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Evangelist Bomb droppers
- Thread starter IfbReformer
- Start date
If this is true, then Warren apparently has changed his philosophy. In the PDC, he said membership should always be lower than attendance. I can't remember the exact quote and page number though.
I found the place on p. 133.
According to Warren's paradigm, if they have 84K members, then they should be running about 125K on the weekend.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
'Membership' mean nothing to me.
I dislike what I see 'The Hyles Church Manual' in the side about the introduction of his church. He boasts and claim church owns 60,000 memberships(year 1968). Now, that church claims it owns over 100,000 memberships. That was Hyles' boast. Where are all 100,000 members?
That church attendance hold only between 7,000 to 10,000. Sunday School rans about 16,000 children.
Seevral years, I read Sword of the Lord maginaze, the advertistment of Hyles' college. It claims, there was 15,000 coverts or saved during on a single Sunday morning, also, it claims, over 53,000 souls saved during year(1996 or 1997).
The problem is, where are ALL 53,000 souls during that year? Where are ALL over 100,000 souls(probably 200,000 to 500,000 memberships throughout 46 years since from 1959 to today)right now?
That church emphasis on soul winning, that's wonderful because of according great commission of Matt. 28:19-20. But I disagree with that church's method of soul winning. Their method of soul winning is "Easy Believism" such as 'A-B-C-' of salvation plan. Numbers of souls saved mean nothing to me. Where is their discipleship? I fear that most of them are already scattered away, are on the way to hell.
One church that I dislike, when I visited another church 12 years ago. That church hosts banquet, it called, "Soul Winning Banquet". Pastor give the rewards to the members, who get the most numbers of souls saved during year get the reward. A deaf man claimed he won over 500 souls a year, got reward. A deaf man told me he did won the award from last year(1992) for won over 400 souls. That night he didn't receive thr award. Guess what? He depressed! Oh come on!
Soul winning award mean nothing to me. It is not important. I rather surprise in the judgment seat of Christ. It will reveal to me what I am done on earth through my service work. I did witnessed many people. I did won several people for Christ, but I do not record or write down the numbers on the list, how many souls I won throughout my life.
I dislike Hyles' attitude. He claimed he won 700,000 souls in his personal soul winning in his lifetime till his death. That was his ego and pride. Numbers mean nothing to me, where are his 700,000 fellowers going?
Tell me how many souls Christ won them during in his three years of ministry on earth? Tell me how many souls, Apostle Paul won them during his ministry till his death? Paul's attitude was right and humble. He does not think of how many souls he won. He rathers surprise in the judgment seat of Christ, let the judgment to reveal his works what shall be.
Membership means nothing to me. That is today's baptist church's own public or rule. Because of competition, reasons of protect the church from being split or division.
Early Church do not have that kind of rules as what today's baptist churches' rule. Both are much different. Throughout centuries, many churches have been changing on their own statements, rules, and laws. Nothign new to me. In the future, many churches will be continue changing all the times.
Our job is telling people about Jesus Christ, to discipline them to growing in the Lord, that's all. Our job is not to "win" souls, our job is not to convincing them to join church as "membership". Our job is to discipline them to growing in the Lord, that's all.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I dislike what I see 'The Hyles Church Manual' in the side about the introduction of his church. He boasts and claim church owns 60,000 memberships(year 1968). Now, that church claims it owns over 100,000 memberships. That was Hyles' boast. Where are all 100,000 members?
That church attendance hold only between 7,000 to 10,000. Sunday School rans about 16,000 children.
Seevral years, I read Sword of the Lord maginaze, the advertistment of Hyles' college. It claims, there was 15,000 coverts or saved during on a single Sunday morning, also, it claims, over 53,000 souls saved during year(1996 or 1997).
The problem is, where are ALL 53,000 souls during that year? Where are ALL over 100,000 souls(probably 200,000 to 500,000 memberships throughout 46 years since from 1959 to today)right now?
That church emphasis on soul winning, that's wonderful because of according great commission of Matt. 28:19-20. But I disagree with that church's method of soul winning. Their method of soul winning is "Easy Believism" such as 'A-B-C-' of salvation plan. Numbers of souls saved mean nothing to me. Where is their discipleship? I fear that most of them are already scattered away, are on the way to hell.
One church that I dislike, when I visited another church 12 years ago. That church hosts banquet, it called, "Soul Winning Banquet". Pastor give the rewards to the members, who get the most numbers of souls saved during year get the reward. A deaf man claimed he won over 500 souls a year, got reward. A deaf man told me he did won the award from last year(1992) for won over 400 souls. That night he didn't receive thr award. Guess what? He depressed! Oh come on!
Soul winning award mean nothing to me. It is not important. I rather surprise in the judgment seat of Christ. It will reveal to me what I am done on earth through my service work. I did witnessed many people. I did won several people for Christ, but I do not record or write down the numbers on the list, how many souls I won throughout my life.
I dislike Hyles' attitude. He claimed he won 700,000 souls in his personal soul winning in his lifetime till his death. That was his ego and pride. Numbers mean nothing to me, where are his 700,000 fellowers going?
Tell me how many souls Christ won them during in his three years of ministry on earth? Tell me how many souls, Apostle Paul won them during his ministry till his death? Paul's attitude was right and humble. He does not think of how many souls he won. He rathers surprise in the judgment seat of Christ, let the judgment to reveal his works what shall be.
Membership means nothing to me. That is today's baptist church's own public or rule. Because of competition, reasons of protect the church from being split or division.
Early Church do not have that kind of rules as what today's baptist churches' rule. Both are much different. Throughout centuries, many churches have been changing on their own statements, rules, and laws. Nothign new to me. In the future, many churches will be continue changing all the times.
Our job is telling people about Jesus Christ, to discipline them to growing in the Lord, that's all. Our job is not to "win" souls, our job is not to convincing them to join church as "membership". Our job is to discipline them to growing in the Lord, that's all.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Jesus never made just converts. He made disciples. It takes from 20 minutes to two hiours to win a person to Christ but 20 months to two years to get him on the raod and going. A disciple is one who follows Christ. Mt. 4:19 says, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men." Disciples know how to fish and make more disciples.
That's unfortunate, because it meant something to the NT church. It is an important part of body life and fellowship that God has called us to. For it to me nothing to you is troubling.
The fact that some bad pastors have abused it, or distorted it does not change the NT teaching of it.
It's been my experience that most summaries of another's stand (especially from one who disagrees with the stand) are not completely accurate. Knowing how IFB has mis-stated my own stands on certain Scriptures in our own interactions, I would say it's a safe bet we're not hearing a faithful report.
However, in the examples of the situations provided where wives and children ought to obey their authorities (saved or unsaved, it matters not) despite their own feelings, the evangelist was absolutely correct.
That man led a sheltered life. He has never been in the real world. I have dealt with all kinds of people over the years wanting help. I can spot the idiots a mile away who have been sheltered.
If I did everything my dad told me to do I would have been a thief, not a Christian and cheated people when I had the opportunity. If I had done everything my mother wanted I would have been a priest in the RCC.
Some people have had great parents and have never had to face these things but others have not been so blessed in the early years of their life. God instills in each person a conscience with a sense of right and wrong.
That's what I picked up from it. What makes you think he values membership? He may ... I may have missed it ....
Hi my friend,
The point of posttrib's post was not that membership is not important, but that membership without commitment to Christ and his Body, the church, is not important, or legitimate.
"Our job is telling people about Jesus Christ, to discipline them to growing in the Lord, that's all. Our job is not to "win" souls, our job is not to convincing them to join church as "membership". Our job is to discipline them to growing in the Lord, that's all."
I put the emphasis on this part of his post. Perhaps, I'm wrong. But I think the point of his post was that membership without discipleship means nothing.
Perhaps he will tell us what he meant when he posts again.
The point of posttrib's post was not that membership is not important, but that membership without commitment to Christ and his Body, the church, is not important, or legitimate.
"Our job is telling people about Jesus Christ, to discipline them to growing in the Lord, that's all. Our job is not to "win" souls, our job is not to convincing them to join church as "membership". Our job is to discipline them to growing in the Lord, that's all."
I put the emphasis on this part of his post. Perhaps, I'm wrong. But I think the point of his post was that membership without discipleship means nothing.
Perhaps he will tell us what he meant when he posts again.
I hope he addresses it, because I agree with what you think he said, though I not sure he said it. I also agree with what I said ... I like when that works out that way.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Notice many baptist churches always often to make an offically for a person to become membership when immediately AFTER being baptized same time. That is not necesscary.
I would like to tell you a brief true story. My friend who was member at Methodist Church, he was saved in 1989 while he was Methodist. Later, in December 1990, myself decided to write down the form want to join that church to become membership. I gave it to the usher, then give to the pastor, and guess what? Pastor announced my name to bvecome membership EVEN he announced my friend's name for membership, but he never write down the form for become membership. He didn't make any decision yet. Pastor just announced of his name. Why? Because my friend was baptized at that church one week before he was announced to become membership. My friend only want to obey God for baptiized, that's all, not think of about to join that church to become membership. Pastor just announced his name to become membership. That was not make a sense.
Becoming membership is not requirement, that is not find in the Bible. That is the way many baptist churches doing it today. Nothing wrong with becoming membership of the church. That's wonderful. But some church seem demand person must to become membership immediate right after baptized, that is kind of their own policy or rule, but that is not from the Bible.
We cannot force person immediate to become membership right after baptized.
Some churches demand person have to be baptized in order to become membership, even that person already baptized before, but have to baptized again to become membership. That is NOT necesscary. If a person wants to become membership of the church, that's fine, then to make public to the church to join church as membership, that's all.
But, all churches should have ask questions to a person about salvation, statement of faith, etc. BEFORE join church to become membership.
I respect churches have their own policy ask any person to join as membership because of protection, and safety the church from division or split.
Become membership is not a requirement, it is not find in the Bible.
A person who is saved, and baptized just added unto the Church- join God's family that's all - Acts 2:47. This verse saying nothing about become membership. A person who become saved, baptized join the body of Jesus Christ as family, that's it.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I would like to tell you a brief true story. My friend who was member at Methodist Church, he was saved in 1989 while he was Methodist. Later, in December 1990, myself decided to write down the form want to join that church to become membership. I gave it to the usher, then give to the pastor, and guess what? Pastor announced my name to bvecome membership EVEN he announced my friend's name for membership, but he never write down the form for become membership. He didn't make any decision yet. Pastor just announced of his name. Why? Because my friend was baptized at that church one week before he was announced to become membership. My friend only want to obey God for baptiized, that's all, not think of about to join that church to become membership. Pastor just announced his name to become membership. That was not make a sense.
Becoming membership is not requirement, that is not find in the Bible. That is the way many baptist churches doing it today. Nothing wrong with becoming membership of the church. That's wonderful. But some church seem demand person must to become membership immediate right after baptized, that is kind of their own policy or rule, but that is not from the Bible.
We cannot force person immediate to become membership right after baptized.
Some churches demand person have to be baptized in order to become membership, even that person already baptized before, but have to baptized again to become membership. That is NOT necesscary. If a person wants to become membership of the church, that's fine, then to make public to the church to join church as membership, that's all.
But, all churches should have ask questions to a person about salvation, statement of faith, etc. BEFORE join church to become membership.
I respect churches have their own policy ask any person to join as membership because of protection, and safety the church from division or split.
Become membership is not a requirement, it is not find in the Bible.
A person who is saved, and baptized just added unto the Church- join God's family that's all - Acts 2:47. This verse saying nothing about become membership. A person who become saved, baptized join the body of Jesus Christ as family, that's it.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Of course, to disciplining a Christian is so very, very important according Matt. 28:19-20, as what Christ commanded us to TEACH them. Also, in other version says, 'to make them disciple'.
Matt. 28:19-20 say nothing about being join as membership. Matt. 28:19-20 talking about to witness, disciplining them to grow in the Lord, that's all. I hope that you understand what I am talking about.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Matt. 28:19-20 say nothing about being join as membership. Matt. 28:19-20 talking about to witness, disciplining them to grow in the Lord, that's all. I hope that you understand what I am talking about.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Posttrib,
Not quite sure. Are you saying that there is no place in a local church for membership?
By membership, I don't neccesarily mean "on paper." But those who are saved, baptized, and being discipled in a local church ARE the members of that church in the truest sense of the word. So membership is important. Do you agree?
Not quite sure. Are you saying that there is no place in a local church for membership?
By membership, I don't neccesarily mean "on paper." But those who are saved, baptized, and being discipled in a local church ARE the members of that church in the truest sense of the word. So membership is important. Do you agree?
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Let me explain more clarify again. Nothing wrong for a person to join a local church to become membership. Again, there is no verse find in the Bible saying that a person have to join a local church to become membership.
Of course, I am the membership of the body of Christ as Church. Because Christ dwells in me.
My point is, many baptist churches have their own policy urge person who want to join church, have to sign the form or paper as membership to join the church. The reason is protection from being division or split.
Today's churches' own policies or rules are not same as Early Church do. We all know that today's churches' policies and rules have been chnaging throughout decades or centuries. Being join membership is not necessary, it is not find in the Bible.
Bible tells us, person become saved, baptized, just added unto the church, that's all. The point is Christ is continuing BUILT his church right now according Matt. 16:18.
'Added unto the church' is speak of the kingdom of heaven is growing -Matt. 13:32-33=spiritually, not physical.
Understand clear?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DPT,
Several problems.
1. The understanding of water baptism -- Water baptism is the outward symbol of conversion, or Spirit baptism. As Spirit baptism brings one into the membership of the body of Christ, so water baptism brings one into the membership of the local body. Why would a believer not want to identify with a local body?
2. The necessity of membership in Scripture -- The fact of church membership ("on paper") is clear in the NT. From the beginning of Acts, they kept rolls, including numbers. They knew who the widows were that they were supposed to be serving (Acts 6; 1 Tim 5). They knew who was "among them" so that they could choose men to be deacons (Acts 6). They knew who was "among them" so they could put out a person by discipline.
I think membership in a local church is mandated in the NT, through the clear pattern of Scripture that shows the status of member to be the expected. They didn't specifically say you should be a member because it never crossed anyone's mind to not be a member.
Church membership provides the vital accountability and involvement in ministry.
Here is a great article on membership: http://www.spiritualdisciplines.org/whyjoin.html
Several problems.
1. The understanding of water baptism -- Water baptism is the outward symbol of conversion, or Spirit baptism. As Spirit baptism brings one into the membership of the body of Christ, so water baptism brings one into the membership of the local body. Why would a believer not want to identify with a local body?
2. The necessity of membership in Scripture -- The fact of church membership ("on paper") is clear in the NT. From the beginning of Acts, they kept rolls, including numbers. They knew who the widows were that they were supposed to be serving (Acts 6; 1 Tim 5). They knew who was "among them" so that they could choose men to be deacons (Acts 6). They knew who was "among them" so they could put out a person by discipline.
I think membership in a local church is mandated in the NT, through the clear pattern of Scripture that shows the status of member to be the expected. They didn't specifically say you should be a member because it never crossed anyone's mind to not be a member.
Church membership provides the vital accountability and involvement in ministry.
Here is a great article on membership: http://www.spiritualdisciplines.org/whyjoin.html
Larry,
I agree with you. I was trying to remove any obstacle DPT might have with membership by saying not neccessarily on paper.
Clearly the early church knew who their members were and could even put them out of the church if neccessary.
It appears that you were right about DPT's view on membership. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and he has proven me wrong.
Membership in a local body is important in whatever form that takes. The church knows who its members are because they attend, serve, and are being discipled.
If DPT wants to say that that is not membership and the Bible doesn't teach that, then he has proven Larry's assertion.
I agree with you. I was trying to remove any obstacle DPT might have with membership by saying not neccessarily on paper.
Clearly the early church knew who their members were and could even put them out of the church if neccessary.
It appears that you were right about DPT's view on membership. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and he has proven me wrong.
Membership in a local body is important in whatever form that takes. The church knows who its members are because they attend, serve, and are being discipled.
If DPT wants to say that that is not membership and the Bible doesn't teach that, then he has proven Larry's assertion.
