Grace is God bestowing unmerited favor on people. We most frequently think of it in relation to salvation but out can involve lots of things like healing, economic blessings, children, etc.
No.
There is nothing we can do to earn it.
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Exalting the view of man
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Grace is God bestowing unmerited favor on people. We most frequently think of it in relation to salvation but out can involve lots of things like healing, economic blessings, children, etc.
No.
There is nothing we can do to earn it.
Grace is not given to all without exception but it is offered to all without exception.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Thank you, In the Light, for your answers. (On a separate note, I see you reside in Minneapolis. My daughter lives in Eden Prairie. You've got quite a Mall there! Unreal!)
Re: subject at hand......agreed God is gracious to all in many different ways. But let's address grace in relation to salvation.
Can you give scriptural proofs for your first definition....'unmerited favor'? I think it of utmost importance that you and I find our support in Scripture alone.
Please give Scripture to support your second axiom......'grace not given to all.'
Finally, please give scriptural support to prove your third axiom.....'there is nothing we can do to earn it.'
Please know that I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. I simply wish to use only Scripture as the foundation of our Christian belief system.
God bless you, In the Light!
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Thank you, Reverend, for your valuable input. I would greatly appreciate you citing Scripture to support your view.
May I respectfully ask, are you an advocate of a doctrine known as Prevenient Grace?
I don't think there is any particular verse that defines it in such terms.
There are numerous phrases , "may the grace of God be with you" throughout scripture. It stands to reason that it's not given to all.
We know that salvation is by grace through faith and we know that salvation cannot be earned, therefore grace cannot be earned. Also grace is given by God so it can't be earned.
Some concepts are not explicitly expressed in scripture and must be inferred.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Thank you, In the Light, for your respectful and forthright replies to my questions!
Re: Unmerited Favor......How about this verse: “ For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”…..as but one example.
Death (temporal and eternal) is what all have earned and deserve, but the gift of God (which is His undeserved favor/blessing) is eternal life (which is salvation) in Christ Jesus.
If the gift of God is salvation, and by grace are we saved, then we can conclude grace is also the gift of God…..unmerited, unearned, undeserved favor.
So we agree as to the fact that the grace which pertains to salvation is not earned, but given freely by God as a gift.
Furthermore, you have indicated that the grace which pertains to salvation is not given to all. You cite the example of Paul’s epistles which were written specifically to Christians, not heathens. On this we can concur also.
At this point I must ask: How does the Lord decide to whom He will give grace
pertaining to salvation, since it is not earned by works? (Please cite Scripture if possible.)
I next must ask, what is the purpose of this grace, i.e., what does it accomplish? (Please cite Scripture if possible.)
So far, In the Light, we are in agreement on all points!
And yes, I agree we are allowed to use logical deductions when interpreting Scripture……for is not Christ the LOGOS, the LOGIC of God?
Looking forward to continued dialogue. Blessings to you, In the Light!
According to the pleasure of his good will. Eph. 1:5-8
God has a master plan. He loves us, wants us to be redeemed, forgiven, and saved. Ultimately this plan will culminate in all things in Heaven and earth being united. Eph. 1:9-10.
Protestant said:
God has shown the grace that brings salvation to ALL men.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
This verse says only that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared or has been shown to all men, but it does not say this grace is given to all men. Grace is accessed through faith and given only to the humble.
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
The grace being spoken of here is salvation, as verse 1 says we are justified by faith. So, the grace is being forgiven or justified our sins, and this grace is accessed through faith.
The scriptures also say God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
Pro 3:34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.
Coming to Jesus in faith is an act of humility. It is confessing that one is a sinner that cannot save himself and casting one's self on Jesus and depending on him, and him alone to save you. Jesus has promised that any man who comes to him for salvation shall not be cast out (John 6:37)
A perfect example of this is the parable of the Pharisee and the publican;
Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Jesus spoke this parable to those who were proud and believed they were righteous.
The Pharisee was proud and believed he could merit salvation through his own good works.
The publican was humble, he made no boast whatsoever, but confessed he was sinner and cast himself completely on God's mercy. He believed God was loving and merciful, this is faith.
Jesus said the publican went down to his house justified, this is to be saved from one's sin. This is the model that is shown to us in scripture.
Grace is available to all, but God only gives grace to the humble who come to him in faith.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Once again, In the Light, we agree. Scripture teaches this truth in many such verses.
OK. This section needs to be broken down for my edification. First, let me say I do not disagree with the general scope of your summation. But first, I must point out that my original question dealt with the efficacy of the saving grace which is bestowed as a gift upon those whom God has elected by His own free will. In other words, does this grace have the power to save all to whom it is given, or does it require something on the part of man in order to be effective to salvation?
Re: your summation of Eph. 1:9-10.......by saying 'He loves us' are you referring to the Elect to whom He gives this grace, or are you including all mankind?
Also, by stating God 'wants' I assume you also mean God 'wills' us to be redeemed, forgiven and saved. By saying 'us' are you referring to the Elect to whom He gives this grace, or are you including all mankind?
Lastly, you state, 'this plan will culminate in all things in Heaven and earth being united.' Are you saying the non-elect as well as the Elect will be united?
Again, I really appreciate your taking the time to respond respectfully to my sincere questions! Blessings in Christ, In the Light!
RevMitchell said it quite succinctly--"Grace is not given to all without exception but it is offered to all without exception".
Salvation is totally accomplished by God. Man's part in it is to receive the gift of salvation. (John 1:12, , Rom. 10:9-10). , There are exceptions. I believe John the Baptist was one (Luke 1:15). Paul was another (Acts 9:15). And probably Mary (Luke 1:28-30.). God had special plans for these people and elected them with irresistible grace.
In this instance the 'us' is the elect, but God loves everyone. Again, all mankind is offered grace, not all are given it.
I mean God wants us to be saved (2 Pet. 2:9, 1 Tim. 2:4.) The elect are recipients of grace. You could also say that God gives grace to the elect, but because of man's perception of time being linear it doesn't make much sense to state it that way.
Let me ask you a question--your inquiries are leading somewhere, why not just cut to the chase and tell me what's on your mind?
Salvation is totally accomplished by God. Man's part in it is to receive the gift of salvation. (John 1:12, , Rom. 10:9-10). , There are exceptions. I believe John the Baptist was one (Luke 1:15). Paul was another (Acts 9:15). And probably Mary (Luke 1:28-30.). God had special plans for these people and elected them with irresistible grace.
In this instance the 'us' is the elect, but God loves everyone. Again, all mankind is offered grace, not all are given it.
I mean God wants us to be saved (2 Pet. 2:9, 1 Tim. 2:4.) The elect are recipients of grace. You could also say that God gives grace to the elect, but because of man's perception of time being linear it doesn't make much sense to state it that way.
No, the unbelievers, or if you like, the non-elect, will suffer eternal separation from God in Hell. God's plan will culminate in all things in Heaven and Earth being united (Eph. 1:9-10, Col. 1:20) Don't ask me to give details on the mechanics of what this means because I don't know!
Let me ask you a question--your inquiries are leading somewhere, why not just cut to the chase and tell me what's on your mind?
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Hello Winman. Thanks for joining the conversation! I see you and I have a few things in common: CT and guitars…..I have lived in CT and played guitar in a band which recorded on the Decca label. :>))
Re: ‘ALL men’……..we can dispel the thought that by ‘all men’ the Holy Spirit was signifying every human ever born. The majority of the world had not heard of Christ until relatively recent history when missionaries were able to access the New World, as well as the far reaches of the globe. In the context of the epistle, the ‘all men’ refers to all sorts of people…..even the Cretans who were liars, evil beasts and lazy gluttons.
Re: ‘grace given only to the humble’……..In chapter 3 of Titus, Paul explains that before we were regenerated by the Holy Spirit we were all far from humble. Instead he paints a brutal portrait of our character: foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. In sum: not one shred of humility. HOWEVER…..
When the kindness and love of God appeared to us, He did not take into consideration how sweet natured, caring, submissive, humble, repentant, holy or righteous we were --- because we were none of these! Instead He took pity upon us, saving us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior [who purchased our redemption as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit and all spiritual gifts necessary for salvation, including good works. (Titus 3:4-6; Romans 8:32; Eph. 1:3; Eph. 2:8-10.)
Once born of the Spirit man now has a new nature…..one which is capable of obedience, ready for every good work, speaking evil of no one, peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. (Titus 3:1-2)
If you will notice in Titus 3:7, Paul states we were ‘justified by grace.’ But in Romans 5:1, for example, Paul’s theology seems a bit different: “Therefore, having been justified by faith….” But in actuality there is no difference. This is because faith is the unmerited gracious gift of God to man, not man’s gracious gift to God. (Eph. 2:8-9) If faith came by grace, then we are also justified by that same grace.
Faith is the miraculous holy creation of God in men who are incapable of creating that which does not exist.
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” (2 Cor. 5:17)
Please note verse 18:”Now all things are of God….” Included in the ‘all things’ is our faith.
Blessings in Christ Jesus to you, Winman!
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Hello, In the Light. Once again thanks for your thoughtful responses!
Re: ‘grace is offered to all without exception.......' Of course, you are speaking of recent history where great inroads had been made via missionaries and the printing press. The vast majority of the world had been without any knowledge of Christ, the only name under heaven by which we must be saved. So, you don’t really mean all people ever born, do you? Those who have never heard the name of Christ are certainly the exception. That being the case, with all due respect to the Reverend and yourself, his axiom is false……unless you and the Reverend believe as does Billy Graham – that salvation is possible through acknowledging God in nature, without believing in Christ.
Re: ‘God loves the Elect’…..Amen. However, your next statement, ‘God loves everyone’ I have proven to be false. Please read my two treatises, “Problems Inherent in God’s ‘Love’ For All”, Parts 1 and 2. If you find any errors in it, please communicate them to me.
In the Light, as I understand it thus far, you believe Scripture teaches the universal offer of the grace of God in Jesus Christ, but in order for it to be effectual, man must first do something to receive this gift, i.e., believe the Gospel. Once man has believed the Gospel he is then elected to salvation whereby he is regenerated and placed in the Body of Christ.
Is that a fair assessment?
Blessings in Christ Jesus, In the Light!
Well, I played in lots of bands, but can't say I recorded on any labels, though I have been in the studio a few times.
Well, that's not what it says. It does not say everyone has heard of Jesus, it says the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men. What is important is that this grace is available to all men.
I would disagree, and notice you did not actually show this scripture. It always helps to show the scripture you are claiming supports your view so others can see for themselves if you are applying scripture properly. I personally do not see any scripture in Titus 3 that says all men are never humble. Yes, all men are proud at times, I am sure the publican was proud at times, but when he came to the Lord for forgiveness he was humble. Likewise, any man CAN humble himself if he chooses to do so.
2 Chr 34:27 Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the LORD.
As you can see, men are able to humble themselves before God.
I beg to differ, God does take it into consideration when a man humbles himself before him, as God plainly says, and as I have plainly shown in the case of Josiah.
I agree with this, but a man can humble himself before regeneration, this is what is shown in the parable of the publican. No man can be regenerated or spiritually alive while he is still in his sins. It was only after the publican humbly came for forgiveness that Jesus said he went down to his house justified. Only when his sins were forgiven could he be spiritually alive. You cannot be dead in sins and spiritually alive at the same moment, that is a contradiction that is impossible.
No, they are the same. To trust in Jesus is to humble one's self and come in utter dependence upon him to forgive their sins.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The scriptures do not say a person has to be regenerated to believe in Jesus, they say they must hear of Jesus.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Here is the only place in scripture where it is asked HOW shall a man believe in Jesus. Does Paul ask how a man can believe unless he is regenerated? NO, and he NEVER says that anywhere in scripture. Paul simply implies a man must HEAR of Jesus to believe. This is supported by Paul's next question, when he asks and HOW shall they hear without a preacher? Does Paul say or imply a person must be regenerated to have the ability to hear the word of God? NO, and Paul NEVER says that anywhere in all of scripture. No, Paul simply implies that a preacher must go and preach the word of God, and this is all that is necessary to enable a man to believe in Jesus.
You cannot show any scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to hear or have faith. Such scripture does not exist.
Well, it doesn't say that. You can't simply make scripture say what you want it to say.
Thanks.
So far you have been asking what I believe, now it appears you are telling me.
Yeah....I'll get right on that...
Repentance is necessary, but your description is close enough.
Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 20:31
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
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Protestant
Well-Known Member
So you believe that grace is offered to those who never heard of Christ? I am confused and sincerely wish to be informed as to how all men without exception is to be interpreted.
Then you believe God loves those in Hell?
Please review John 3:36 which you cite below. It does not teach that God loves the unbeliever, rather it teaches his unloving wrath abides on that person. The verb 'abides' indicates continuous, non-stop action. At no time can it be said that God loved that person for all are born children of wrath. (Eph. 2:3)
I will respond to this in my next post.
Thanks, again, In the Light, for sharing your views!
Judgment has been passed on those people. They do not have an opportunity to believe the gospel.
John 3:36 does not say that God's wrath rests on living people, it says it rests on those that have rejected the Son. They "shall not see life" is the operative phrase. In other words they shall not see eternal life in Heaven. In God's eyes, which criss-crosses our puny interpretation of time, He knows who will be condemned, thus in His eyes, "they are condemned already" (John 3:18)
Eph. 2:3 does not say that God has unloving wrath on people, it says that they were born children of wrath, or born with a sin nature.
God does love sinners. If he didn't why would he draw them to salvation? What motivates God to bestow his saving grace on people if not love?
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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Protestant
Well-Known Member
Thanks, again, In the Light, for your respectful replies!
With all due respect, my question was not, Has judgment passed on those people? Rather, it was, Does God love those in Hell?
Also, you have neglected to explain how "grace is offered to all without exception", when, in fact, knowledge of the Messiah was revealed only to Israel in the OT.
If God's wrath rests on the dead, would you agree that He does not love them? Unless, of course, you believe it is a loving wrath that punishes sinners eternally....in which case it would be consistent to say, yes, He loves them.
Yes. I agree Scripture teaches the inherited sin nature in all babies. However, Paul was saying something much stronger. He was denying that the love of God was upon all babies. Rather due to their inherent sin nature God's inherent holy nature requires all sinners be under His wrath and condemnation. That wrath abides on babies through adulthood and death, should they not repent and believe the Gospel.
Amen! That is not the question, however. Rather, since you stated earlier that 'God loves everyone,' how is that possible when the Gospel was hidden from most of the world until recent centuries? It is by faith in Jesus and His finished work that one has eternal life.
Amen. Love is the motivating factor! However, the Bible teaches the love of God for certain, specific, particular persons. In the OT that truth was reflected in the love God had for Israel above all nations. In the NT that truth is reflected in the prayers and atonement achieved by Jesus Christ. Please study John 17. God's love in Christ did not fail. All whom the Father gave Christ, He saves. He loses none. Christ has glorified the Father. Translation: He did not fail in any aspect of His mission for which He was sent to earth. Christ has given and will continue to give eternal life to His sheep, the Elect, chosen by the Father.
Please do not disregard the two treatises I have written to explain, biblically, the impossibility for God's love to fail. Part 2 is located below this thread. Part 1 may be found in Other Christian Denominations, page 3....."Problems Inherent in God's 'Love' For All." To reject a position without reading it displays a closed mind....which I pray you do not have. I will always answer any objections to the treatises you may have.
For God to fail to save one sinner whom He willed (by eternal decree to save) is no God. In fact, He is not to be trusted.
My position advocates for the God who is infinite perfection, who cannot fail to accomplish His will, who has no fault or defect in Him....and whose love cannot fail.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Nothing is amiss. I simply viewed your profile page under my log in name: Protestant.
What's your guitar of choice? I owned a Fender Jazzmaster and a Martin D-18. I have since sold them.
Well, it does not show your name as it shows others. But that's ok.
I have owned many guitars, at present I own a Gibson Les Paul and SG, 2 Fender Stratocasters, a Telecaster, two Squier 51's and a Squier Tele, and a Danelectro U2. I recently gave a Epiphone Casino to my pastor, I gave him an Ovation Balladeer as well, he needed a good guitar.
The only acoustic I have at present is a very old Sigma D4, a good copy of a Martin. It plays and sounds like the real deal.
I have a couple of Marshall and Fender amps and an old Premier Twin 8.
I've got boxes full of pedals, a complete PA system, and recording equipment as well. I have been trying to get rid of stuff, that is why I have given things away, not because I am nice. :laugh:
Here's some Army kid playing a Danelectro U2, some say he was pretty good.
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