Every Doctrine Could Cost You....!

[Darron Steele]

No, we teach that once something follow the Lords plan of salvation as laid out for us in the New Testament - then one is added to the Lords church.
We never 'judge' anyone, we never announce someone to be 'acceptable' or 'not acceptable' we do not keep a record of 'those saved' 'those not saved' 'those who tried to be saved but really aren't' ect...

Give me a break. The groups I have described may not "announce" it or keep a written "record" but they have their assumptions. They would never dare air them publicly.

I bet that if a person is `faithfully attending' and `sound in doctrine' = `agree with what those allowed in the pulpit say you should believe,' then you assume that s/he is a Christian. Otherwise, I bet your group at least does not assume that s/he is.

If I am wrong, I would love to hear by description about someone who
a) is not a member of your group, but
b) is nonetheless a Christian.
No vagueness: I want specifics.

Now: imagine that I decide I want to join your group. I:
1) believe on Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Son of the living God, and accordingly have repented my prior sinful life,
2) confessed Him before men and women,
3) been baptized = immersed
4) live as best I can for Him.

However, I believe
-- that unimmersed = unbaptized Christians exist,
-- that it is okay for a congregation to use musical instruments,
-- that a Christian will continue to live for the Lord and never be unsaved,
-- that people can try to speak in tongues and be Christians,
-- I should try to be in as much fellowship and cooperation with Christians of outside groups as I can,
-- that people can be Christians even if they disagree with me on Bible inerrancy,
-- that there are Christians outside the Churches of Christ
-- that there was no ordained New Testament-era congregation pattern for assemblies,
-- the Lord's Supper should be taken often, but not necessarily weekly, even though I do take it that often.

Would your congregation accept me? I predict no. I predict that your leadership would not even announce my interest to the congregation. Why? `He is not a Christian, so is not eligible.'

Would you assume that I am a Christian? I predict no -- or at least `not yes.'

The Church of Christ congregation I am a regular visitor at would not have accepted me now as a Christian just 18 years ago. 17 years after no longer going there, I was a 14-year Christian, and I got a lot of surprises as I kept visiting. Although much is the same, things have changed.

If your portion of the Churches of Christ is not like what I described, I can assure you from first-hand experience that there are. One of them is just 35 minutes south of me.

 

[EdSutton]

Just thought I'd comment on a couple of things some others have brought up, here.

2. If a church doesn't have the "right" name...

If a church would rather name themselves after a man[founder], man-made name, or something other than the name of the true church's founder (Matthew 16:18) and who bought it with his own blood (Acts 20:28) - hence we have the church of Christ.

Just out of curiosity, what would you think of "churches of the saints"? Would you consider "church of God"? Maybe the "church of the firstborn"? How about "the church of the living God"? Would you consider "the church which is His body"? Or "the church (fill in location) in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ"? What would you think of that one??

How do you really 'feel' about Biblical designations, considering one cannot find the designation of any "church of Christ" in Scripture (although one can find one instance of the plural usage, and one saying the churches of Judea were in Christ), at least in the King James, New King James, or any of the other 18 English Versions on Bible Gateway? Not one instance of that phrase and/or designation occurring. Obviously I cannot speak for any of the other 200 or so English versions one could check, since I don't have a concordance for any of them or a computer program to do all of this 'heavy lifting' for me.

Uh- You did say something about a "man-made name", I believe??

If a church doesn't observe the Lord Supper every Sunday...

If a church doesn't follow in the Apostle's doctrine (Acts 2:42) and their example (Acts 20:7)

Does that not include breaking bread as one visits from house to house, daily? What about when Paul & Co. did this a second time, in a few hours, after he had been preaching half the night? Or when he was shipwrecked? What about when Jesus broke bread with the two disciples the day of his resurrection? There are specific commands about the Lord's Supper, I believe to be found in I Cor. 10 and 11, where I seem to recall something about "as often" but didn't read any command as to "how often". Might wanna' look at that just a little closer.

Revelation is a book of figurative language and uses symbolic terms to reveal its message to those informed - from an outsider it will look like a literal 1000; but it musn't be taken that way.

And you know all this how? I'm really curious, here.

With all respect, and without seeming to sound like a smart-aleck, or be any braggart, and while I certainly could be wrong here, I'm going to suggest that I likely have studied Revelation more than you probably have, simply because I have heard a few varied messages from that book, heard messages on the radio, been through the book mostly verse by verse, in Bible Study, under five different pastors (in two different churches), not all of whom held the same views, have been through the book twice in Sunday School Bible Study classes, where we now use a Bible book curriculum, which repeats every so many years, with a different study-guide (Rev. takes 6 mos, alone), had a three hour Bible College course in Daniel & Revelation, and was a graduate assistant for the same course, where I was required to not only outline the Professor's lectures, for the benefit of students who may have missed the class, and need to study the notes, but produce my own course outlines of the books, plus be available for two to three hours a day, just to cover missed course work by students, give make-up exams, and answer questions from the undergraduate students who had them - all the more than 700 students, in that lecture class, while I was holding down a full time job, at that, with most of the students also working.

Ya' wanna' get serious about studying any book real quick? Try that, and have a defensible answer ready for anything 700 students can come up with. I assure you, it was a challenge (and I can also assure you I did not always have, nor was I close to being able come up with any very good answer, even so), that today I would take nothing for, and one could not possibly pay me enough to ever do it again.

I have been asked how I know what I do happen to know about the Book of Revelation, by some who have bemoaned the fact that they do not understand anywhere near what I appear to, to them. My answer is always the same, exactly what I have told you, here. Do what I have done, in this (and I very roughly estimate I have spent 500-700 hours total time in Revelation over the 45+years), and you likely will understand far more than I ever have. I honestly do not think one will get even what little I believe I do know in merely a handful of assorted messages, on this subject.

BTW, Revelation is the only book in the Bible that specifically promises a three fold blessing for those who read it, hear it, and heed it. I claimed that promise, long ago, and was certainly glad I had claimed it before I had to face those 700 Bible College Freshmen and Sophomores. :BangHead: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[DHK]

A few years ago one of the members of BB visited a C of C and picked up one of their brochures defining their statement of faith. Here is what it stated:

The Rules & Pattern of the Church of Christ

1 It must be noted immediately that this list is not to be construed as a written creed. No statement of beliefs or rules outside the Bible itself is permitted. However, it will be permitted that such lists of beliefs or rules shall be allowed if written in a church bulletin or other published material provided that such is clearly designated as not being a written creed. This list is here shared merely as a convenience and with the understanding that there is really no need for such since all these rules are to be found in a clear and unmistakable form scattered throughout the pages of the collected books of the New Testament. It is also to be believed that anyone who truly loves God and the truth will easily find these exact rules and consequently obey.

2 By Scriptural definition (and for the purpose of applying these rules), a Christian is one who has done the following five acts of salvation (and in this order): hear, believe, repent, confess (a “Yes” response to the question “Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?” shall be construed as a valid confession), and be baptized. Of the several purposes and benefits of baptism, one must know that baptism is “for the remission of sins” in order for God to consider it a valid baptism.

3 A person who has completed the above five acts of salvation, but who comes to doubt the validity of their baptism (perhaps later thinking that he/she did not fully understand the primary purpose), shall be baptized again. One of the following scenarios must be adopted: 1) that the entire previous life of the person in question shall be considered as one outside of Christ and separated from God, thus only now becoming a new child of God; or, 2) that the person in question is being rebaptized “just in case”. In this instance, it shall be assumed that the person is doing so with the knowledge that baptism is generally “for the remission of sins”, even though he/she has may not be sure if such cleansing is really needed. Regardless, any rebaptism shall be preceded with the standard ritual of confession (one’s previous life as an apparent believing Christian shall not suffice as meeting this requirement).

4 The Bible shall be considered as the standard of authority for every spiritual matter. It shall be interpreted using the approved method of “command, example, and necessary inference”. Silence of the Scriptures on any matter is to be construed as a forbiddance of such. However, this rule shall not be applied to matters considered to be helpful in obeying any other commands (such as church buildings and their necessary furnishings, etc.).

5 Congregations shall name themselves according to the following guidelines: 1) the name shall be one that is found in Scripture and has within it the name of God or Christ (it shall be permitted that Paul’s use of the term “churches of Christ” in referring to various congregations may be used as a formal name and amended to “Church of Christ”); and, 2) the name may be preceded with a location description, that being the location of the church building, not necessarily the location of the church itself.

6 All those congregations who use the same generic name (excluding the location part of the name) and uniformly subscribe to these rules shall be considered as “the brotherhood”; no other Christian (one who has believed and been baptized but does not subscribe to one or more of these rules) shall be considered as being a part of “the brotherhood”.

7 Individual members of the church may be called by several different names that are found in Scripture (“disciples”, “saints”, “children of God”), but “Christian” is the preferred designation.

8 The church shall gather every first day of the week for worship. (Note: Most calendars have Sunday as the first day of the week. Cultures whose calendars are different will have to decide whether to observe Sunday or their first day of the week; no further help here is given in making that decision.)

9 The worship service shall consist of the following five acts of worship: praying, singing, giving, partaking of the Lord’s Supper, and preaching. The reading of Scripture shall also be considered as acceptable since it relates to preaching. No other acts (such as lighting candles, dramatic presentations or readings, etc.) shall be allowed in the service other than the following exceptions: making of announcements, recognizing of families who wish to place membership with the congregation, giving of Bibles to graduates or other special people, or other such special activities that shall be deemed as appropriate for the worship service.

10 It is permissible for congregations to have salaried preachers and other paid employees (such as youth ministers, education ministers, secretaries, janitors, etc.).

11 Acceptable designations for preachers shall be the following: “ministers”, “evangelists”, or “gospel preachers”. Generally speaking, all preaching can be called “gospel preaching” regardless of the subject. Sermons shall typically be ended with an invitation to be baptized or to rededicate one’s life to the Lord.

12 The Lord’s Supper shall be observed every first day of the week, and it cannot be observed on any day other than the first day of the week (nor at any function other than one specified as a formal worship service). If the congregation chooses to have another worship service later in the day, the Lord’s Supper shall then be observed again. However, only those who were not at the earlier service (or who otherwise did not already partake) are expected to partake. These same persons are to be given the opportunity to put an offering in the collection plate. These two acts of worship can be done in the presence of others who merely watch, or it can be done in a separate assembly apart from other Christians.

13 The Lord’s Supper shall consist of the following (and in this order): 1) a prayer of thanksgiving for the bread (which must be unleavened); 2) the distributing of the bread; 3) a prayer of thanksgiving for the fruit of the vine; and, 4) the distributing of the fruit of the vine.

14 Those who have not been baptized shall not be allowed to conduct any public part of the service. There is one exception to this rule: young boys who have not yet been immersed may be permitted to read Scripture in the general assembly or to lead singing or prayers in a special assembly for the purpose of training such boys.

15 Those who have not been baptized shall be allowed to participate in the worship by listening to the prayers and the preaching. They are further allowed to actively participate by joining in the singing and by putting money in the collection plate. They are not, however, allowed to partake of the Lord’s Supper.

16 The music of the worship assembly shall be limited to the vocal expression of words. No humming or other non-worded sounds are permitted. The use of harmonious or other singing shall be deemed as fulfilling the pattern of chanting as found in the early church.

17 No instrument of music shall be used at any time in the worship other than to play the first note or key of a song before the singing of that song. The use of a song leader is permitted, as is the use of a microphone for him. Song books or other such aids are also permitted. However, it is forbidden for more than one person to help in leading the singing, and no voice other than that of the one song leader’s may be amplified by artificial means.

18 Singing shall at all times be congregational; at no time is it permitted for one person or group of persons to sing while another merely listens, other than at those brief times when a song is written accordingly. In other words, it is permissible for different people to sing different parts at different times during a song, provided that all members sing at some point during the song and it can reasonably be said that they all sang together.

19 If a congregation wishes to permit a separate group (such as a chorus) to sing to the congregation, it must be done in a separate assembly, or at least after what is considered the closing prayer of the worship assembly. It is permitted for the chorus to sing, read Scripture, and end with a closing prayer, but this shall not be considered as a time of worship, nor shall any individual in the audience allow their thoughts or feelings to be intended as a worship unto God. It is merely a performance for entertainment value; the fact that songs, hymns, and spiritual songs are being sung is inconsequential. If a woman should be used to lead the group, she is not permitted to speak until after the close of this non-worship service.

 

[DHK]

20 There shall be no clapping, raising of hands, or any other gesture or indecent or disorderly action during the worship service. However, a congregation is allowed to suspend this rule during special child-oriented services such as Vacation Bible Schools or Youth Rallies.

21 During the worship assembly, men are allowed (but not required) to say aloud “amen” or some other similar word or phrase as long as such is done decently and in order. Expressions such as “Praise the Lord” would technically be permitted, but are not recommended.

22 A collection of money is to be taken every first day of the week. Each Christian is to give as he purposes in his heart, keeping in mind the amount generally required under the Old Law. The money collected shall be put into a church treasury and referred to as “the Lord’s money”, but it can be used for a variety of purposes such as church buildings, utility bills, employee salaries, landscaping, etc. (all at the discretion of the elders). Funds cannot be obtained and deposited into the church treasury by any other means than by free will offerings. Fundraisers of any kind are forbidden.

23 The elders of a congregation may choose to have more than one regular assembly during each week. If so, attendance by all members at all of these assemblies is required unless they are prevented from doing so due to illness, work, or some other good reason. Those who no longer attend any assembly on a regular basis shall be deemed as being unfaithful and shall eventually be disfellowshipped (this shall typically be comprised of declaring such in a worship assembly and in a letter sent to the person being disfellowshipped).

24 Women are allowed to teach other women or children. They may not teach male children who have been baptized. Women may speak aloud in any Bible class (while still recognizing the authority of the man), but not during the formal worship service (other than during the announcement period).

25 The business of each congregation shall be conducted by one of two methods: 1) a plurality of elders and deacons; or, 2) a men’s business meeting. The first is the preferred option, but it is not required if the congregation cannot find at least two men willing or able to fulfill the responsibility. Elders and deacons must fit the qualifications listed by Paul, the main difference being that elders have to have children who have been baptized, while deacons just have to have children. Those men who are needed to serve as deacons but do not technically fit the qualifications can still be used as long as their title is changed (“ministry leader”, etc.). Women may serve in an appropriate way but are not to be called deaconesses.

26 There shall be no organization of the church beyond that of the local congregation. However, conformity of beliefs can be maintained through brotherhood lectureships, publications, universities, etc.

27 Elders have authority only over the local congregation. However, there are some exceptions to this rule. An eldership can take upon itself (with approval by the other party or parties) the oversight of such things as congregations with few members considered to be in a mission area, church workers in mission areas, or other similar works deemed to be in need of the oversight of an eldership.

28 A plurality of congregations may combine money from their respective treasuries for the purpose of evangelistic efforts in another location. At no time, however, can this effort be conducted or organized in such a way as to be construed as a “missionary society”.

29 Divorced persons are to be a welcome part of the congregation. However, those divorced persons who wish to marry again, or those who have already been divorced and married again, must be investigated by the church (or its designee) in order to determine if their marriage (or pending marriage) has been preceded by a “Scriptural divorce” (that being one where the other person committed adultery either before or after the divorce). Those deemed to be in “unscriptural marriages” are expected to get a divorce in order to remain in good standing with God and the church.

30 All major doctrinal issues must be understood and taught without error. This includes (but not necessarily limited to): that we are not predestined to salvation, that it is possible for a Christian to lose his/her salvation, that speaking in tongues and other such miraculous gifts came to an end at the completion of the writing of the NT, that there will be no Rapture nor 1000 year reign of Christ, and that Heaven and Hell are literal. However, this requirement of perfect understanding shall not apply to the issue of the indwelling and operation of the Holy Spirit.

31 The preaching of these rules and correct doctrinal positions shall be deemed and denoted as “preaching the truth”. As noted above, people who do not understand these rules (and thus fail to follow them perfectly) shall be deemed as not truly loving God nor the truth.

32 These rules shall be observed without variation of any kind. Anyone who fails to know and follow these rules perfectly is deemed to be lost eternally unless he/she repents. The grace of God shall not be thought to be extended for any misunderstanding or noncompliance. However, moral imperfection (sin) shall be excused (covered by grace) provided the person regularly prays and asks for forgiveness.

33 Any group who fails to abide by these rules in their entirety is to be called a denomination. Anyone who attends a denomination is committing the sin of denominationalism.

In addition, the following are yet more rules that are not as frequently debated:

1. observing Christmas or other holidays
2. fruit of the vine must be fermented/not fermented
3. one cup vs. multiple cups
4. no kitchen or eating in the building
5. cannot give to non-Christians, orphan homes, etc.
6. non-baptized not allowed to read Scripture
7. no separated classes
8. Bible versions
9. taking of oaths
10. serving in the military
11. inflicting capital punishment
12. using force to defend oneself or others
13. serving as a government official
14. lifting hands while singing
15. joining a ministerial alliance
16. how God answers prayer
17. fasting
18. who selects and appoints elders
19. singing as the emblems are passed
20. use of church buildings for secular activities
21. building of fellowship halls, gymnasiums, etc.
22. use of an instrument in "church" weddings
23. youth directors, youth rallies, youth camps
24. the six days of creation being literal days
25. the operation of Christian hospitals
26. ministers of education, ministers of music, etc.
27. the baptismal "formula"
28. formal confession before baptism
29. dedicating babies
30. signing contribution pledge cards
31. women wearing shorts and slacks
32. women working outside the home
33. Children's Bible Hour
34. bussing children to services
35. degrees of reward and punishment
36. dress code for men serving the Lord's Supper

Does the word "legalistic" come to mind?

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Give me a break. The groups I have described may not "announce" it or keep a written "record" but they have their assumptions. They would never dare air them publicly.

Of course this is what you want to think; but now your reading peoples hearts for them and judging their thoughts - is this right? You want to make them look bad so you say they have their "secrets lists of who they privately condemn to hell" or whatever.

I bet that if a person is `faithfully attending' and `sound in doctrine' = `agree with what those allowed in the pulpit say you should believe,' then you assume that s/he is a Christian.

Allowed? You continue to imply that we are some type of dictatorship with evil hearts and hate anyone 'not in our group'.
First of all, any male christian may walk up to our preacher and request to give a sermon and that would never be denied of him - EVER. I've seen it in my own church; and as our bulletin announces = EVERY Member is a Minister.

If I am wrong, I would love to hear by description about someone who
a) is not a member of your group, but
b) is nonetheless a Christian.
No vagueness: I want specifics.

The church of Christ is no earthly organization with a list of 'members' and whoever is not attending to a church on the name 'church of Christ' is going to hell. We fellowship with and interact with many churches that going under simple descriptions such as 'Christians meet here' or 'The Church' but they all teach the same thing - Christ's doctrine.
Anyone who has followed the plan of Salvation and lives faithfully and strives to immitate Christ is a christian.

Now: imagine that I decide I want to join your group. I:
1) believe on Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Son of the living God, and accordingly have repented my prior sinful life,
2) confessed Him before men and women,
3) been baptized = immersed
4) live as best I can for Him.

When you were baptized you must be correctly baptized; as the Apostles did. Many now baptize you so you can join a denomination - but the Apostles baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)

Would your congregation accept me? I predict no. I predict that your leadership would not even announce my interest to the congregation. Why? `He is not a Christian, so is not eligible.'

'Accept' you? As a christian? No. But we definitely would announce your interest and ask you to stick around and fellowship and we'd also provide you with a bible study course if you were interested - I've seen this happened a hundred times as many traveling people come to our church because of our nice location.

The Church of Christ congregation I am a regular visitor at would not have accepted me now as a Christian just 18 years ago.

Why are you, or claim to be, a 'regular visitor' to a church you very much show dislike for?

If your portion of the Churches of Christ is not like what I described, I can assure you from first-hand experience that there are. One of them is just 35 minutes south of me.

Again, a true church founded by christ doesn't have to go under the name 'church of Christ' to be a congregation of christians.

You amaze me at how you have such little understanding of the churches of Christ and what we teach.

 

[LeBuick]

What, no raising of hands??? Does that mean you can't do that one finger thing when you walk out of service? Who thought of that anyway?

20 There shall be no clapping, raising of hands, or any other gesture or indecent or disorderly action during the worship service. However, a congregation is allowed to suspend this rule during special child-oriented services such as Vacation Bible Schools or Youth Rallies.

 

[TCGreek]

Does the word "legalistic" come to mind?

Yep, and they are even going beyond what is written, making their own rules.

What a pity!

 

[TCGreek]

My friend, is this an attempt to open up a topic to directly try to 'redicule' a particular church - because this is very sad and pathetic indeed.

Am I wrong about traditional churches of Christ?

If a church adds to the confirmed word (Galatians. 3:15; Mark 16:20) , goes beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6), and go outside Christ's doctrine (2 John 9).

Please take Scripture in context.

If a church would rather name themselves after a man[founder], man-made name, or something other than the name of the true church's founder (Matthew 16:18) and who bought it with his own blood (Acts 20:28) - hence we have the church of Christ.

What does Acts 20:28 have to do with a church name?

If a church doesn't follow in the Apostle's doctrine (Acts 2:42) and their example (Acts 20:7)

What did Luke say about the Sunday before and the Sunday after that particular Sunday?

Hah. Calling your preacher 'pastor' we've never condemned anyone for that - we just don't find that to be the correct name for the preacher.

Maybe your local coc has moved from that.

Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 is a command to every Christian - not just those who you think sound best or those who are 'more into it'. Every christian should be apart of the 'praise team'.

You're taking Scripture out of context. What about 1 Cor 14:26?

[quoteIf a church wants to deny Acts 2:38; Romans 6:2-11; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; ect; ect[/quote]

A church just needs to understand those texts properly in light of biblical soteriology.

If a church wants to deny that Christ is actually already reigning - Mathew 3:1-2; Mark 1:15; Matthew 6:9-10; Mark 9:1; Luke 10:9; Hebrews 12:28; John 18:36; ect.

No one is denying the reign of Christ now. You just need to let Scripture speak.

Revelation is a book of figurative language and uses symbolic terms to reveal its message to those informed - from an outsider it will look like a literal 1000; but it musn't be taken that way.

It seems like you're the only one informed about the Apocalypse.

You're making a sweeping generalization. That's a logical fallacy.

When one looses an argument, he often turns to insults to cover his defeat.

How have I insulted you?

 

[Darron Steele]

Why are you, or claim to be, a 'regular visitor' to a church you very much show dislike for?

First of all, I doubt that you would accept the Church of Christ I regularly visit to be a legitimate Church of Christ. They have an organ, a piano, and a guitar -- and they use them. Also, they believe that you can be a Christian without being a member of a Church of Christ congregation.

Second, criticism of real faults is not hatred. The Churches of Christ are plagued with real problems. More radical places, such as where you seem to be affiliated, are plagued with the most serious problems.

You seem to think that to `not hate' a church group, I would have to `bury my head in the sand' and refuse to accept that it has faults. That is not reality. Real love is shown by being willing to invest in someone or something even after you are aware s/he or it has faults.

You amaze me at how you have such little understanding of the churches of Christ and what we teach.

I would say I have pretty good understanding.

I predicted your responses. It was not hard for me; I was able to identify what type of Church of Christ person you were by how you posted.

I predicted that you would not acknowledge that I am a Christian because I do not agree `enough' with your group's non-explicit party lines. I also predicted that you would not want to be specific about any cases of someone being a Christian outside your group.

Oh, and as for the indoctrination which you called a "bible study course," I faced that too. It was not necessary -- I already knew the Bible abnormally well. There was just a lot of pressure to `understand it anew.'

I would say that after
1) 9 months in a radical "Church of Christ,"
2) over two years' exposure to radicals via other Internet boards,
3) several hundred pages of Restoration history from `across the board'
4) hundreds of pages of current belief/practice from `across the board'
5) 3 years regular involvement with other Churches of Christ
I know what I am talking about.

Certainly well enough to predict your responses quite accurately.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

A few years ago one of the members of BB visited a C of C and picked up one of their brochures defining their statement of faith. Here is what it stated:

I reject and deny this acclaimed brochure that you say was apparently picked up by a friend who was 'visiting' a church of Christ and I reject that this in any way represents or 'defines' our 'statement of faith'.

Again, all churches of Christ are not organized together to be a multiple congregations under one single leadership or earthly 'headquarters'.

This so-called 'brochure' cannot; in any way; represent the beliefs of every church of Christ or like-churches.

 

[DHK]

I reject and deny this acclaimed brochure that you say was apparently picked up by a friend who was 'visiting' a church of Christ and I reject that this in any way represents or 'defines' our 'statement of faith'.

Again, all churches of Christ are not organized together to be a multiple congregations under one single leadership or earthly 'headquarters'.

This so-called 'brochure' cannot; in any way; represent the beliefs of every church of Christ or like-churches.

As Darron pointed out Church of Christ churches vary a little from one to another. He also pointed out that from his own experience you belong to one of the more fanatical ones, just like the one described in the brochure. If you don't agree with it, what don't you agree with?

BTW, I am still awaiting an answer on the Instruments thread, that if you are consistent in what you say about "making melody in your heart then you would never be vocal at all. You admitted that your instrument was your heart. Consistently you must admit that all melody must be in the heart. If instruments are disallowed then vocal chords must be disallowed also. All must be "in the heart."

 

[defenderofthefaith]

As Darron pointed out Church of Christ churches vary a little from one to another. He also pointed out that from his own experience you belong to one of the more fanatical ones, just like the one described in the brochure. If you don't agree with it, what don't you agree with?

I don't agree with the fact that they have "rules" and/or "pattern" outside the Bible, even though most of the listed rules/pattern are found in the Bible.

Of course Darron wants to claim "experience" in the church of Christ and then claim that he "knows" I belong to "one of the more fanatical ones"; but all this is his opinion and from his posts he continues to show he has very little actual unbias experience in the church.

And to be completely honest with you DHK, I don't believe you or your friend actually picked this up at a church of Christ or if you did I don't believe this is an exact copy of what was picked up or if it is then I'm sure this 'church of Christ' is a very liberal one.

 

[MorganT]

I have a question for you defender of faith, do you or do you not believe that you can lose your salvation by sinning. YES or NO and explain.

 

[ccrobinson]

Of course Darron wants to claim "experience" in the church of Christ and then claim that he "knows" I belong to "one of the more fanatical ones"; but all this is his opinion and from his posts he continues to show he has very little actual unbias experience in the church.

And to be completely honest with you DHK, I don't believe you or your friend actually picked this up at a church of Christ or if you did I don't believe this is an exact copy of what was picked up or if it is then I'm sure this 'church of Christ' is a very liberal one.

Good tactic. When you have nothing else, imply that your opponents are lying. Nicely done.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

I have a question for you defender of faith, do you or do you not believe that you can lose your salvation by sinning. YES or NO and explain.

Yes.
The 'once saved, always saved' doctrine or 'eternal security' is in now way supported by the Bible.
Explained....

1 Corinthians 10:12 {KJV}
“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

(Why would Paul command this to the Church of Corinth (those saved) if it was impossible to fall?)

Hebrews 3:12 {KJV}
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

(Firstly, Paul calls them brethren and this implies that they are brothers in Christ (saved). Secondly, how could this heart of unbelief depart from God if it was never with God? Obviously the person was with God (saved) and then had a heart of unbelief and departed from the living God (lost).)

2 Peter 2:20-22 {KVJ}
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
- For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
- But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

(Perfect verse to prove that someone can “escape the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” and they are saved but then they are “again entangled therein, and overcome” by the pollutions of the world and the “latter end is worse with them than the beginning” – Peter is saying that it’d be better for someone to not even know the way to righteousness than for him to become saved and then “turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them” and become “again entangled therein and overcome”!!)
1.) They had escaped the defilements of the world, 2.) They were again entangled therein and overcome, 3.) The last state is worse than the first.
How could the last state (AFTER they were saved) be worse than the first (BEFORE they were saved)? Obviously a once saved Christian can so sin to be in a worse state than before they were saved.

John 15:2-6 {KJV}
“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
- Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
- Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
- I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
- If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

(“Every branch in me” and “ye are the branches” – this shows that saved Christians are the branches because it says “in me” so your IN Christ. So those branches that are in Christ (saved) and “beareth not fruit” “he taketh away” but what happens then? “Men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”!! But if every branch (Christian) that is in Christ is “once saved always saved” why does he take the branches that do not bear fruit and cast them into the fire and burn them??)

Matthew 13:41-42 {KJV}
“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

(The Son of man (Jesus Christ) will send forth his angels and gather “them which do iniquity” “out of his kingdom” – how do you get into Christ’s kingdom? You are saved by his blood! But not only will these saved Christians that do iniquity be gathered out of his kingdom but he will also “cast them into a furnace of fire” where “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” – does that sound like heaven to you?)

1 Timothy 4:1 {KJV}
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;”

(This verse contradicts the belief that you can’t leave the faith and the argument that once you are saved, you no longer want to sin. It clearly says that “some shall depart from the faith” but to be in the faith you must be saved! So you depart from the faith because they were “giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils” – but wait! I thought once you were saved you no longer would give heed to sins and temptations?)

1 Timothy 5:12-13 {KJV}
“Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.”

(Having DAMNATION, because they have cast off their first faith! What a statement!! But again, they cast of their faith – but according to “once saved, always saved” you still have salvation even if you cast off your faith, but Paul says they have damnation for casting off their first faith!”)

Galatians 5:4 {KJV}
“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

("Ye are fallen from grace" implies that they once were IN grace (saved) and to argue against that is to say that they fell from something they were never in (which is impossible). So they were in grace (saved), tried to justify themselves by the law and by doing this they fell from grace (lost).)

Revelation 22:19 {KJV}
“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”
(Revelation 20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.)

(Rev. 20:15 says that if you were not found written in the book of life you are cast into the lake of fire (hell) so in order not to be cast into hell you must be written in the book of life and to be written into the book of life you must be saved - BUT if you "take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall away his part out of the book of life" therefore you are lost and no longer found written in the book. It's all simple logic and the verses explain themselves.)

Luke 8:13 {KJV}
“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away”

("Recieve the word (the gospel) with joy" (saved) and "for a while believe" but then "in time of temptation fall away" (lost).)


Clearly, the Bible supports that one can lose his Salvation by sinning.

 

[Marcia]

Here's the catch, "My final authority is Scripture" implies "As I see or Interpret Scripture". This almost takes us back to square one. Scripture is almost always interpreted to support a person's worldview instead of scripture used to shape or determine one's worldview. We see it here in subjects like Abortion, Church Discipline, etc... How do so many Christians use the same Scripture to support opposing sides? Interpretation...

Also, the KKK used Scripture to support their positions and we now see g@y Episcopal clergy finding support in Scripture. This means "My final authority is Scripture" leaves a world of views on the table. Most likely, none are God's.

There's a difference between using Scripture and misusing Scripture, or using Scripture out of context. The Mormons also "use Scripture," but when you go the context, it's easy to see how they are misusing it. Same for the KKK to support their views, and same for the Episcopal clergy. All these false views can be refuted.

 

[DHK]

I don't believe this is an exact copy of what was picked up or if it is then I'm sure this 'church of Christ' is a very liberal one.

Not only unbelief,
But unbelievable! If this church is liberal, then what is a conservative one like??

 

[Marcia]

When you were baptized you must be correctly baptized; as the Apostles did. Many now baptize you so you can join a denomination - but the Apostles baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)

DoF, Have you ever done a word study of the Greek word translated as "for" here?

It can mean "because of." Be baptized because you have remission of sins. Since we know Scripture does not contradict itself, and other Scripture is clear that we can be saved before baptism, we know this is not saying that one must be baptized in order to have remission of sins.

As an example, when one says “Take two aspirin for your headache,” it is obvious to everybody that it does not mean “take two aspirin in order to get your headache,” but instead to “take two aspirin because you already have a headache.” There are three possible meanings of the word “for” that might fit the context of Acts 2:38: 1--“in order to be, become, get, have, keep, etc.,” 2—“because of, as the result of,” or 3—“with regard to.” Since any one of the three meanings could fit the context of this passage, additional study is required in order to determine which one is correct.

We need to start by looking back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word eis. This is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament) that is translated many different ways. Like the English word “for” it can have several different meanings. So, again, we see at least two or three possible meanings of the passage, one that would seem to support that baptism is required for salvation and others that would not. While both the meanings of the Greek word eis are seen in different passages of Scripture, such noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition eis in Acts 2:38 should be translated “because of” or “in view of,” and not “in order to,” or “for the purpose of.”

One example of how this preposition is used in other Scriptures is seen in Matthew 12:41 where the word eis communicates the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word eis). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins (John 1:12; John 3:14-18; John 5:24; John 11:25-26; Acts 10:43; Acts 13:39; Acts 16:31; Acts 26:18; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 1:12-14). This interpretation of the passage is also consistent with the message recorded in Peter’s next two sermons to unbelievers where he associates the forgiveness of sins with the act of repentance and faith in Christ without even mentioning baptism (Acts 3:17-26; Acts 4:8-12).
<More in this article>

Source
http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Acts-2-38.html

I think you would find this article of interest.

 

[LeBuick]

There's a difference between using Scripture and misusing Scripture, or using Scripture out of context. The Mormons also "use Scripture," but when you go the context, it's easy to see how they are misusing it. Same for the KKK to support their views, and same for the Episcopal clergy. All these false views can be refuted.

But that's the whole point of this thread... Someone can say scripture supports no instruments in Church. However, when I read the 150 PS I don't see how one can't be encouraged to praise the Lord using any instrument or method the Spirit places on your heart... This includes dance or waving your hands in the air of that's what you feel lead to do... Now someone will come along and interpret this scripture to say I'm wrong (refute). So refuted or not, it is still someone's biblical view...

Ps 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

 

[EdSutton]

Not only unbelief,
But unbelievable! If this church is liberal, then what is a conservative one like??

I had almost word for word, the exact same thought, earlier.

I just hadn't gotten around to posting it, yet.

Ed