Brother Bob
New Member
I agree........
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Eternity in heaven?
- Thread starter Lacy Evans
- Start date
I agree........
Hope of Glory
New Member
Brother Bob said:
He came as prophet.
He is currently our high priest, making intercession.
He has been anointed king. But, in the picture of Jesus and Satan we are given in David and Saul, when was David anointed in relation to his taking the throne? Was it immediately?
No. But, while he was waiting, he surrounded himself with faithful men who sacrificed and endured hardship to be faithful to the anointed king.
The same is true of Jesus. He has been anointed king. But, he has not yet ascended that throne.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Brother Bob said:
I hope you won't mind if I jump in here. Oh, and as an aside before I respond, hyperbole is not exaggeration for the sake of exaggeration, but is exaggeration to make a point. Such as, "I ate a whole cow!" No one thinks I truly ate an entire cow, but that ribye was huge!
Now, as to point 2, people often use "born again" when they mean "born from above". John 3:3 says that to see (perceive) the Kingdom, you must be born from above. (Literally, "from the top".) It's the nature of the birth that is focal. What must I do to be saved? Believe. Mental assent. Born into the family.
Then, in John 3:5, we have to be born of water and spirit (we've already been born from above in verse 3) to enter (particpate) the Kingdom. Being faithful is involved. I have taught for years that this is the concept of being "born again" that is in 1 Peter.
"Born again" is used in only two verses in the NT, both of them in 1 Peter. 1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, "
What is the hope of a Christian? It's not to be saved; we're assured of that. (Modern Christendom has tried to change the meaning of "hope" to mean "assurance", but that will not hold up to the Greek, nor will it even hold up to the etymology of the English word.)
Interestingly, I have recently found out that there are some Greek manuscripts that contain "born again of water and the Spirit" in John 3:5.
Now, as to the "within/among" you thing. Even the notes of the 1611 translators offers that as an alternate translation.
Brother Bob
New Member
Just how do you explain the difference between here seeing the Kingdom and below, Kingdom not come yet.
The following scriptures suggest Christ already has a Kingdom.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jhn 12:15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
Jhn 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I understand what you are saying HoG;,but I believe the Kingdom is within the believers and someday it will all come together, seeing part of it has already gone to Heaven to be with the Lord until the resurrection, then God will bring them back to be reunited with their bodies and then both soul and body will take a Heavenly flight to meet the Lord in the air, and to everly be with Him, in Heaven.
I believe the church has already received the Water and the Spirit by being born again.
If the scripture "within you" was the only scripture we had, then you might persuade me, but there are all the other scriptures above which speak of the Kingdom being now.
Then we have the following scripture.
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Actually, He came as all 3 -- prophet, priest, and king. He was rejected but His prophetic words continue and He is High Priest and King over those who accept Him, right?Hope of Glory said:
But you do see Him entering Jerusalem offering His kingdom, right? And clearing the temple as priest, dontcha?
So aren't we either in or out of His kingdom already through faith?
skypair
Hope of Glory
New Member
Brother Bob said:
There are actually five passages that people use to try to "prove" that the Kingdom is simply something mystical and present and not something that is literal and future.
Four of them are easily refuted, including this one.
Hope of Glory
New Member
skypair said:
Since the Kingdom is future, then the answer is no.
Even Paul didn't know. That's why it's a hope and not an assured thing.
Agreed, but do we enter the Kingdom of God in the "Kingdom Church" to inherit the earth, or enter in the "Body Church" in Christ Jesus in the heavenlies. Where can we find in the bible we in the "Body Church", on the foundation laid down by Paul, they will inherit the earth?Brother Bob said:
I see the same as you.
You asked "question: 1. Is our bodies of the earth?" I answered I knew this before first grade.
You then asked question number 2, "Will our bodies be made over new?" I then answered with I Corinthians 15:50. This verse tells us we will not enter in the "Kingdom of God" in these current bodies that are made to return to dust again. Evidently we are raised or caught up in New Bodies.
Brother Bob
New Member
ituttut;
1Corth; 15:
36: Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39: All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40: There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41: There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42: So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The same "it" but changed to a spiritual and celestrial body.
Sorry, I just caught that you believe as I do on this. Maybe it will help someone else.
To be honest about the earth, I am not expecting to live on this earth again after death. I believe God's whole family will be in Heaven where God is. When you bring up about "end times" as if we going to live here again, then you lose me for I see that we will accend upwards to meet the Lord in the air and everly be with Him.
The reason for these two questions is the first question proves we are the earth, earthly. The second question suggests that our new bodies being the "new earth". I am sure you probably will not agree with that, but thought I would throw it out there anyway.
1Corth; 15:
36: Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39: All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40: There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41: There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42: So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The same "it" but changed to a spiritual and celestrial body.
Sorry, I just caught that you believe as I do on this. Maybe it will help someone else.
To be honest about the earth, I am not expecting to live on this earth again after death. I believe God's whole family will be in Heaven where God is. When you bring up about "end times" as if we going to live here again, then you lose me for I see that we will accend upwards to meet the Lord in the air and everly be with Him.
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StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Hope of Glory said:
You neglected to mention the most familiar Bible passage about being born again, the story of Nicodemus.
Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Hope of Glory
New Member
StraightAndNarrow said:
John 3:3 has "born from above", not born again.
"Born again" is interpretation, based on little more than the whim of the translator.
You can look just a few verses later in John 3:31: He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Did he come from above or did he come again?
It's the spin the translators put on it. The assumption is, "Well, if we've been born once, this being born from above must be 'born again', just like it is over in 1 Peter".
But, it's not. It's born from above. It's not "regenerating" as it is in 1 Peter, which is something that happens after one is born from above.
Now, the idea of "born again" is found in John 3:5, which is a regeneration, but is not in most texts. Although, it is found in some Greek manuscripts in that verse. This is something that I'm studying, because I have preached the concept of "born again" in verse 5 for years, but have only discovered in the past couple of months that it is in some manuscripts. I don't know the origins of them or anything else.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Us Baptists are never obtuse, are we? (BTW, there is an answer to this question that you asked, but I'm waiting to post it.)
Some are I should imagine?
Never say never.JN 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born from above. " (Revised)
JN 3:4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
I can't wait.
john.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Hope of Glory said:
Actually, I have to ask the question. What's the difference in being "born again" and in being "born from above?" You're splitting hairs. They both refer to a rebirth, a dramatic change in the individual who has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. What the difference. Merely semantic.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Just a moment here, but I want to ask: If it's merely semantic, why would God obscure the issue by using two different expressions?
The word translated as again/from above:
509 anothen {an'-o-then}
from 507; TDNT - 1:378,63; adv
AV - from above 5, top 3, again 2, from the first 1,
from the beginning 1, not tr 1; 13
1) from above, from a higher place
1a) of things which come from heaven or God
(strong's number 509)
Other appearances of the same Greek word (from the top, and from above are the most frequent):
Mark 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
509 anothen {an'-o-then}
from 507; TDNT - 1:378,63; adv
AV - from above 5, top 3, again 2, from the first 1,
from the beginning 1, not tr 1; 13
1) from above, from a higher place
1a) of things which come from heaven or God
(strong's number 509)
Other appearances of the same Greek word (from the top, and from above are the most frequent):
Mark 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
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Hope, you could be right but I doubt it. Why upon hearing the term "born from above" would Nicodemus immediately talk about returning to his mother's womb??Hope of Glory said:
However, we do know one thing about the OT saints like Nicodemus -- when the are born again, it will be from "above." The angels will bring their souls and spirits to their graves and the Spirit will resurrect them and gather them to Jesus' MK thrones.
skypair