So I see, you say an action by me is necessary only after I put you on the spot to answer your own concern. I will ask again, do you support the law or again, what else do you entertain? You are evading and it is obvious mandym.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Evangelicals least likely to support politicians & policies that reflect Jesus' msg.
- Thread starter Magnetic Poles
- Start date
So I see, you say an action by me is necessary only after I put you on the spot to answer your own concern. I will ask again, do you support the law or again, what else do you entertain? You are evading and it is obvious mandym.
Obamacare is based on a mountain of lies and corruption.
Maybe Sonjeo would like to suggest that liberals and democrats use a Christian approach to healthcare overhaul by telling the truth and eliminating the bribes and corruption.
That would require repentence of their sins by turning away from the old approach, beginning anew and making it a Christian process.
It is a Christian's duty to oppose the corruption and lies of Obamacare proponents.
I am not on the spot. You are and are working to avoid your poor behavior. I will be adding you to my ignore list.
How will that make healthcare better? Why can't I just keep the insurance I have now?
Are you asserting, Carpro, that the conservatives and Republicans are freer of bribes and corruption? I say freer because as any of us full well know this kind of business goes on regularly in politics and not to excuse them but the Republican congress under George W. Bush was one of if not the most corrupt congress in U.S. history. You protest Obamacare on the basis of what you already know is common in congress and I think that is disingenous at best.
I should remind you that Obama is offering this bill as a compromise to the Republicans. Want to know why? This healthcare law is for the most part the same law the Republicans were offering previously. It was their business oriented, free market oriented alternative they so strongly supported against the Democrats. It would be interesting to hear what these mountain of lies and corruption are, you say the law is based on.
Nope. Try addressing the point of my post. Reframing won't work. It just confirms you can't handle the question.
Tell us why Christians should support a law that was passed over the objections of the American people using lies, bribery and corruption to get it done.
Do you not agree it is a Christian's duty to oppose lying, bribery and political corruption?
If you do, then you cannot , in good conscience support Obamacare. If you don't, then I'd have to question your committment to Christ and His principles.
A single payer system would realize huge efficiency gains and cost savings in the area of coding, pricing, billing and collection efforts. The paperwork would be uniform across the system. Costs would be transparent.
A single payer system has its own set of problems but it's undeniable that there are huge administrative cost savings to be found.
Do you like your insurance? I hate mine. Call them and ask them how much a typical colonoscopy would cost. Ask them how much it would cost for an echocardiogram of your heart. Or to keep it simple ask them how much to treat a middle ear infection. I will be amazed if you get a straight answer.
With private insurance there is no incentive to control costs. If a new treatment becomes available it is automatically covered. Same with new drugs.
Here are my rate increases in the past few years:
2008-2009 24.1%
2009-2010 19.6%
2010-2011 27.2%
I have upped my deductible otherwise the increases would have been even higher. The way my insurance is set up the insurance company doesn't pay out one dime of coverage until I have spent $10,600 out of pocket in monthly premiums and my $7,200 deductible. Of course every July the deductible counter is reset to zero and there are monthly premium increases. Meanwhile, they've decreased their lifetime payout from unlimited to 10 million and now it is 5 million. Also they've eliminated co-pays and prescription drug coverage at my pricing level over the years.
I can't go to another company because the cost is within 1% or 2% of my current carrier. The pricing structure at the other companies is virtually identical. I expect my rates will go up about 20% this coming July. I am in good health.
There are plenty of problems with the for-profit motive in health care. The usual laws of supply and demand are meaningless as N
NE can go without health care. There is a built-in unending, in fact increasing, demand for it.The challenge is to find a balance between private insurance and government regulations.
Should they be doing that Bill?
"Automatically" was perhaps not the best choice of words. A better word would have been "usually". Usually once a treatment or a piece of equipment leaves the experimental phase it is added to available treatments covered under health insurance plans.
Health care experts point to the development and diffusion of medical technology as primary factors in explaining the persistent difference between health spending and overall economic growth, with some arguing that new medical technology may account for about one-half or more of real long-term spending growth.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670_02.pdf pg. 13
Carpro, you did not ask a question but I asked you one.
Again, What are the mountain of lies and corruption you claim are in in the new healthcare law?
Most bills in congress are always passed over some Americans objections. In the beginning the bill was slightly favored by Americans but after all the crying and frighful demonizing by the Republicans opinion became negative on the bill. After hearing little or nothing but this fearfulness people came to believe this but when they now see what is actually in the bill they favor Obamacare. The rightwing has been counting on ignorance and there is nothing Christian about that. Now:
When asked on the specifics of the new healthcare law Americans overwhelmingly support ObamaCare:
________________________________
"The law provides tax credits to small businesses that offer coverage to their employees" -
Americans support this - 83% to 14%
_________________________________
"The law gradually closes the Medicare prescription drug 'doughnut hole' or coverage gap so seniors will no longer be required to pay the full cost of their medications when they reach the gap" -
Americans support this - 75% to 20%
_________________________________
"The law will provide financial help to low and moderate income Americans who don't get insurance through their jobs to help them purchase coverage" -
Americans support this - 74% to 22%
_________________________________
"The law establishes a national, voluntary insurance program in which working adults can purchase insurance to help pay for long-term care services they might need in the future" -
Yep, Americans supports this - 74% to 20%
__________________________________
"The law will increase the Medicare payroll tax on earnings for upper income Americans" -
Americans support this - 60% to 34%
__________________________________
In the latest poll on mandatory health insurance, even though the Republicans have beat this fearful drum relentlessly basing their primary objection on this point- "Do you think all Americans should be required to have health insurance, or don't you think they should?" -
Americans support this - 55% to 46% Wow!
__________________________________
When Americans are asked whether they support ObamaCare, after having been deluged with negative rightwing progaganda couched in the usual frightful paranoid terminology, Americans are shy on support but when asked, as if they have any intelligence at all, about the specifics of what is actually in the law they overwhelmingly support ObamaCare.
I agree it is a Christian's duty to oppose lying, bribery and political corruption but the law, as you full well know has already been passed. The means in passing it is behind us but again you are still disengenous unless of course you oppose all laws passed by congress. Jesus is not concerned with you worrying about the natures of government that you would pass up, on that objection, the desperate healthcare help needed by millions of American families. Jesus said we should give to Caesar what is his and give to God what is God's. Jesus knew the corrupt ways and laws of Rome, the brutality, the perverted baths and the fact Caesar claimed to be God. Are you saying that Jesus was not commited to His principles nor commited to who He was supposed to be?
I think you may be under such power of your ideology that you are placing it even over the love of Christ you should be imparting to others through what you support.
Last edited by a moderator:
So...if we don't believe in socialized medicine, we're doing satan's work?
That there's funny.
So, sonjeo...since apparently we now live in a pure democracy (instead of a constitutional republic)--am I to assume that whenever 50% plus one is in favor of something, it should be so?
Third trimester abortions, maybe?
Look...America is getting dumber by the day. Fewer and fewer people have the intelligence and common sense to understand the unsustainability of socialized medicine, and the welfare state. More and more folks are on the public dole. Fewer and fewer people take responsibility for their own care. More and more people expect folks to take care of them.
I fully anticipate that at some point, a majority of Americans will be too lazy to provide the basics for themselves. That doesn't make it right.
Third trimester abortions, maybe?
Look...America is getting dumber by the day. Fewer and fewer people have the intelligence and common sense to understand the unsustainability of socialized medicine, and the welfare state. More and more folks are on the public dole. Fewer and fewer people take responsibility for their own care. More and more people expect folks to take care of them.
I fully anticipate that at some point, a majority of Americans will be too lazy to provide the basics for themselves. That doesn't make it right.
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
Single payer is unquestionably constitutional.
There is no evidence of that but there is clear evidence to the contrary. You cannot force people to purchase something just because they are living. Such an idea goes against the very fabric and freedom of the US.
I don't believe you . The evidence says otherwise.
Using you twisted logic, if you found stolen money, you would keep it because it was already lost to the person that it originally belonged to. No righting wrongs for your brand of "Christianity".
It appears you only oppose it when it's in line with your political ideology.
If at all.
Then why don't we see this in government monopolies that already exist? Ask anyone who's had to deal with Social Security or Medicare or the VA on behalf of an ailing, elderly parent how "efficient" these things are.
The problem is that these "savings" won't be passed on to us and, in order to have these alleged "savings", the government has to spend billions to nationalize healthcare in the first place.
Love it.
I see. So then, because you don't like your insurance, rather than finding a better package, your solution is to take mine away so that I'll have lousy insurance coverage, too?
Two problems with this. The first is that private insurance carriers have to compete with other insurance carriers. That means that it is in their best interest to keep costs down in order to pass savings on to consumers.
The second is that the government has no competition. Not only do they have no incentive to keep costs down, government agencies consistently spend more money and, in fact, must do so in order to get more funding.
Could you please give us an example of any government agency that has ever been concerned with "keeping costs down"?
Also, could you please tell us what you think of the "Complete Lives Program"?
There are plenty of problems with the for-profit motive in health care. The usual laws of supply and demand are meaningless as N
Actually, there are millions of people who choose not to have health insurance and do just fine.
Could you please show us where in the Constitution we're told that the government has the authority to be involved in such private industries as health insurance or where it has the authority to force citizens to purchase a product that they do not want?
Last edited by a moderator:
Could you please name the specific portion of the Constitution you believe justifies a government takeover of the healthcare industry?
Maybe he's referring to the "Complete Lives Program", which involves rationing of care for the elderly and chronically ill.
OK...I'm a broccoli grower, and I think you should eat more.
I manage to get a law passed that the IRS can fine you (or worse) if you don't buy broccoli from me, or some other grower.
That's constitutional?
Crazy, that is.