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Evolution and common genetics

UTEOTW

New Member
Well, there have been several partially successful attempts to hijack this thread. I am now going to return to the original subject. Perhaps we can hear some of those alternate explanations for the real data being presented or perhaps we will continue to see a demonstration of the inability of YE to deal with actual data instead of strawmen and misrepresentations.

In my last on topic post [ http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3200/2.html#000019 ] I gave some information about one way in which the genome shows evidence of evolution having actually occurred, how that example gives an example of a mechanism of ways in which the genome evolves and how that example is a problem for a YE paradigm.

I want to spend a few moments further on background for that example and then give another case of the same process.

First off, there was a mention of retroposons. These are segments of DNA which have the ability to copy themselves around the genome. They are sort of like little viruses.

The example discussed a particular retroposons called an Alu. An Alu is a sequence which is copied around primate genomes extensively. The one estimate I remember is that just this one sequence has over 500,000 copies in the human genome. (Just when did that happen in a young earth?) Alu sequences can provide genetic diversity because when they insert themselves, they change the DNA sequence in that location. Hold that thought for a moment.

Genes are generally broken into pieces called exons which must be spliced together to make the actual gene. As it turns out, a given exon can be spliced into more than one gene. Some genes even use just part of a particular exon. So by using a process of alternative splicing or of exon shuffling, new genes can be created simply by alternating which exons are joined together and this can be done without affecting other genes.

Back to the Alu. As it turns out, it is not hard to mutate part of the Alu sequence into the three letter code that signals the end of an exon. So when an Alu sequence is copied into an area of DNA and mutates, it can provide a new exon. This exon can then be alternatively spliced with other exons potentially resulting in a new gene. That is just what happened in the example above.

Here is a different paper that talks about alternative splicing. In this specific case, alternative splicing leads to a variety of genes. In this case, 23 exons form 14 different isoforms. Included here is a variation in the splicing where new sequences are produced by alternatively including or excluding section of DNA from within a given exon as mentioned above. It also provides another method of generating novelty by including expressions of Alu, LINE and MER repeats very similar to the expressed Alu sequence in the previous post.

BACKGROUND:
Sodium bicarbonate cotransporter (NBC) genes encode proteins that execute coupled Na+ and HCO3- transport across epithelial cell membranes. We report the discovery, characterization, and genomic context of a novel human NBC-like gene, SLC4A9, on chromosome 5q31.

RESULTS:
SLC4A9 was initially discovered by genomic sequence annotation and further characterized by sequencing of long-insert cDNA library clones. The predicted protein of 990 amino acids has 12 transmembrane domains and high sequence similarity to other NBCs. The 23-exon gene has 14 known mRNA isoforms. In three regions, mRNA sequence variation is generated by the inclusion or exclusion of portions of an exon. Noncoding SLC4A9 cDNAs were recovered multiple times from different libraries. The 3' untranslated region is fragmented into six alternatively spliced exons and contains expressed Alu, LINE and MER repeats. SLC4A9 has two alternative stop codons and six polyadenylation sites. Its expression is largely restricted to the kidney. In silico approaches were used to characterize two additional novel SLC4A genes and to place SLC4A9 within the context of multiple paralogous gene clusters containing members of the epidermal growth factor (EGF), ankyrin (ANK) and fibroblast growth factor (FGF) families. Seven human EGF-SLC4A-ANK-FGF clusters were found.

CONCLUSION:
The novel sodium bicarbonate cotransporter-like gene SLC4A9 demonstrates abundant alternative mRNA processing. It belongs to a growing class of functionally diverse genes characterized by inefficient highly variable splicing. The evolutionary history of the EGF-SLC4A-ANK-FGF gene clusters involves multiple rounds of duplication, apparently followed by large insertions and deletions at paralogous loci and genome-wide gene shuffling.
Lipovich L, Lynch ED, Lee MK, King MC., A novel sodium bicarbonate cotransporter-like gene in an ancient duplicated region: SLC4A9 at 5q31, Genome Biol. 2001;2(4)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11305939&query_hl=1
 

UTEOTW

New Member
I also want to return to some of the actual genetic methods that can be used to trace ancestry to highlight the lack of a YE response to the specific types of data that are available.

The subject I wish to explore here is chimeric retrogenes. They happen to be functional but they arise in a specific way that allows them to be used to trace evolutionary family trees.

The basics are that mRNA is turned into cDNA through reverse transcription. This sequence is then permantently integrated into the genome by endogenous integration proteins.

The evolution of the primates and apes can then be traced by when specific sequences were integrated into the genomes of the various common ancestors.

When looking at this 12 specific chimeric retrogenes, you get the following chart.
http://nar.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/31/15/4385/GKG496F3

The distribution of the various genes in the various primates and apes, including humans, matches that which would be predicted through other techniques. That this technique matches that as done by other genetic, molecular and fossil methods is a very powerful combination of factors that strongly indicate the descent of humans from a common ancestor with the other apes.

"The human genome contains many types of chimeric retrogenes generated through in vivo RNA recombination," Anton Buzdin*, Elena Gogvadze, Elena Kovalskaya, Pavel Volchkov, Svetlana Ustyugova, Anna Illarionova, Alexey Fushan, Tatiana Vinogradova and Eugene Sverdlov, Nucleic Acids Research, 2003, Vol. 31, No. 15 4385-4390.
http://nar.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/31/15/4385

The problem that arises for YE is that it does not matter what kind of genetic data that you examine, they all contain patterns that are only explainable by common descent. This is just one example of one kind of data. The amazing thing is how all of the different techniques continue to give the same answers. There is no better explanation than common descent. Just pay attention to the lack of an alternate theory and how one would test it to differentiate it from common descent.

And in the same vein, the details of the genomes give very strong evidence of having been made by the evolutionary mechanisms that are being proposed. No explanation will be proposed that can be tested to explain the details of the genes that show that they are the product of evolution.
 

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
OK let's get back to genetics, as in human and chimp. 98% similarity? One interesting thing about these numbers, they are not based upon the entire genome. There are many regions (some very significant) where a large portion of one of the human chromosomes is not found in the chimp genome. But, rather than counting such areas as differences, they are ignored. Clearly, doing so makes the percent similarity more than it really is. Including such regions may reduce the percent similarity to closer to 90%.

Another thing is that while similar segments of DNA can be found in chimp and human chromosomes, the DNA found on a specific human chromosome is often scattered among several of the chimp genomes. Not very consistent with common descent, I wouldn't think.

Note: the information in this post was provided by a geneticist.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Could you provide references so we can know specifically what you are talking about?

And could we get those elusive alternate explanations to the observations that have been presented?
 

Petrel

New Member
Originally posted by Helen:
Another thing is that while similar segments of DNA can be found in chimp and human chromosomes, the DNA found on a specific human chromosome is often scattered among several of the chimp genomes. Not very consistent with common descent, I wouldn't think.
Actually, this is consistent with chromosome remodelling, which JWI has so kindly given us evidence for.
 

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
Yup, the evolutionist grab-bag has an answer for everything. Thus, there is NO evidence they cannot accomodate one way or another and thus NO evidence they will accept as being evidence of a special, recent creation.

Evolution from bacteria to bear, the way all the excuses run, is absolutely unfalsifiable, and therefore not science at all, but a belief system.
 

Petrel

New Member
You know, Helen, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it really might be a duck!

I'll go ahead and provide a paragraph from a very interesting book I'm reading.

The most frequent types of chromosomal change detected in primate evolution are inversions (especially pericentric, see Haaf and Bray-Ward, 1996), changes in the amount and localization of heterochromatin, fusions and fissions, and changes in the location of centromeres due to activation/inactivation. Reciprocal translocations, deletions and insertions are much less frequent. Human chromosome 18 differs from the homologous chromosomes in the great apes by a a pericentric inversion and it is thought that one inversion breakpoint may have been located at or within the centromere (McConkey, 1997). Pericentric inversion breakpoints have also been identified on the chimpanzee equivalents of human chromosomes 4 (4p14, 4q21), 9 (9q22), and 12 (12p12 and 12q15) and these appear to coincide with the locations of either fragile sites or tumor-associated breakpoints (Nickerson and Nelson, 1998). Pericentric inversions may have played an important role in establishing reproductive isolation and speciation during the evolution of higher primates.
Human Gene Evolution, David N. Cooper. Academic Press, Inc.; San Diego, CA. 1999, p. 72.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
[sarcasm]What was that, Petrel?

That looks like a quote from some sort of authority that backs up your assertion while showing that another's assertion was groundless. There even seems to be some sort of text there at the end that would allow one to verify what you say by looking it up for themselves and reading it.[/sarcasm]

"Yup, the evolutionist grab-bag has an answer for everything. "

Pretty much. It is good when your theory describes reality well. It is good when the most surprising findings merely teach you something you did not know about your theory without requiring you to ditch it.

"Evolution from bacteria to bear, the way all the excuses run, is absolutely unfalsifiable, and therefore not science at all, but a belief system."

Absolutely false.

Just this thread provides a small sampling of the actual data on which it is based. So no faith required. It is very good science.

And plenty of ways to falsify evolution have been proposed. No one has yet provided such evidence.

But it would be nice if YEers would stick their neck out with testible, falsifiable ideas which attempt to provide alternate explanations to the rich set of observations on which evolution is based.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Another morning, time for another genetic example for which YE has no theory to propose.

This time I will stick with the first subject, using genetics to trace relationships between the species. I also wish to cut the common designer assertion off by sticking with non-coding DNA. Surely an intelligent designer would not feel the need to fill the genomes of perfect creations with "junk." And although some often point out that some use has been found for some junk, much of the junk really is just that. And you will see that this study includes some of those things which are just junk.

I want to look at pseudogenes and other bits of DNA can be used to trace the evolutionary history of apes. For this paper, they used "53 autosomal intergenic nonrepetitive DNA segments from the human genome and sequenced them in a human, a chimpanzee, a gorilla, and an orangutan." These segments included "Y-linked noncoding regions, pseudogenes, autosomal intergenic regions, X-linked noncoding regions, synonymous sites, introns, and nonsynonymous sites."

When all the various sequences are considered as togther, they "supports the Homo-Pan clade with a 100% bootstrap value." This is pretty clear evidence of the shared common ancestor for humans and chimpanzees.

So, at least for this one analysis, the common ancestor of the chimps and humans is almost certain.

"Genomic divergences between humans and other hominoids and the effective population size of the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees," Chen FC, Li WH, American Journal Human Genetics, 2001 Feb;68(2):444-56.
 

Phillip

<b>Moderator</b>
Let us assume that my Maltese Terrier has the same DNA that I do with the exception of one molecular structure.

That certainly doesn't change my opinion of my relationship with my dog.

Genetic Code is probably the closest thing we have to an embedded code from the designer. (Of course, who knows what else we will find in the future that has not even been identified yet.)

It is just like a microcontroller. I change a few lines and I can use it to fly a Cruise Missile into downtown Bagdad. I can change a few more lines and use it to control the anti-lock brakes and save the life of your kids on a wet road. ---certainlly doesn't make the two a result of either design, but it does tell me the designer was probably the same entity.

My point is, you can rattle numbers and data all day long, but it is not making a point---unless your conclusion has already been made.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
"Let us assume that my Maltese Terrier has the same DNA that I do with the exception of one molecular structure."

You can assume it but it is not true.

"My point is, you can rattle numbers and data all day long, but it is not making a point---unless your conclusion has already been made. "

We are just looking for an alternate explanation that describes the actual details of the observations. Common descent handles the details extremely well. The genome is just what one would expect given common descent.

If you have an alternate explanation, there are many specific details presented here. Pick one, tell us how to explain it, tell us why you would expect things to be that way, tell us how your ideas can be differentiated from common descent and tell us how to test your theory.

These types of genetic studies are being done all the time and are good tests of evolution. So far, the results are in agreement with theory.

Only one conclusion is supported by observation. You make that point by talking about unrelated topics like cruise missles instead of the actual data.
 

Paul of Eugene

New Member
Originally posted by Phillip:

My point is, you can rattle numbers and data all day long, but it is not making a point---unless your conclusion has already been made.
Hmmm. The more correct formulation for your statement would be, you can rattle numbers and data all day long and make your point . . . unless the listner has already made up his conclusion and is proof against all evidence.
 

Phillip

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by UTEOTW:
"Let us assume that my Maltese Terrier has the same DNA that I do with the exception of one molecular structure."

You can assume it but it is not true.

"My point is, you can rattle numbers and data all day long, but it is not making a point---unless your conclusion has already been made. "

We are just looking for an alternate explanation that describes the actual details of the observations. Common descent handles the details extremely well. The genome is just what one would expect given common descent.

If you have an alternate explanation, there are many specific details presented here. Pick one, tell us how to explain it, tell us why you would expect things to be that way, tell us how your ideas can be differentiated from common descent and tell us how to test your theory.

These types of genetic studies are being done all the time and are good tests of evolution. So far, the results are in agreement with theory.

Only one conclusion is supported by observation. You make that point by talking about unrelated topics like cruise missles instead of the actual data.
Well, I can guarantee you one thing---there will NEVER be an animal that will evolve to the intelligence of a human who can build a cruise missile. But, of course, we would have to wait three billion years to find out....wouldn't we?
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Helen:
OK let's get back to genetics, as in human and chimp. 98% similarity? One interesting thing about these numbers, they are not based upon the entire genome. There are many regions (some very significant) where a large portion of one of the human chromosomes is not found in the chimp genome. But, rather than counting such areas as differences, they are ignored. Clearly, doing so makes the percent similarity more than it really is. Including such regions may reduce the percent similarity to closer to 90%.

Another thing is that while similar segments of DNA can be found in chimp and human chromosomes, the DNA found on a specific human chromosome is often scattered among several of the chimp genomes. Not very consistent with common descent, I wouldn't think.

Note: the information in this post was provided by a geneticist.
Actually Helen the recent estimates lower the figure well below 90% to an approximate 86.7 percent genetic similarity to the chimp (1).

But of course we are 35 percent similar to the daffodil (2), and few would suggest that that makes us one-third narcissus.

Notes for UTE,
(1) Tatsuya Anzai et al., “Comparative Sequencing of Human and Chimpanzee MHC Class 1 Regions Unveils Insertions/Deletions as the Major Path to Genome Divergence,” Procedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 100 (2003):7708-7713.

(2) Jonathan Marks, What it means to be 98% Chimpansee: Apes, People, and their Genes (Berkeley: University of California Press, 2002), 29.

Rob
 

El_Guero

New Member
Rob

The fact that one theory is attested to by man and the other theory was attested to by God has little significance to those that refuse to believe God.

Wayne
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by El_Guero:
Rob

The fact that one theory is attested to by man and the other theory was attested to by God has little significance to those that refuse to believe God.

Wayne
I agree that YEC is attested to by man, but I wouldn't say that proponents refuse to believe God.
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Wayne, you are confusing a THEORY proposed by Young-earth creationist and the revelation given by God.

God's Word is inerrent.

Our theories regarding its proper interpretation are not inerrant.

Rob
 
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