Eternity and Time

[KenH]

ETERNITY AND TIME

To have a true Biblical understanding of salvation, we have to recognize that salvation involves both immanent (inherent, present) realities in the eternal mind of God, Whose mind never changes, as well as transient acts that take place in time according to God’s sovereign purpose and will (Ephesians 1:11). The salvation of sinners by the grace of God in Christ, based on His redeeming work in time to satisfy God’s justice for their sins, and to establish righteousness for His people, takes into account the fact that God’s elect were realities in the eternal mind of God before the act of creation, the fall of man, redemption by Christ, and the new birth by the Spirit in time (Ephesians 1:3-14). But the immanent realities within God’s immutable mind do not preclude God’s acts of creating the world in time (Genesis 1), nor does it deny the necessity of Christ’s incarnation, life, death, and resurrection in time (Galatians 4:4-6), and it does not deny the necessity of God’s elect being born again and brought to faith, repentance, and perseverance in time (John 3:3-7). The immanent realities in the eternal and immutable mind of God demanded (and continue to demand) all of the transient acts that God has ordained in Christ for His elect and all that He has (and will) accomplish in time to bring them to glory. To deny any of these glorious aspects of salvation, or to set them in opposition to each other, is to deny God Himself as He reveals Himself in our salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ.

- Pastor Bill Parker, Eager Avenue Grace Church, Albany Georgia

 

[Van]

The OP presents unbiblical nonsense of the highest order.

First, God enters into conditional covenants, where if we do this, God will do that, but if we do something else, God will take a different action.

Second, is there any scripture that says or suggest that His elect, individuals chosen for salvation,, were "realities in the eternal mind" of God? Nope. We know God chooses individuals "through" or by utilizing their "faith in the truth." (2 Thessalonians 2:13) To claim God chose them before anyone was created, then chose them again "in time" is an attempt at scriptural nullification.

Certainly individuals are chosen according to His purpose and plan formulated before creation, as He chose His "Lamb of God," before creation, and in doing so, He corporately chose all those His "Lamb" would redeem, thus everyone saved was corporately "chosen in Him" before the Fall.

 

[KenH]

First, God enters into conditional covenants, where if we do this, God will do that, but if we do something else, God will take a different action.

The gospel of Christ is conditioned solely, only, TOTALLY on Christ Jesus ALONE.

If the gospel was conditioned on vile, sinful humans beings in any amount, no matter how tiny, then everyone of us vile, sinful human beings would be DOOMED.

 

[Deacon]

The OP presents unbiblical nonsense of the highest order.

First, God enters into conditional covenants, where if we do this, God will do that, but if we do something else, God will take a different action.

Second, is there any scripture that says or suggest that His elect, individuals chosen for salvation,, were "realities in the eternal mind" of God? Nope. We know God chooses individuals "through" or by utilizing their "faith in the truth." (2 Thessalonians 2:13) To claim God chose them before anyone was created, then chose them again "in time" is an attempt at scriptural nullification.

Certainly individuals are chosen according to His purpose and plan formulated before creation, as He chose His "Lamb of God," before creation, and in doing so, He corporately chose all those His "Lamb" would redeem, thus everyone saved was corporately "chosen in Him" before the Fall.

However, our main point is that, from the fact that to God the order of all causes is certain, there is no logical deduction that there is no power in the choice of our will. The fact is that our choices fall within the order of the causes which is known for certain to God and is contained in His foreknowledge—for, human choices are the causes of human acts. It follows that He who foreknew the causes of all things could not be unaware that our choices were among those causes which were foreknown as the causes of our acts.

Augustine of Hippo, The City of God, Books I–VII, ed. Hermigild Dressler, trans. Demetrius B. Zema and Gerald G. Walsh, vol. 8, The Fathers of the Church (Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1950), 259.

 

[Van]

The gospel of Christ is conditioned solely, only, TOTALLY on Christ Jesus ALONE.

If the gospel was conditioned on vile, sinful humans beings in any amount, no matter how tiny, then everyone of us vile, sinful human beings would be DOOMED.

My bible includes 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which clearly states individuals are chosen through faith. You deny this.

 

[Van]

However, our main point is that, from the fact that to God the order of all causes is certain, there is no logical deduction that there is no power in the choice of our will. The fact is that our choices fall within the order of the causes which is known for certain to God and is contained in His foreknowledge—for, human choices are the causes of human acts. It follows that He who foreknew the causes of all things could not be unaware that our choices were among those causes which were foreknown as the causes of our acts.

Augustine of Hippo, The City of God, Books I–VII, ed. Hermigild Dressler, trans. Demetrius B. Zema and Gerald G. Walsh, vol. 8, The Fathers of the Church (Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1950), 259.

Your claim, "the order of all causes is certain" denies the Bible teaches things happen by chance. Our choices do fall within the purview allowed by God, but to deny God sets before us the choice of life or death is simply a denial of scripture. Any time a man-made doctrine (what God is said to know) requires nullification of specific doctrine from scripture, things happen by chance, the argument is fallacious.

 

[Deacon]

Our choices do fall within the purview allowed by God, but to deny God sets before us the choice of life or death is simply a denial of scripture.

You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Augustine.

So are you saying that God doesn't know what our choice will be?

Rob

 

[KenH]

the Bible teaches things happen by chance

Totally FALSE.

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[KenH]

My bible includes 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which clearly states individuals are chosen through faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 states the following:

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation"

NONE of us vile, sinful human beings can choose ourselves to salvation.

 

[37818]

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation"

"From," that is, since not "in" or at the beginning.

 

[KenH]

"From," that is, since not "in" or at the beginning.

 

[taisto]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 states the following:

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation"

NONE of us vile, sinful human beings can choose ourselves to salvation.

In Luke 15, Jesus tells the parable of the Lost Coin. The woman represents God. The coin represents humans. The coin and do nothing to respond to the woman as she diligently searches for her lost coin. It is the woman who does all the work and rejoices when her lost coin is found.

“Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Won’t she light a lamp and sweep the entire house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she finds it, she will call in her friends and neighbors and say, ‘Rejoice with me because I have found my lost coin.’ In the same way, there is joy in the presence of God’s angels when even one sinner repents.”
(Luke 15:8-10)

 

[Deacon]

In Luke 15, Jesus tells the parable of the Lost Coin. The woman represents God. The coin represents humans. The coin and do nothing to respond to the woman as she diligently searches for her lost coin. It is the woman who does all the work and rejoices when her lost coin is found.

“Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Won’t she light a lamp and sweep the entire house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she finds it, she will call in her friends and neighbors and say, ‘Rejoice with me because I have found my lost coin.’ In the same way, there is joy in the presence of God’s angels when even one sinner repents.”
(Luke 15:8-10)

IMO that's stretching the parable beyond its intended purpose.

THE SETTING - Luke 15:1–2 (LSB)
Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. And both the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

>>>The Pharisees look down on outcasts and sinners​

THE MESSAGE
#1 - Parable of the Lost Sheep (Luke 15:1–7)

"Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:6b–7 (LSB)​

#2 - Parable of the Lost Coin (Luke 15:8-10)

“Rejoice with me, for I have found the drachma which I had lost!’
“In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:9b–10 (LSB)
>>> Jesus values the outcasts and sinners
​

Rob

 

[Van]

You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Augustine.

So are you saying that God doesn't know what our choice will be?

Rob

Hi Rob, why not quote me and address what I said?

Any time a man-made doctrine (what God is said to know) requires nullification of specific doctrine from scripture, things happen by chance, the argument is fallacious.​

Scripture says things happen by chance. Are you saying things do not happen by chance?

My view supports God's word, your view supports a view not found in scripture.

God sets before us a choice between life and death. Your man-made view claims God sets before some the choice of death only and before the rest, life only. John 3:16 says everyone believing into Him will not perish. It does not say everyone God predetermined could believe into Him.

As for a discussion concerning "Divine Knowledge" forum leadership ruled years ago, only one view is allowed to be advocated. Thus discussion of that topic is precluded.

If you do not answer my question, on chance, our discussion is at an end.

 

[Deacon]

As Creator he has the AUTHORITY to govern all creation
Being Omnipotent, he has the ability to guide and direct his creation
Being Omniscient, he has the vision to see and know all things

Do you really think God would leave the providence of those he loved to mere chance?

...who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace... (Gal 1:14)​

I can't help but think of Joseph whom his brothers left to perish in the wilderness,
Whom, by chance was sold into slavery in Egypt...
Whom, by chance, was given the ability to rule
Whom, by chance, met his unaware brothers
And, by chance, rescued the tribe from starvation.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to keep many people alive. (Ge 50:20)​

What we perceive as chance, is in actuality, God's overseeing providence.
From the seemingly random movements of the smallest particle to nations and even worlds, God is in control.

Rob

 

[taisto]

IMO that's stretching the parable beyond its intended purpose.

THE SETTING - Luke 15:1–2 (LSB)
Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. And both the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

>>>The Pharisees look down on outcasts and sinners​

THE MESSAGE
#1 - Parable of the Lost Sheep (Luke 15:1–7)

"Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:6b–7 (LSB)​

#2 - Parable of the Lost Coin (Luke 15:8-10)

“Rejoice with me, for I have found the drachma which I had lost!’
“In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:9b–10 (LSB)
>>> Jesus values the outcasts and sinners
​

Rob

Lost sheep will bleat and squawk, but they don't turn back. They are too dumb. The owner had to grab them, tie up their legs and carry them back. Then the master and others rejoice.
The coin is entirely unresponsive and makes no noise, being entirely oblivious to being lost. The owner does all the work in looking, seeking, scouring, and finding. The owner rejoices with others.
In another parable, Jesus is eating with a Pharisee and a woman comes to his feet, weeping and pouring perfume on his feet. The Pharisee despises the woman. Jesus tells the story of two people who owed debts they could not pay. The money lender forgives both debts.(Luke 7:36-50)
Jesus came to seek and save both the Pharisee and the sinner.

If you don't see it this way, Rob, I won't argue. I mainly wanted you to see why I have made the connection.

 

[KenH]

Are you saying things do not happen by chance?

NOTHING happens by chance. That is Deism. Deism is a false religion.

 

[Van]

NOTHING happens by chance. That is Deism. Deism is a false religion.

You can deny scripture till the cows come home, but your man-made dogma is overruled by God's word. You deny we could come upon a bird's nest by chance.

 

[KenH]

You can deny scripture till the cows come home, but your man-made dogma is overruled by God's word. You deny we could come upon a bird's nest by chance.

Van, you are denying Scriptures concerning the sovereignty of God, as has been quoted from the Scriptures in this thread. In your imagination you have reduced the God of the Scriptures to basically no different than the gods of pagan religions, such as Zeus among the ancient Greeks. Your vain imaginings are proven false by God's Word. You deny that God is the potter and that you are mere clay and that He can do with you as He pleases as your Creator.

 

[Van]

Van, you are denying Scriptures concerning the sovereignty of God, as has been quoted from the Scriptures in this thread. In your imagination you have reduced the God of the Scriptures to basically no different than the gods of pagan religions, such as Zeus among the ancient Greeks. Your vain imaginings are proven false by God's Word. You deny that God is the potter and that you are mere clay and that He can do with you as He pleases as your Creator.

KenH, you are denying Scriptures that say things happen by chance. No amount of subject changing rants will alter the facts.
Against the person arguments demonstrates ignorance rather than intelligence.
God is sovereign, He causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. He is not the author of sin. All exhaustive determinists deny verse after verse that describe events occurring by chance.