Hope of Glory
New Member
To comment on what J. Jump said: "House" does not necessarily mean the edifice. It can be the family and all the persons dwelling therein.
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Eternity in heaven?
- Thread starter Lacy Evans
- Start date
I believe it's a judgment call which is open to one's perception.J. Jump said:
The New Jerusalem in the Book of Revelation is the dwelling place of God which can be scripturally defined as "heaven" IMO.
In addition, Revelation is a "signified" book.
I have absolutely no twinge of conscience in telling someone that they will be in heaven for eternity with God if they believe on the Lord jesus Christ.
While the Bible may not say in the exact words that we will spend eternity in heaven with Him, the words "God is sovereign" is also not found in the Bible.
So should we not speak of the sovereignty of God?
Where do we find the exact words "The Trinity" in the Bible?
And many other concepts (the Impeccability of Christ, the Kenosis, etc).
HankD
Lacy Evans
New Member
HankD said:
Again, you have to agree on a unique definition of the English word "heaven" before you can make this argument. If you can prove that the Bible uses the word in that way, I'll go along with it. But I just see "heaven" meaning "heaven".
But why tell them that if the Bible does not? Why not just say "eternity with God"? Was "Heaven" on Earth when Christ was on Earth? (Then where was his "Father who art in heaven"?) Was Heaven in the heart of the Earth before Christ ressurrected? Then where in the world did Hell go for three days? What a confusing concept and a mish-mans of words.
"Eternity in Heaven" seems to be a tradition that we hold with all our might.
Completely different argument. The Bible does say that God rules over all, hence the theological word "sovereignty".
But the Bible says just the opposite about living for "eternity in Heaven."
lacy
I didn't try to prove the "argument" because it's already been made by others.
So to reiterate: "Our Father which art in heaven"...
combined with: "In my Father's house are many mansions"
and the fact that Jesus has given us eternal life and prepared a place for us there, well then I don't know what else is left to say.
You speculate that the place He has prepared for us is temporary which the passage doesn't even hint at, I don't make that speculation but an assumption that it's eternal. That's why I said it's a judgment call.
HankD
Lacy Evans
New Member
HankD said:
I'm probably just brain-dead but I really didn't get any of that. What place and what passage are you talking about?
The Lord's Prayer says "our Father which art in heaven" God dwells in heaven.Lacy Evans said:
Then in John Jesus says that in His Father's house (dwelling place) are many mansions and that He is going to prepare a place for us so that where He is we may be.
In other passages we read that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father.
Put it all together and we will be in the dwelling place(especially prepared by Jesus that where He is we may be) of God in heaven ("our Father which art in heaven"). Since we are given eternal life the length of time in that place will be forever.
HankD
Brother Bob
New Member
I don't believe it will be the physical Jerusalem.
No one is arguing that these passages don't say such. But there is clear Scripture that says God's throne is going to move in the future. So while He and Christ are there now and work is going on there now as I said there is nothing in those texts that say God is ALWAYS going to be there. And there is Scripture that actually says quite the opposite.
So when comparing Scripture with Scripture we are not speculating anything.
Brother Bob
New Member
A number that no man can number and they are going to be put over there in physical Jerusalem? We need a reality check.
Here's a reality check for you Brother Bob . . . if there is no physical kingdom in which Israel rules at the head of the nations then God has lied, because Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jacob's 12 sons, etc. were promised a physical kingdom. That kingdom never existed the way it was intended to exists.
To say that man will not reside on the earth is to miss the big picture of Scripture. There will be a physical kingdom in which Israel will be the head of the nations. That much is certain as it is a promise of God. I don't see how you can work around that, but it would be interesting to hear/read how you try to Brother Bob.
Brother Bob
New Member
Rev. 21:
10: And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11: Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12: And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15: And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16: And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17: And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18: And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19: And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20: The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21: And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22: And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23: And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25: And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26: And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Does that seem like a physical kingdom on this earth with no moon, no sun, no night.
Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.
If that Kingdom is the bride of the Lamb and we are what makes up that City, and we are the bride of the Lamb, then New Jerusalem is the believers, with God and the Lamb the temple thereof and the light thereof.
2Cr 5:1¶For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Hbr 9:11¶But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
10: And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11: Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12: And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15: And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16: And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17: And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18: And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19: And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20: The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21: And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22: And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23: And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25: And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26: And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Does that seem like a physical kingdom on this earth with no moon, no sun, no night.
Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.
If that Kingdom is the bride of the Lamb and we are what makes up that City, and we are the bride of the Lamb, then New Jerusalem is the believers, with God and the Lamb the temple thereof and the light thereof.
2Cr 5:1¶For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Hbr 9:11¶But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
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Brother Bob
New Member
You are like Israel, you don't believe either, it seems. I tell you the kingdom is already come and we are part of it.
The time will come when we shall be delivered up to the Father.
You can stay on this earth if you want, I got my eyes and heart on Heaven.
They asked Jesus the very same question you are asking me and below is His answer to their question and yours.
Luke 17
20: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power
The time will come when we shall be delivered up to the Father.
You can stay on this earth if you want, I got my eyes and heart on Heaven.
They asked Jesus the very same question you are asking me and below is His answer to their question and yours.
Luke 17
20: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power
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Brother Bob
New Member
J. Jump;
Let me ask you a question or two if you don't mind.
1. Why would God build the city of New Jerusalem in Heaven and then bring it to the earth, unless it really didn't come down, but was the image coming down to show John?
2. It really is a good question of where would you put all the people in little physical Jerusalem here on earth.
3. If God makes us pillars in that City and writes the name of the Holy City upon us, then are we not the City as Jesus said, when He said the Kingdom is within you?
4. If its going to be delivered up to the Father and if it comes down from the Father, don't you think there must be two parts to it that needs to be brought together in the resurrection, like the souls and the bodies here on earth?
These are just questions I have in my mind about New Jerusalem. It has no Moon, it has no Sun, its foundation is the twelve apostles of the Lamb, its gates are of pearl and have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, can't you see how that I believe the city of New Jerusalem is a City not made with hands and in no way is a city as we think of a natural city, but is a city made up of believers and the saved? I know how you believe, and know most hold to some of what you believe, but I never have believed that city is a city as we think of a city.
Let me ask you a question or two if you don't mind.
1. Why would God build the city of New Jerusalem in Heaven and then bring it to the earth, unless it really didn't come down, but was the image coming down to show John?
2. It really is a good question of where would you put all the people in little physical Jerusalem here on earth.
3. If God makes us pillars in that City and writes the name of the Holy City upon us, then are we not the City as Jesus said, when He said the Kingdom is within you?
4. If its going to be delivered up to the Father and if it comes down from the Father, don't you think there must be two parts to it that needs to be brought together in the resurrection, like the souls and the bodies here on earth?
These are just questions I have in my mind about New Jerusalem. It has no Moon, it has no Sun, its foundation is the twelve apostles of the Lamb, its gates are of pearl and have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, can't you see how that I believe the city of New Jerusalem is a City not made with hands and in no way is a city as we think of a natural city, but is a city made up of believers and the saved? I know how you believe, and know most hold to some of what you believe, but I never have believed that city is a city as we think of a city.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Revelation 7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
I would have to say this is hyperbole.
Approximately 65 billion people have ever lived. About 7 billion are alive right now.
We can count them fairly closely.
Assuming that 10% of the people who ever lived were saved, then the number living on the planet right now would be equal to it.
Currently, the population of Jerusalem is 724,000.
So, if it's hyperbole, sounds about right for the few who are called out from among the called: 724,000 out of 6.5 billion.
I would have to say this is hyperbole.
Approximately 65 billion people have ever lived. About 7 billion are alive right now.
We can count them fairly closely.
Assuming that 10% of the people who ever lived were saved, then the number living on the planet right now would be equal to it.
Currently, the population of Jerusalem is 724,000.
So, if it's hyperbole, sounds about right for the few who are called out from among the called: 724,000 out of 6.5 billion.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Brother Bob said:
You may want to be considered a part of the current kingdom, but I certainly don't! The current kingdom is under Satan's authority!
I want to be a part of the future Kingdom that Jesus has authority over.
Brother Bob
New Member
If you have the mind of Christ and you say you are under the authority of satan? Not me, the Lord is my King. Do you disagree with Jesus when He said in answer to when will the Kingdom come, that it is within you?
So you think God exaggerated?
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Let's deal with the questions that I have posed to you first. Show me where God has taken away a promise to the nation of Israel. Then show me where God said He is no longer going to give them a physical kingdom and then we can talk.
If Scripture teaches as you have said that there is going to be no physical kingdom that Israel is in charge of then those Scriptures should be readily accessible.
Amen to that!HoG said:
Here you go making stuff up again Bro. Bob. That's not what was said. Satan is the god of this world. He is currently the ruler of this world along with his co-horts. He is in charge of this kingdom for the time being, but to the thanksgiving and praise of God Almighty He has appointed a New King . . . The King of kings and Lord of lords! Christ Jesus will one day rule this earth in the stead of Satan and I agree with HoG I want to be a part of that kingdom when it comes. It has not come yet.Brother Bob said:
The text that you speak of is Jesus speaking with the religious leaders of the day and the kingdom certainly was not within them do you think Bro. Bob? The kingdom was "amongst" them or in their midst, because the King of the kingdom was on the scene.
His kingdom has not come yet. It is still yet future. And yes I hope to have a part to play in that coming kingdom!!!