Eternity in heaven?

The earth was 'good' before man's fall. After that, the eath was cursed.

The Word of God tells us this.

The Word does not say the earth will be renewed, but rather that the elements will melt away with a fervent heat.

 

Exactly, and it will be restored to the "good" it once was.

The Word also tells us that our old bodies will be resurrected and we will be given new bodies. The same thing will occur with the earth. All creation wouldn't "groan" waiting to be annihlated, but to see the affects of renewal.

 

The great Puritan John Owen:

'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).

Related thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=39151

 

some thoughts here in response to some of the posts -- I've been out working in the neighbor's garden and haven't kept up here...

Are we the bride of Christ? The pastor of a church where Barry was asked to teach at one point challenged us to show in the Bible that we are the Bride of Christ. The following is what we found. We wrote this about a year and a half ago...

***********

We were challenged to show where the Bible says the Church is the Bride of Christ. Here is our response to that challenge.

Revelation 19:6-9

Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting
“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
And his bride has made herself ready.

Fine linen, bright and clean,
Was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Then the angel said to me, “Write: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

2 Corinthians 11:2 contains Paul’s words to the church there:

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

Paul does not seem to be referring to himself as part of the Bride! We read John 3:27-30. John is responding to Jews who ask him how it feels to have many of his followers going over to Jesus. Here is John’s response:

To this John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.’ The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. He must become greater; I must become less.”

So John, although a believer, knowing who Christ was and testifying to that, knows he is not part of the Bride, but rather a friend of the Groom. Yet he says his joy is full! Paul seems to be talking along the same lines.

If we look at Isaiah 54:5, it appears that the Lord is calling Israel His wife. However, if you take away the man-made title to that section (“The Future Glory of Zion” in the NIV, no title in the KJV), then it becomes apparent that this is not necessarily to Israel, but to any believer, or at least to some certain group of believers. The rescue and glory of Zion start in chapter 60. Here we do not find Israel being referred to as a bride, however! They are distinguished from foreigners (60:10). In fact, in 60:19, when one considers the parallel to this is in Revelation 21:22-26, it appears that Isaiah is talking about the new creation. And yet there are distinct divisions here, according to Isaiah. It might be that just as the Body of Christ has different parts (1 Corinthians 12:12-28), perhaps the Kingdom of Heaven also has different parts, with different functions. As we finish the final chapters of Isaiah, we can see that Israel is not called bride, but is call “a crown of splendor in the Lord’s hand, a royal diadem” (62:3). And although the picture is given “as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will you God rejoice over you”, the picture is of the level of rejoicing, not the position of Israel as a bride. “They will be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD.” (62:12)

In Isaiah 65:8-10, we read of the Israelites:

This is what the LORD says: “As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes
And men say, ‘Don’t destroy it,
There is yet some good in it,’
So will I do in behalf of my servants;
I will not destroy them all.
I will bring forth descendants from Jacob
And from Judah those who will possess my mountains;
My chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.
Sharon will become a pasture for flocks
And the Valley of Achor a resting place for herds,
For my people who seek me.

Israel is His chosen people, his servants. In verse 15, we learn that His servants will be given another name. Perhaps that name is “Friend.” If we look back at John 3:27-30 above, we see that John refers to himself as ‘friend’. If we look at John 15:14-15, we see that Jesus told his Jewish disciples:

You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

So who is the Bride? Evidently not all believers from all times, for some are His friends. At the least, the Bride consists of the Gentile believers from the time of Christ to the time of the Rapture – those actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit and obedient to Him in their acts of righteousness, prepared for them to do (Ephesians 2:10). This is, perhaps, a clue to why “none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect [whole, complete].” (Hebrews 11:39b-40) The friends of the Bridegroom will rejoice at the marriage of the Bride to the Groom. Their rejoicing had to wait for the Bride, as well as the presence of the Bridegroom.

 

I love the flattery, but it doesn't help much here. I can tell you some of the things my husband and I have talked about, but that is about all.

We do feel that the first line of the Bible "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is saying -- and this is much clearer in the Hebrew -- that God invented time, space, and matter as we know them ex nihilo, out of nothing. We live in a time-space-matter continuum and that is what we know.

We know from the little we are told about Jesus after the Resurrection that His body was not the same as before. In fact, there are some evidences the Disciples did not even recognize Him at all. And, as we know, physical substances did not seem to bother His movements. So space and matter, if this is any clue, are definitely different later. That means time is, too.

However, we know that there is sequence in the new creation, because the water FLOWS from under the Throne and the Tree of Life bears fruit in season, or at the right times.

But more than these clues I can't offer. I believe it was C.S. Lewis who mentioned that to try to make us human beings alive now try to understand eternity would be something along the lines of trying to explain breathing air to a fish.

That this creation will be destroyed utterly I have no doubts. Will God use the original subatomic particles to re-create, but in a different way? I don't know. Will travel be more a matter of the focusing of thoughts rather than a physical thing? I don't know.

Am I curious? Oh yeah! It will be fantastic and fascinating later, I know.

edit: just re-read webdog's post. Yes, the earth will be destroyed and not just renewed. Peter makes this very clear in his second letter: "but the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare....That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire and the elements will melt in the heat." from chapter 3

As Barry and I have recently (in the past year) been studying more about the possibility of the cosmos being created/formed as a result of plasma currents and filaments rather than gravity, the concept of it all disappearing in a roar of heat is not impossible. Although the NT is originally in Greek, the word 'heavens' in the Hebrew, as in Genesis 1:1 actually means 'that which is lofty' and can mean all of outer space or anything local. If the Greek word was taken from the Hebrew meaning, which I have no idea how to find out, then it may well be that the destruction right down to the tearing apart of atoms (a plasma is atomic nuclei stripped of their electrons) may well be involved.

 

Everyone, Hold Your Breath!!

Webdog, you wrote:

Believe it or not I totally agree with you. WOW, how often does that happen—actually, this may be the first time.

I do think the entire course of the Bible, the “story” of redemption, shows what can basically be called a “Return to Eden.”

While I have not studied extensively on this matter, I have read Anthony A. Hoekema on this and, if I am not mistaken (it has been a few years and many, many books since then), he argues the eternal state will be on a “new” earth and we will live, work, worship, etc. perfectly in a state of perfect relationship to Christ.

I think he goes on to argue the “Return to Eden” shows God’s original plans have not been (and could not have been) thwarted by sin.

Anyway, I think he (and you too) have an excellent point.

Blessings,

The Archangel

PS—I hope our agreement and me being a 5-pointer does not send you running to another “Eternal State” position.

 

Helen;
I doubt if it will be friend because of the following:

11: And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13: Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Why is it that when a calvinist agrees with a non cal...it has to be a shock? I only see this response from calvinists. I never hear a non cal say "wow...I can't believe I agree with you on something". We are not the cavemen from the Geico commercials

*now back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

 

In the Hebrew weddings, the Groom would provide garments for all the invited guests. We read in Revelation that the saints are given white robes to put on. We read in Matthew that there are those who will claim to be Christian but Christ will tell them to depart, for He never knew them (meaning to have an intimate relationship with them). So it seems to me there are those who will call themselves friends of the Groom, but will not have been real friends, and they will be tossed out, told to depart.

Just some thoughts. I cannot afford to be insistent upon any of this, just to show what we think the Bible may be talking about.

To anyone reading, please understand that this kind of thing is not a salvation issue and brothers and sisters in the Lord can disagree about any of this without acrimony. A lot of these things are points of curiosity we share and not arguments about necessary doctrines. We will all find out about these things 'at the right time...' -- later --

 

Have you been playing an old computer game Brother Bob. About 15 or so years ago I played a "computer game" with one of my grandsons, it taking us about 6 or 7 months to finish. If memory serves correctly, after going all over the known universe the "secret" was found to be a "rock", on the earth. When it was found the universe "did not disappear, and earth was "saved". This was a game of the known (to the computer programmers) universe with no hint of religion, evolution, or of a god.

Just an empty observation.

 

No, not playing a game ituttut. I believe everyone that knows and believes the written word of God and believes in Creation, will have to admit our bodies are a part of the earth. From dust thou art and unto dust thou shalt return.
If its of the earth and will be made over new. I don't know how anyone could deny we are of the earth.

I can see why most would not want the New bodies to be the New Earth, it would destroy most if not all of their theology on the "end times".

Question:
1. Is our bodies of the earth?

2. Will our bodies be made over new?

 

Webdog, you wrote:

Why did I know this was going to happen? Why did I even think my winsome response would be met with a winsome answer?

No, I was not insinuating that it is a shock a Calvinist and a non-Calvinist agree on something which amounts to a pretty minor point of theology. I was shocked that you, Webdog, and I, The Archangel, actually agreed on something .

In our discussions of the past, it would seem we would disagree on almost, if not, everything. So, I was excited we agreed on the “Eternal State” question. I saw it as a good thing.

Unfortunately, the tone of your response was the same-old thing: Discount what was said and levy an undeserved, snide remark. If I have misunderstood the tone of your response, then I am truly sorry. But, given our past history, it would seem a safe assumption.

No, I do not think you or any other Arminian/non-Calvinist is a caveman. It would seem, for whatever reason, you have a spirit of resentment when it comes to me—oh well.

Many, many blessings,

The Archangel

 

My remark wasn't done snidely. I just wanted to state a trend I have noticed. I don't think that comment is really necessary...and I hear it all the time.

I would hope we agree on the fundamentals! You stated we seem to disagree on about everything. I hope we can agree on who Christ is and we are saved by grace through faith...the fundamentals. Disagreeing on the mechanics of this is hardly "everything".

 

Webdog, you wrote:

As I said, I’m sorry I took your comment as being snide when, by your own admission, it wasn’t intended that way. My mistake.

Yes, I think we probably do agree on the “Fundamentals.” Perhaps I overstated things. Usually, on the matters we have discussed in the past, we don’t agree on much of anything. But, if we got into a discussion of the fundamentals, we’d probably find ourselves in agreement.

Gotta go for now.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Donna no offense meant here, but if God has given us the specific information as to what is going to happen, we should care about what He has told us. But this is a prevailing sentiment throughout Christianity today that is terribly disturbing.

God has given us great detail as to man's day and the coming Lord's day. What we don't have a lot of detail about is what will take place in the unending ages after the 1,000-year reign of Christ. But since we do have God's plan unfolded before us at least up until those unending ages start it would behoove us to gain an understanding of that.

What happens is peole have been taught for so long now that they die and eternity begins that it has caused great confusion in the plan that God has actually laid out for us.

Again no offense was intended as there are a great many that would join you in that statement.[/quote]
It doesn't matter how you word something here, theres going to be someone to jump on it right away.
In the context of this conversation, i was saying, according to many different opinons here, I didn't care which one was correct, or care to argue about it. that would be in context. Which I have found people here have a hard time with.

 

I've come to the conclusion, there are people who want to misunderstand, who want to make soemthing out of everything people say, who search your every word for something to jump on.
I'm sure it causes them to feel superior, when they feel more intelligent then others, when they feel they know the right word that in their opinon the othr person should ave chosen, and that makes them smarter, or makes them feel that way anyway.

 

Donna I know what the context was, but you have reaffirmed your position wtih the bolded statement. The overriding theme you have presented twice now is that you don't care. My question is why don't you care? God has given us the answer, so shouldn't we care enough to know and believe that which He says is correct?

If you think I am one of the "people" you refer to then you have sorely misjudged me. I merely made a comment on a theme that is prevelant in Christendom today and that is the theme that says I don't care . . . even though the answers are there for us. I just happened to comment to you because you were the one that brought it up.

I don't feel more intelligent than anyone. I don't feel smarter than anyone. I do however care about what God has revealed to us and I think it is important to call attention to the "I don't care" mentality of Christendom today. It is EXTREMELY dangerous.

If God says we aren't going to spend eternity in heaven, but we are actually going to spend it on the earth then why do we continue to allow incorrect church tradition to confuse people?

Again I tried to say that my remarks were not intended to offend you, but it looks like you are offended. No offense was intended to you.

 

what i don't care about is this argument, somepeople will argue about anything, nit pick till they can jump other people over soemthing, whether they know or understand anything about it.
What I don't care about is opinions, and whose is correct, or who thinks theirs is correct.
What I do care about is no matter what you say, I am spending eternity with Jesus, and thats going to be in heaven.

 

Wow...that's really all that needs to be said. WOW . . .

 

Without taking a side in this issue (actually, these issues), one thing jumps out at me, and that's the "I don't care"'s, "It will be heaven to me", etc. It's this sort of reasoning that has mixed many messages, such as mixing hell and the lake of fire, which are two different things, age-lasting and forever, etc.

There are many things that are different that are treated synonymously, to which people simply say, "Oh, well, I don't esteem God's words enough to care what they are, but just as long as I'm with him!"

It's contradictory.

Not that we will always (or even usually) agree, but we should care!

I can fellowship with someone who has vastly different beliefs about Scriptures than I do, but cares what they say, over someone who is very similar, but says, "I don't care what the words actually say". It happened to me recently, and led to an assembly split.

"I don't care."

I don't care who wins the next World Series, as that's not important in the grand scheme of things, but you can bet your bottom dollar that I care what Scriptures say!