never stopped being His sheep. I did stop behaving like it for awhile.
The difference is subjective, not objective. How much mud do you have to have on you before you are muddy? A clean freak won't be happy whether they have a little splattered on them or if they fall into the hog pit and have to crawl out... and nearly drown getting cleaned up.
You make far too much of your method of applying I John 3:9 and using it as a foundational verse for the whole topic. That verse says nothing about time. Are you saying that the only true Christians are those with no moral weaknesses?
Without intending antagonism, how perfect are you? Do you have no frustrating sins of omission or did you immediately start praying without ceasing and preaching the gospel to every creature the moment you were saved? Is it any less sinful to have an imperfect prayer life than it is to struggle with sins of co-mission?
In a way, your contention seems to rely on the "big sin-little sin" idea. Someone who lives riotous for a few years was somehow never saved to begin with while someone who struggles and battles with outburst of anger their whole life is somehow OK. Someone who becomes involved in sexual immorality was never saved but someone who continually battles being cool and unloving is OK.
I am not in your life so I am taking a calculated risk... but I would anticipate that you have a sin either of commission or omission that you have not overcome yet. Maybe you haven't even begun to deal with it yet. But I am not judging your salvation by it- God will conform you according to His plan if you belong to Him.
freeatlast
New Member
Scott,
then by what you are saying the passage in 1john has no meaning and is in vain. The passage is dealing with the character of the person. The one who has been born again has a new character and it is out of character for them to sin. The person who does not have this new nature sins within their character. Not all lost people are great vial sinners. Some are very righteous in how they live, but their character or practice is not to do what they do for or because they are being led by the Spirit. So they practice sin. The person who claims to be saved and then "backslides" which there is no such thing in the NT, has been deceived. If they were saved they would have remained in the faith and continued to live for the Lord. They are like the seeds in the sower. They spring up for a season, but wither away. True believers do not return to live in sin.
Paul made it clear when he gave a list of sins in gal and 1 Corinthian and said DO NOT BE DECEIVED! These will not inherit the kingdom of God. What happens in many peoples lives is that they come and pray a prayer and reform for a time and then fall away into sin. They never got saved, but they did have a great many seeds planted in their lives. Some time later the Spirit begins to work in them and they come for true salvation. The test is if they live for the Lord and remain. If not they still are not saved. I have seen some people baptized 4 or five different times. Usually what they are doing is creeping up on repentance. They want saved and do believe the claims about jesus Christ, but they want the short route to Him and try and hold out on totaly repentance. The result is that they do not get saved and fall back into sin at some point. After several tries they finally see that He will not change His way so they fianlly come to repentance and faith getting saved. True believes continue to the end, they do not return to practice sin even for a season.
then by what you are saying the passage in 1john has no meaning and is in vain. The passage is dealing with the character of the person. The one who has been born again has a new character and it is out of character for them to sin. The person who does not have this new nature sins within their character. Not all lost people are great vial sinners. Some are very righteous in how they live, but their character or practice is not to do what they do for or because they are being led by the Spirit. So they practice sin. The person who claims to be saved and then "backslides" which there is no such thing in the NT, has been deceived. If they were saved they would have remained in the faith and continued to live for the Lord. They are like the seeds in the sower. They spring up for a season, but wither away. True believers do not return to live in sin.
Paul made it clear when he gave a list of sins in gal and 1 Corinthian and said DO NOT BE DECEIVED! These will not inherit the kingdom of God. What happens in many peoples lives is that they come and pray a prayer and reform for a time and then fall away into sin. They never got saved, but they did have a great many seeds planted in their lives. Some time later the Spirit begins to work in them and they come for true salvation. The test is if they live for the Lord and remain. If not they still are not saved. I have seen some people baptized 4 or five different times. Usually what they are doing is creeping up on repentance. They want saved and do believe the claims about jesus Christ, but they want the short route to Him and try and hold out on totaly repentance. The result is that they do not get saved and fall back into sin at some point. After several tries they finally see that He will not change His way so they fianlly come to repentance and faith getting saved. True believes continue to the end, they do not return to practice sin even for a season.
No I'm not. I am contending that you are narrowly interpretting the passage to agree with your idea of what it means.
Character and nature are not interchangeable terms. Character is developed. Nature is changed at salvation.
I never said they were and cannot tell that this has any relevance to what we are discussing.
What makes for "practice"? How many times must a sin be repeated over and over what period of time before it is considered a practice? You have arbitrarily inserted time into the equation when the verse you cite does not.
David sinned grieviously. He didn't repent the day he sinned. He only repented after being confronted by Nathan.
I am curious. Have you never back slid to any degree? Do you never fail to do as well one day, week, year as you did the day, week, year before?
And how about those sins of omission I asked about? You say that it is a lie to say that no one goes a day without sinning. I say that unless you not only avoided all sins of commission but also lived every second to the glory of God then you have sinned.
So again, is every moment of your life lived "for the Lord"? If not, have you not likewise fallen from "the faith"?
True believers fall back into old sinful habits. Both Paul and Peter wrote to this occurrence.
I would agree that true believers do not stay in their old ways but that doesn't mean that we never fail... even fail in very significant ways.
Are you saying that during your Christian walk you have never struggled to overcome one of these sins? Are you saying that each and every day you exhibit to perfection the fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5?
This probably seems like an attack against you personally but I really don't intend it in a malicious way. What I am trying to demonstrate is that you are inserting your own opinions of time and "degree" of sinfulness into the equation when you judge that others sinned too much to have ever been saved.
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
Scott J,
I understand where you are coming from. I, too, had my time as a "prodigal". Although I am not proud of the fact, I know that God never let go of me during it all.
To have looked at me, or listened to me, no one would have thought that I was saved. But I never stopped being a son of God. Even when I was running as far and as fast as I could, His hand was always upon me. That period of my life was one of the most miserable times I have ever known.
It is so easy to sit back and pass judgement on the lives and sins of others. I have done it many, many times. But when the mirror of the word of God is turned upon our own hearts, we all want to change the subject.
First John speaks of perpetual sin, a habitual continuance in it. It does not imply that if a person slips into the flesh that they are expelled from the family of God and must be re-saved. It just kills me when people try to make it say what it does not say (and, no, I am not speaking of any particular person on the Board...I already know several who believe like this).
In Christ,
Trotter
I understand where you are coming from. I, too, had my time as a "prodigal". Although I am not proud of the fact, I know that God never let go of me during it all.
To have looked at me, or listened to me, no one would have thought that I was saved. But I never stopped being a son of God. Even when I was running as far and as fast as I could, His hand was always upon me. That period of my life was one of the most miserable times I have ever known.
It is so easy to sit back and pass judgement on the lives and sins of others. I have done it many, many times. But when the mirror of the word of God is turned upon our own hearts, we all want to change the subject.
First John speaks of perpetual sin, a habitual continuance in it. It does not imply that if a person slips into the flesh that they are expelled from the family of God and must be re-saved. It just kills me when people try to make it say what it does not say (and, no, I am not speaking of any particular person on the Board...I already know several who believe like this).
In Christ,
Trotter
My absolute all time favorite sermon is called "The Un-prodigal Son." The thread goes:
Vs.12- The father divides his wealth between THEM.They both get their full inheritance.The Prodigal blows it while the Un-prodigal stays on the farm.Upon his return,the Prodigal is restored to the one who has always been his father,but look what the Un-prodigal gets:Vs.31
"And he said to him 'My child, you have ALWAYS BEEN WITH ME and ALL that is mine is yours'." He got the whole farm!I feel that the issue in this account is not salvation, but rewards.
Vs.12- The father divides his wealth between THEM.They both get their full inheritance.The Prodigal blows it while the Un-prodigal stays on the farm.Upon his return,the Prodigal is restored to the one who has always been his father,but look what the Un-prodigal gets:Vs.31
"And he said to him 'My child, you have ALWAYS BEEN WITH ME and ALL that is mine is yours'." He got the whole farm!I feel that the issue in this account is not salvation, but rewards.
Preacher Ron
New Member
Hi NarrowWay
I would like to say Amen! Amen! and, Amen!
I was beginning to think that I was the only one on this board that feels the way you do.
I to believe that it is a closer walk than many believe it to be.
Preacher Ron
Daniel David
New Member
Okay, you who believe you can lose your salvation don't have a clue about what we believe.
You assume that since we embrace eternal security, we also teach you can do anything, sin all you want, believe whatever, and still be saved. How ignorant.
We believe that we are now ruled by grace. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.
Now, take your purposeful misrepresentation of our beliefs and put them on the shelf with your works based salvation.
You assume that since we embrace eternal security, we also teach you can do anything, sin all you want, believe whatever, and still be saved. How ignorant.
We believe that we are now ruled by grace. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.
Now, take your purposeful misrepresentation of our beliefs and put them on the shelf with your works based salvation.
Preacher Ron
New Member
Now, Now, temper temper
Preacher Ron
here comes a new one (for this thread).
let's look at what happens to a soul upon salvation.
1. Justified. This means God declared the person to be righteous. that is, God the Father sees the sould as having the rigteousness of Jesus Christ. to lose one's savlation means there would be Unjustification and Rejustification. but nope, it's not the Scriptures. Each sin committed beyond salvation will not cover the blood of Christ on the believer. rather, each sin will only show further that God's grace is always sufficient.
2. Declared as the Son of God.
3. Has eternal life. if this is to be lost, then this is not eternal life. rather, a potential for eternal life upon meeting faithfullness.
4. He is made a new creature. back to the old creture? i don't see that in scriptures.
5. etc.
Salvation depends upon the faithfulness and sovereignty of God, regardless of the (un)faithfulness of man. this is taught in Scriptures, and magnified by Apostle Paul.
let's look at what happens to a soul upon salvation.
1. Justified. This means God declared the person to be righteous. that is, God the Father sees the sould as having the rigteousness of Jesus Christ. to lose one's savlation means there would be Unjustification and Rejustification. but nope, it's not the Scriptures. Each sin committed beyond salvation will not cover the blood of Christ on the believer. rather, each sin will only show further that God's grace is always sufficient.
2. Declared as the Son of God.
3. Has eternal life. if this is to be lost, then this is not eternal life. rather, a potential for eternal life upon meeting faithfullness.
4. He is made a new creature. back to the old creture? i don't see that in scriptures.
5. etc.
Salvation depends upon the faithfulness and sovereignty of God, regardless of the (un)faithfulness of man. this is taught in Scriptures, and magnified by Apostle Paul.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
To everyone, how can you explain on Matt. 25:26-30? It tells, Christ shall judge at lazy servant, hid one talent, take servant's talent, give talent to another faithful servant, and Christ shall saying to lazy servant, cast into outer darkeness, there shall be weeping and ganshing of teeth. It tells us, Christ shall send lazy servant to hell.
Who is the lazy servant?
How about Rev. 14:9-12? It warns us, IF any person worship Antichrist, or receive the mark of the beast, cast into everlasting punishment. Shall a Christian to be deceived and cast into everlasting fire?
How about Matt. 24:24?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
p.s. Preacher Ron, please calm down your control temper. I understand how do you feeling. Be patience. God takes care of us. We are not the Judge, God is the Judge.
Who is the lazy servant?
How about Rev. 14:9-12? It warns us, IF any person worship Antichrist, or receive the mark of the beast, cast into everlasting punishment. Shall a Christian to be deceived and cast into everlasting fire?
How about Matt. 24:24?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
p.s. Preacher Ron, please calm down your control temper. I understand how do you feeling. Be patience. God takes care of us. We are not the Judge, God is the Judge.
Preacher Ron
New Member
I didn't mean that I had, or was getting a temper, I was referring to the one that made the comment below.
Now, take your purposeful misrepresentation of our beliefs and put them on the shelf with your works based salvation.
Preacher Ron