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Featured Evangelism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Oct 19, 2013.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Try reading first and second Corinthians!! This congregation is DIVIDED in many areas. Perhaps the most divided congregation of the first century. There is need for internal reconciliation between members.

    1. They were divided over baptismal administrators - 1 Cor. 1-4
    2. They were taking each;other to secular court
    3. They were boasting over sinful members - 1 Cor. 5
    4. They were divided over spiritual gifts
    5. They were divided over Paul
    6. They were so divided they could partake of the Supper worthily
    7. They were divided by false teachers and false apostles

    They needed reconciliation with each other and no congregation in such a divided condition unreconciled with each other could be reconciled with God in regard to practical fellowship.

    Finally, this text is specifically addressed to the congregational members which were baptized believers at Corinth and that is the "ye...us....you" of this context.

    This is the same condition of the Laodicea church in Revelation 3 where you jerk out of context, pervert and abuse another text written to baptized believers not to the lost world and it is plainly stated "what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES" and yet you pervert it and claim it is referring to the lost world.

    You could not see the truth if it slapped you in the face and danced all over your head.
     
    #21 The Biblicist, Oct 23, 2013
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No, only double dumb on your part! Any reader of Calvinism knows you don't have a clue to what they teach about the use of the "world" in the New Testament. Any reader of Calvinism knows that Calvinist point out at least seven different applications of the term "world" in the New Testament and one is the world of THE ELECT. Go back and learn the basics and then come to the table.

    This is your common ordinary kind of response when you are caught flat footed in error and I have seen you do this dance many times.
     
    #22 The Biblicist, Oct 23, 2013
  3. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    It's an Amazing Fact that Pastor Doug Batchelor has a thriving TV ministry.

    It's also an Amazing Fact that Jesus did not have a thriving ministry. The thousands He healed, fed and taught willingly abandoned Him, despite His amazing miracles proving He was from God.

    Question: Why, in His 3 1/2 years, did Jesus fail to attract followers while Doug Batchelor enjoys the trappings of worldly success, including press-on veneers?

    Did Jesus not beg enough?

    Did Jesus not love enough?

    Was Jesus' preaching not good enough?
     
    #23 Protestant, Oct 23, 2013
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No, Bob. You obviously don't know beans from apple butter about Calvinism if you think we agree with you that "in real life the way to evangelize is to tell the audience - "God loves you. Jesus died for you. The Holy Spirit is convicting you of sin and righteousness and judgment. Please choose to accept the Gospel invitation."

    First of all, it sounds HORRIFICALLY pusillanimous. I don't know how a man could be a heterosexual and present the Gospel that way, but I digress.

    Secondly, we don't proffer the Gospel. We tell men they are sinners and we command all men everywhere to repent or be destroyed and we promise those that DO repent and confess Jesus Christ as Lord that they will be saved.

    Thirdly, you don't know THE FIRST BLASTED THING about what the Holy Spirit is doing to that person. I cannot IMAGINE a more presumptuous thing in the WORLD to do or say than saying that you know what the Holy Spirit is doing in someone else!!!!

    And this "real life" crap you keep talking about.

    Maybe you ought to read a book every once in a while.

    The greatest converters of souls in history (history is "real life" in case you did not know) like William Carey, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, Charles Spurgeon, etc... did not use that weak mess to convert sinners.

    Maybe you are not in touch with "real life."
     
    #24 Luke2427, Oct 24, 2013
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So then you reject or accept

    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God

    If you want to distance yourself from it - and claim it is because you are Calvinist - well you have the free will to make such a choice.

    But not all Calvinists do that.

    Until we actually read John 16 "The Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

    Until we actually read John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto ME"

    Until we actually read Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in".

    Until we actually read 2Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

    Until we actually read John 1 "He is the light that coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY man".

    The list is long....

    So "yeah" other than such long lists - we might not know anything about it as you say.

    As much as that might be a wonderful way to solve the problem for some Calvinists - the Arminian position needs to deal with the actual texts that speak to the subject.

    I was thinking I would start with the Bible.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #25 BobRyan, Oct 24, 2013
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  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Both Calvinists and Arminians know that in real life the way to evangelize is to tell the audience - "God loves you. Jesus died for you. The Holy Spirit is convicting you of sin and righteousness and judgment. Please choose to accept the Gospel invitation."

    and most importantly " As ambassadors of Christ we BEG YOU to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

    We all know - this is the only method that works in real life.


    The post above was about the 2Cor 5 statement of the form " As ambassadors of Christ we BEG YOU to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5 - and whether it is more consistent for Arminians to claim it - or for Calvinists to use it in evangelism.


    Not sure why Doug Batchelor is coming into this unless you are simply pointing out that he is Arminian and he is free then to apply the 2Cor 5 appeal and be totally consistent with his presentation of the Bible.

    Not sure what you mean by "worldly success" - Batchelor gets a minister's "salary" by the denomination - the tithes and offerings of his local church are not given to him to spend as he wills. His local church budget does not include "paying Doug Batchelor" as a line item. Nor does the tithe go to him from his local church. It goes to the denomination and they send back a "salary" that is consistent with other ministers.

    Out of curiosity - why do you bring this up??

    How does this answer the question for Calvinists of either using or avoiding the following -
    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #26 BobRyan, Oct 24, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    ============================================================================
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God



    So then you are happy with 4 and 5 point Calvinists making the appeal TO THE Lost - in the form "20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"


    {Biblicist responds with an only-for-baptists style response as if this works in 2Cor 5}

    Whahuh?????

    Paul was just speaking to Baptists?

    Just speaking to the saved members of the church already having chosen the Gospel -- and he is "begging THEM" ---- for what???

    (This had better be good. :)
    ========================================================= end quote



    As far as I know - even Calvinists do not leap off the cliff of fiction imagining that everyone in church is saved.

    As far as I know - even Calvinists admit that Evangelistic appeals in scripture are for ALL "Come unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" -- "We beg You on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God" and of course "GOD WAS IN CHRIST reconciling the WORLD to HIMSELF" which in turn results in giving US THIS ministry of reconciliation" - where WE say to that same WORLD "be reconciled to GOD" for "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to himself".

    you did read that in that 2 Cor 5 text - right? And you do know that simply responding with lots more acrimony and vitriol is not going to address the point. - right?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #27 BobRyan, Oct 24, 2013
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  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    As much as that might be a wonderful way to solve the problem for some Calvinists - the Arminian position needs to deal with the actual texts that speak to the subject.

    I was thinking I would start with the Bible.

    in Christ,

    Bob[/QUOTE]

    Even if you were died in the wool Arminian, you still ought to know that "world" ALMOST NEVER means every single person on earth in history, Bob.

    If you'll come to terms with that rather obvious fact you will see the reason your texts do not support this notion of yours.
     
    #28 Luke2427, Oct 24, 2013
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I certainly agree that most/many Calvinists would add to the texts below "yes but not really the World like it says - some other downsized much qualified FEW of Matt 7 but not really WORLD".

    Which is why in the cases below I often add the comment "yes really".

    John 3:16 "For God so Loved the WORLD ..." --- Yes REALLY!

    Because it is at THAT point that Arminians and Calvinists differ.



    Romans 2:11 says that "God is not partial" and Romans 2:4-16 shows a very logical and consistent method that God uses to determine the lost and the saved.

    Nothing arbitrary at all in that - for God who "So loved the WORLD that He gave" -- yes really that is what He says about His own LOVE.

    Nothing arbitrary at all in that - for God who "is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" Matt 23 -- yes really that is what He says about His own WILL.

    Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" the unqualified ALL. Yes really that is what HE says about His Drawing of ALL the unqualified ALL.

    Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says HE send Christ "to be the SAVIOR of the WORLD" 1John 4. Yes REALLY! That is what He said about the mission and scope of Christ in salvation!

    Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says He gave Christ on the cross as "the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

    Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says He gave Christ "is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1.

    Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says He gave Christ "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1.


    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God

    If you want to distance yourself from it - and claim it is because you are Calvinist - well you have the free will to make such a choice.

    But not all Calvinists do that.

    read John 16 "The Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".
     
    #29 BobRyan, Oct 24, 2013
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  10. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Bob, I hate to take sides but you're just wrong. Calvinist have repeatedly told me they do not lie to their children and tell them Jesus loves them when they put them to bed. As a matter of fact they don't tell them that they hope they were lucky enough to be pre-selected as elect either - because that would logically be like going into detail if they were asked where babies came from. You just don't understand!

    Bob, real men don't tell people Jesus love them! But don't mind the digression, he probably forgot he wasn't on Landover Baptist.

    Bob, Calvinist only lie to adults and tell them their works of repentance and confess that that they will be saved AS IF they were pre-selected elect.


    Calvinist are the ones that convert sinners Bob! Try to remember that...

    Only Determinist are in touch with real live Bob. ;)
     
    #30 Benjamin, Oct 24, 2013
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is Bob's modus operandi! When his interpretation is contextually proven to be in error, he simply comes back and claims others are rejecting the scripture in question when in fact we are only rejecting HIS INTERPRETATION of that scripture!
     
    #31 The Biblicist, Oct 24, 2013
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So you would lie to your kids and tell them that its up to them totally to get saved or not, by "asking Jesus into your heart", when if and unless the Spirit enables them to do such, its an impossibility?
     
    #32 Yeshua1, Oct 24, 2013
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All/whole can mean either say for all the world literally all the earth, the roman empire the peoples of world etc!

    All can in same fashion mean all peoples, all of a selected group etc!

    So you strike here on this point...

    Next, IF all sinners were meant, Jesus died for all, and the will of God is that all who he died for WILL get saved, so all would get saved!

    Strike 2

    Finally, the same Lord also said thru paul that he ONLY chose to save out of Isreal a remnant for His sake, and that there are persons like judas/Pharoah who were created to be destroyed for sake of His own, so was He meaning that he loves and wants to save ALL as you claim?

    Strike 3, you are out!
     
    #33 Yeshua1, Oct 24, 2013
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yea, copying and pasting verses is not going to change the fact that those verses do not mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH THROUGHOUT HISTORY, Bob.

    The word world almost NEVER means that. And no amount of copying and pasting will change it.

    If you could fill up the Cloud with copied verses it would not change what they MEAN.

    The whole WORLD knows that!

    And by "world" I obviously don't mean every single person because there are millions of invalids and babies and people who have never even thought of these things. By "world" I mean what the word almost ALWAYS means- people over most of the face of the earth.

    The whole WORLD watched as the towers fell, right? How many times did we hear news reporters say, the whole world is in shock today.

    But the fact is that "world" did not mean every single person on earth. Only an absolute MORON would think "world" meant that. There are MILLIONS of people who did not have electricity much less televisions and radios to hear of that. There are millions of people living in jungles and on islands and in isolated savannahs who had no IDEA what was going on. Hundreds of millions of people were ASLEEP while the towers burned because it was the middle of the night when it happened for them.

    Listen, Bob. "World" almost NEVER means every single person on earth.

    No matter how much you WISH it did- it doesn't. It almost never has. And no amount of CLAIMING that Calvinists change the meaning of the word is going to change that.

    Calvinists are right and you are wrong. Calvinists teach what the Bible ACTUALLY MEANS by "world" and you teach error.

    I hope you will see that.
     
    #34 Luke2427, Oct 25, 2013
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  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by Luke2427 [​IMG]
    No, Bob. You obviously don't know beans from apple butter about Calvinism if you think we agree with you that "in real life the way to evangelize is to tell the audience - "God loves you. Jesus died for you. The Holy Spirit is convicting you of sin and righteousness and judgment. Please choose to accept the Gospel invitation."



    I see -- well then I stand corrected on that point. After all if even their own children are to be sacrificed to the arbitrary selection model - then who am I to insist that they are giving these sweeping 2Cor 5 style calls to the lost.

    Well said sir!

    Of course... I could quote Jonathan Edwards just now...

    Oops! JE slipped up and made a 2Cor 5 call to the lost!

    Looks very close to this same appeal to the lost

    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God

    Shall we assemble some posts filled with vitriol and acrimony to fully address the problem? Hopefully this is where all of that ends. :)



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #35 BobRyan, Oct 25, 2013
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  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ok - so now here I thought Benjamin was just kidding about the Calvinists - because obviously Calvinists will be telling their children that God most certainly loves them , died for them, wants them to go to heaven, wants them to accept Christ as their Savior.

    But then surprise.... surprise! Instead of the much-expected Calvinist justification of why they get to tell their children that God loves them - and still inexplicably cling to their "arbitrary selection" model - we find this...
    --

    up to them to ACCEPT the Gospel invitation offered at such infinite COST by God who really does "SO LOVE THE WORLD" that He gave and having done everything He "Stands at the door and knocks and if ANYONE hears His voice AND OPENS the door HE Will COME in " Rev 3....??

    You mean would we tell our children THAT Bible truth (truth that you would label as a lie all in service to Calvinism)?

    In a heartbeat for it is scripture - and God's WORD cannot be broken.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #36 BobRyan, Oct 25, 2013
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Turns out "world means world -- yes really".

    Basically you can sum up the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism in "God so Loved the WORLD --- yes really!"


    But in the cases I provide in that list - it does mean just that.

    But on a more serious note - Benjamine raises a good question. We have heard from Y1 on that one. What about you?

    On what Calvinist basis do you tell your children God loves them and wants them to accept salvation?

    Or is that when you put on your Arminian hat?


    =========================================
    Q2.
    Speaking of which - when does an Arminian ever need to put on the Calvinist hat? What practical good is Calvinism? (And don't say "when the Arminian wants to cling to OSAS no matter how it is refuted by the free will model" - because I do agree with you on that point - and I do agree that Arminians have no business going to that OSAS extreme.)


    =====================
    Q3.

    You say that when God says He "SO LOVED THE WORLD that HE gave" -- that we should not believe him - but we should think to ourselves "NO NO! Not the WORLD - no just the FEW of Matt 7 and the MANY of Matt 7 - well them He did NOT -- so love". In common terms that is "False advertising" because in your view He is willing to admit that this is just "THE FEW" and not "THE WORLD" in Matt 7 --- but in John 3:16 He says WORLD instead of "God so loved the FEW" the way Calvinism would have it.

    Why so "WORLD" instead of "FEW"? What is gained?? Other than the obvious effect of making it APPEAR that He is doing a much larger deed by loving the WORLD than in fact merely "loving the FEW"?? Because after all - nobody holds a gun to His head and makes him love ANY - so choosing to love one or two people (or whatever the FEW is) will be just fine - go ahead and call it "WORLD".

    Is this the way Calvinism views God?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #37 BobRyan, Oct 25, 2013
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I raised my 2 boys up in churech with my wife, and we prayed with and over them, read bible verses with them and explained what it meant, and told them that we are all sinners, and Jesus died to save sinners, and both of them at different times, both received Jesus and the Lord saved them!

    main thing was both my wife and I were earnest in prayers before the lord to have His garce on them, to open their hearts an minds to Jesus!
     
    #38 Yeshua1, Oct 25, 2013
  19. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Seems to me you "conveniently" left out that He only saves "some" sinners - those He pre-selected from before the foundation of the world. Why the half-truth for your children? You don't seem to have any problem barking out your "full truth" message of determination in public around here for adults...

    And exactly what difference would you're prayers (the "main thing") make if God had already predestined them one way or the other?
     
    #39 Benjamin, Oct 25, 2013
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  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yes, world... which means WORLD. Which almost NEVER means every person on earth.

    Glad you are starting to get it.

    Ummmm... No they don't. And saying they do doesn't MAKE them.


    You worship this statement "God loves you." Its a relatively new phenomenon that I know you think almost every Christian on earth has always said.

    But you are wrong. I tell my children that God IS love (which is what the Bible ACTUALLY says) and that God mercifully and graciously saves all who call upon him (which is what the Bible ACTUALLY says).

    No where, no where... don't miss this, Bob... N O W H E R E do Jesus or the apostles use this strategy of yours that you say we HAVE to use in what you deem "the real world" (of course we've already established that you don't understand what the "world" is so it is no surprise you also struggle with this concept).

    The Apostles and Jesus say "REPENT and believe the Gospel and you will be saved."

    So... that's kinda what I say, too. You ought to try it. The Bible is a neat thing. It works if you use it.

    No, I would not put on that hat!
    I wore it as a Free Will Baptist for 15 years. I went to a Free Will Baptist Bible College and preached a s Free Will Baptist preacher with it on for about ten years. Then The label "Arminian" began to peel off the hat and when I looked underneath I found the true label- DUNCE.

    I have no intent of putting it back on!

    That's kind of a joke, there. Don't take it personally.


    Whenever he wants to preach anything in Bible with honesty and dignity.

    Also, whenever he wants to ACTUALLY convert sinners.

    Calvinists have historically done an immeasurably better job of converting sinners than Arminians.

    The Modern Missions movement would be a good study for you.

    What you'll find is that William Carey and the first century of really great missionaries in that movement were almost ALL Calvinists.

    Calvinism is the greatest boon to missions in HISTORY.

    A little bit of study would help you greatly here.

    No, you should believe that God meant what he said- and since "world" almost NEVER means every single person on earth- no matter how much you wish it did- then you can believe God more accurately.

    The FEW of Matthew 7 pertains to the people he was preaching to at that moment. Mostly Pharisees were in view in that sermon and only a FEW of them entered the Kingdom. Most of them perished.
     
    #40 Luke2427, Oct 25, 2013
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