Exalting the view of man

[Protestant]

Well, that's not what it says. It does not say everyone has heard of Jesus, it says the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men. What is important is that this grace is available to all men.

Please help me understand your view. How exactly is grace available to those millions (billions?) who have never heard of the Messiah who was to come or the Messiah who has come. I honestly wish to know how this is possible since grace is inextricably linked to faith, and without faith in Christ the wrath of God abides on the unbeliever who shall not see life. (Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:36)

I would disagree, and notice you did not actually show this scripture. It always helps to show the scripture you are claiming supports your view so others can see for themselves if you are applying scripture properly.

I will be most happy to re-post the Scriptures:

"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:3-5 KJV)

Paul is painting a portrait of himself and all others before regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Please make an important observation......Paul emphasizes there was nothing in us or him which moved God to save us. Not our humility, not our faithful church attendance, not our random acts of kindness, not our guitar playing.......instead He chose to save us according to His mercy alone.

"I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy."

The Scripture does not read, "I will have mercy upon whom I decide has enough humility to be worthy of my mercy."

God the Father's decision was not contingent upon anything in man for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All men are equally lost and enemies of God.

If humility played a part in the Father's decision to elect us to salvation, then Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul 2, and Mahatma Ghandi would definitely be candidates for salvation. Unfortunately for them Scripture clearly declares idolators will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I personally do not see any scripture in Titus 3 that says all men are never humble. Yes, all men are proud at times, I am sure the publican was proud at times, but when he came to the Lord for forgiveness he was humble. Likewise, any man CAN humble himself if he chooses to do so.

In our fallen, finite view we are certain there is some good in man which is pleasing to God. However, from God's holy infinite perspective, "without faith it is impossible to please God", "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

The humility of the famous named above proves nothing to our Lord. But to the world it proves they are super religious people who have the ear and heart of God.

2 Chr 34:27 Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the LORD.

As you can see, men are able to humble themselves before God.

Would you not agree that repentance is a valid form of humbling oneself?
If men are able to humble themselves without the grace of God as you insinuate in the rest of your post, then why on earth did the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, declare,

"in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will." (2 Timothy 2:25)

By their own will and energy, sinful man has not the power of repentance unto life. That power is a gift from God granted to those upon whom He has purposed to have mercy.

"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." (Hebrews 12:16-17)

Did you seek Christ with tears, repentance and much sorrow for your sins?
Did you believe on Jesus the Son of the Living God?
Were you made a new creation, old things passing away, all things are now made new?
Have you lost your life, picked your cross and followed Jesus?

If so, then you have no one to thank but God the Father for choosing to have mercy upon you, Jesus Christ for paying your sin debt by His efficacious blood sacrifice on your personal behalf, and the Holy Spirit for regenerating you, creating faith in you, giving you the fruit of the Spirit, good works, love of the brethren, sanctifying you and preserving you until the day of Christ Jesus.

"For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

Blessings in Christ Jesus, Winman!

 

[Protestant]

Well, it does not show your name as it shows others. But that's ok.

I have owned many guitars, at present I own a Gibson Les Paul and SG, 2 Fender Stratocasters, a Telecaster, two Squier 51's and a Squier Tele, and a Danelectro U2. I recently gave a Epiphone Casino to my pastor, I gave him an Ovation Balladeer as well, he needed a good guitar.

The only acoustic I have at present is a very old Sigma D4, a good copy of a Martin. It plays and sounds like the real deal.

I have a couple of Marshall and Fender amps and an old Premier Twin 8.

I've got boxes full of pedals, a complete PA system, and recording equipment as well. I have been trying to get rid of stuff, that is why I have given things away, not because I am nice. :laugh:

Here's some Army kid playing a Danelectro U2, some say he was pretty good.

You definitely sound like a serious player with all that equipment! I played rythymn (about as well as Elvis) and wrote the material for the band. Our lead guitarist and bass players were both from the New Haven area. At one time I owned a huge VOX amp. Talk about overkill! :>))

You might wonder how a rock and roll musician found Jesus.....I didn't....He found me, and turned my heart to Him. I owe it all to Him....His love.....His power.....His will.

 

[Winman]

Please help me understand your view. How exactly is grace available to those millions (billions?) who have never heard of the Messiah who was to come or the Messiah who has come. I honestly wish to know how this is possible since grace is inextricably linked to faith, and without faith in Christ the wrath of God abides on the unbeliever who shall not see life. (Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:36)

Well, I believe God is fair and only holds a person accountable for what they know. To those whom much is revealed, much is expected, to those to whom little was revealed, less is expected.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Adam and Eve did not seem to know much about Jesus, they had a very simple promise in Gen 3:15;

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

As far as we know, this might be all Adam and Eve knew about Jesus, that God would send someone from the seed of the woman to bruise the head of the seed of the serpent. I believe scripture shows they believed this simple promise, Eve seemed to have believed this promise was fulfilled in Cain;

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Eve was mistaken, but she believed Cain was this promised savior. It is certain that they were saved, because God clothed them in skins representing the righteousness imputed to those that believe. This righteousness imputed to men is often represented by a coat or robe as in the story of the prodigal son.

I will be most happy to re-post the Scriptures:

"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:3-5 KJV)

Paul is painting a portrait of himself and all others before regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Please make an important observation......Paul emphasizes there was nothing in us or him which moved God to save us. Not our humility, not our faithful church attendance, not our random acts of kindness, not our guitar playing.......instead He chose to save us according to His mercy alone.

Again, this does not say men are NEVER humble. This is where Calvinism reads into scripture what is not there. For example, Calvinists love to quote Rom 3:10-12

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Calvinists will say these verses prove INABILITY. They do no such thing, Calvinists read that into this scripture.

If I were to say, "None of my neighbors ever goes to church, no, not one" would you interpret that to mean they are unable to go to church? NO, and no reasonable person would make such an assumption. Just because they never go to church does not mean they are unable to go. But that is exactly what Calvinists do with this scripture, read inability into it when it is not there. It does not say men are unable to do good, it does not say men are unable to seek God, it just says that they don't.

"I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy."

The Scripture does not read, "I will have mercy upon whom I decide has enough humility to be worthy of my mercy."

Yes, but God says he gives grace to the humble, that is said several times in scripture.

Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

If God wants to give grace to the humble, who are you to tell him what he can do or not?

God the Father's decision was not contingent upon anything in man for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All men are equally lost and enemies of God.

You are assuming Unconditional Election is true. I do not agree, I believe God chooses those who humble themselves and trust in Jesus. I believe salvation is conditional.

If humility played a part in the Father's decision to elect us to salvation, then Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul 2, and Mahatma Ghandi would definitely be candidates for salvation. Unfortunately for them Scripture clearly declares idolators will not inherit the kingdom of God.

God doesn't elect someone because they are humble, he elects them because they trust in Christ. However, it takes humility to trust in Christ. Surely you are smart enough to know the difference. Ghandi might very well have been a humble man, but unless you trust in Christ you will be lost. Nevertheless, you must be humble to admit you are a lost sinner and trust in Christ.

This is not that difficult, think about it a bit.

In our fallen, finite view we are certain there is some good in man which is pleasing to God. However, from God's holy infinite perspective, "without faith it is impossible to please God", "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

The humility of the famous named above proves nothing to our Lord. But to the world it proves they are super religious people who have the ear and heart of God.

Again, God does not save men because they are humble, God saves those who submit to him and trust in his Son Jesus, but you must be humble to submit to God and trust in Jesus. Not a difficult concept unless you simply don't want to understand.

Would you not agree that repentance is a valid form of humbling oneself?
If men are able to humble themselves without the grace of God as you insinuate in the rest of your post, then why on earth did the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, declare,

"in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will." (2 Timothy 2:25)

Men are able to repent, Judas repented, but he did not trust in Christ and was not saved.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Judas repented, and even confessed he had sinned, but he failed to trust Jesus to forgive his sins and was lost.

By their own will and energy, sinful man has not the power of repentance unto life. That power is a gift from God granted to those upon whom He has purposed to have mercy.

And the scripture I just showed you refutes your view. Judas was able to repent and truly be sorry for his sin, but he did not trust Jesus to save him and so was lost. But he could repent, the scriptures say he did so.

"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." (Hebrews 12:16-17)

This is not saying Esau could not repent, Esau did repent, but it was too late, the birthright had been given to Jacob.

Did you seek Christ with tears, repentance and much sorrow for your sins?
Did you believe on Jesus the Son of the Living God?
Were you made a new creation, old things passing away, all things are now made new?
Have you lost your life, picked your cross and followed Jesus?

Have you?

If so, then you have no one to thank but God the Father for choosing to have mercy upon you, Jesus Christ for paying your sin debt by His efficacious blood sacrifice on your personal behalf, and the Holy Spirit for regenerating you, creating faith in you, giving you the fruit of the Spirit, good works, love of the brethren, sanctifying you and preserving you until the day of Christ Jesus.

"For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

Blessings in Christ Jesus, Winman!

Of course I am glad he had mercy on me, and I am glad that God will have mercy on any man that trusts in Christ.

If your view is correct, you have no idea if you are elect or not. Oh, you can tell me all day long you know you are elect, but I know better. If Jesus does not love every person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, then you have NO IDEA if you are elect or not.

Now, I don't have to worry about whether I am elect, because I believe Jesus died for all men, and that Jesus will not cast out any man who comes to him.

You on the other hand have something to worry about.

 

[Protestant]

Well, I believe God is fair and only holds a person accountable for what they know. To those whom much is revealed, much is expected, to those to whom little was revealed, less is expected..

Good day, Winman. I am back from vacation. I appreciate very much your patience as well as your detailed reply!

Re: "God is fair." The hue and cry sounded against the teaching of the Apostle Paul in Romans 9:14ff is that which insists God is NOT FAIR in Election.....electing one in preference to another without any human quality being the deciding factor.

The thrust of your argument centers on something man has done, which then earns him God's favor. God is pleased by man's obedience.......be it belief, repentance, humility, etc., etc......and, as a result, chooses to save that man.

That, from a human vantage point is 'fair.'

But Paul does not teach such things.

Rather, he teaches the controversial, yet pure, truth of saving grace.

Before Winman was born; before Winman heard of Jesus; before Winman went to church; before Winman made a decision for Christ; before Winman was baptized; before Winman did good works in the name of Jesus.......God made a decision to have mercy on Winman. God took pity on Winman and sent Christ to do that which Winman would not (and as a result) could not do: obey God.

Obedience displays love, (John 14:21). Yet you were born a son of disobedience.....a hater of the holy true God.

It was by the grace of God that you were regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3), freely given, by the same Spirit, the power to believe the truth (2Thess. 2:13), repentance unto life (Acts 11:18) -- as opposed to the repentance of Judas -- good works (Eph. 2:8-10); as well as all other gifts necessary to salvation. (Eph. 4:7ff; Romans 8:32).

If the Lord loves everybody equally, giving grace to everybody equally, as 'fairness' would require, then how is it Winman has satisfied the conditions of salvation, while others have not?

According to your theology, YOU are the ultimate reason why you are saved while others are lost. YOU made the difference.

Based upon what you did with your free will, God then elected you, while reprobating those who did not make good use of their free will.

However, that being the case, then Election becomes a matter of Justice....giving to each what they rightly deserve.

But the opposite is true. Election is according to grace.....justice has no bearing on God's choice of whom He will have mercy. It is according to the sole good pleasure of His will. (Eph. 1:9,11)

This powerful divine truth is what truly humbles a Christian.

It is my prayer that you, too, Winman, will humbly admit every good and perfect gift which you possess, including the faith to believe, is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights.

For of His own will --- not your will --- he begat you with the word of truth, that you should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:17-18)

Blessings in Christ Jesus, Winman!

 

[Winman]

Good day, Winman. I am back from vacation. I appreciate very much your patience as well as your detailed reply!

Re: "God is fair." The hue and cry sounded against the teaching of the Apostle Paul in Romans 9:14ff is that which insists God is NOT FAIR in Election.....electing one in preference to another without any human quality being the deciding factor.

Actually, Romans 9:14 asks if there is unrighteousness with God;

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

This verse does not ask if God is fair, it asks if God is unrighteous.

The thrust of your argument centers on something man has done, which then earns him God's favor. God is pleased by man's obedience.......be it belief, repentance, humility, etc., etc......and, as a result, chooses to save that man.

Salvation is conditional, the scriptures repeatedly say man must believe to be saved. That is something man must do.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

It doesn't get any more plain than this, the Philipian jailer asked Paul and Silas, "What must I DO to be saved?". Did Paul and Silas tell him that he cannot do anything to be saved? Did they tell him he must wait and hope that God regenerates him? NO, Paul and Silas told him he must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. That is conditional.

You can tell me all day that a man cannot do anything to be saved, and I will tell you that a man must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved as Paul and Silas told the Philipian jailer. I don't care what your Reformed teachers tell you, I trust what the Bible says.

That, from a human vantage point is 'fair.'

God is the one who determines what a man must do to be saved. God has determined that a man must submit to God and trust in his Son Jesus Christ to be saved. That is all there is to it.

But Paul does not teach such things.

I beg to differ, Paul absolutely teaches that a man must do something to be saved, he must believe on Jesus Christ.

Rather, he teaches the controversial, yet pure, truth of saving grace.

I agree, but we access this grace through faith.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Calvinism falsely teaches that a man is given faith by grace. The scriptures teach we have access into God's grace by faith. You must believe to receive God's grace.

Before Winman was born; before Winman heard of Jesus; before Winman went to church; before Winman made a decision for Christ; before Winman was baptized; before Winman did good works in the name of Jesus.......God made a decision to have mercy on Winman. God took pity on Winman and sent Christ to do that which Winman would not (and as a result) could not do: obey God.

I disagree. I believe God in his foreknowledge knew I would hear the gospel and believe, and so chose me according to foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2).

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Election is not unconditional, it is based or according to God's foreknowledge, God chooses a person according to something he knows beforehand. I believe that is faith, the scriptures clearly show God knows who will believe and who will not believe.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

The scriptures say Jesus knew "from the beginning" who would believe not. Then by simple process of elimination he also knew from the beginning who would believe. This is foreknowledge, and we are elect according to foreknowledge.

Obedience displays love, (John 14:21). Yet you were born a son of disobedience.....a hater of the holy true God.

Yes, but I was enlightened and convicted by the preaching of God's word that enabled me to believe (Rom 10:14).

It was by the grace of God that you were regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3), freely given, by the same Spirit, the power to believe the truth (2Thess. 2:13), repentance unto life (Acts 11:18) -- as opposed to the repentance of Judas -- good works (Eph. 2:8-10); as well as all other gifts necessary to salvation. (Eph. 4:7ff; Romans 8:32).

No man can possibly be regenerated until his sins are forgiven, and no man is forgiven or justified until he first believes. Until you believe you will die in your sins.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus said unless a person believes they will die in their sins, so it is impossible to be regenerated or spiritually alive until you first believe. Calvinism teaches an utter falsehood.

If the Lord loves everybody equally, giving grace to everybody equally, as 'fairness' would require, then how is it Winman has satisfied the conditions of salvation, while others have not?

Other chose not to believe. Some men love their sin more than God's grace. Why do some men drink until they lose everything while others give it up? Because some men love getting drunk more than their family or job, while other men love their family and job more than drinking and give it up.

According to your theology, YOU are the ultimate reason why you are saved while others are lost. YOU made the difference.

Pure baloney, if God had not revealed Jesus to me and had not convicted me of my sins, I would have died and gone to hell. I owe my salvation completely to the grace of God.

Based upon what you did with your free will, God then elected you, while reprobating those who did not make good use of their free will.

Correct, but those persons could have believed if they had chosen to.

However, that being the case, then Election becomes a matter of Justice....giving to each what they rightly deserve.

False, I didn't deserve mercy, but I accepted God's mercy.

But the opposite is true. Election is according to grace.....justice has no bearing on God's choice of whom He will have mercy. It is according to the sole good pleasure of His will. (Eph. 1:9,11)

Exactly.

This powerful divine truth is what truly humbles a Christian.

Exactly.

It is my prayer that you, too, Winman, will humbly admit every good and perfect gift which you possess, including the faith to believe, is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights.

I do confess that.

For of His own will --- not your will --- he begat you with the word of truth, that you should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:17-18)

Blessings in Christ Jesus, Winman!

Agreed, but God does not force his grace and mercy on anyone. God beseeches men to be reconciled to him, that means he literally begs us to be saved and made right with him, but he will not force us.

2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Paul says they were ambassadors for Jesus, as though God did beseech or beg to us by them, they prayed in Jesus's behalf, be reconciled to God.

This verse makes absolutely no sense whatsoever if your doctrine is true (it isn't). If God irresistibly regenerates whomsoever he has elected, there is no need whatsoever to beg any person to be reconciled to God.

Your doctrine does not square up with scripture whatsoever.

 

[Protestant]

Hello there, Winman! Lots of good stuff in your latest reply. I will respond in a few replies.

Winman wrote: “Well, I believe God is fair and only holds a person accountable for what they know. To those whom much is revealed, much is expected, to those to whom little was revealed, less is expected.”
-----------------------------
By saying “God is fair” you are saying God is righteous, just, holy, not a respecter of persons. These are all synonymous terms. Please check a Thesaurus.
------------------------------------
Winman wrote: "Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
----------------------------
The citation from Luke speaks of God’s final judgment on false Christians. Please look at the context. Condemnation will be commensurate with the evil committed.
Winman, you still have not answered my original question:

Please help me understand your view. How exactly is grace available to those millions (billions?) who have never heard of the Messiah who was to come or the Messiah who has come. I honestly wish to know how this is possible since grace is inextricably linked to faith, and without faith in Christ the wrath of God abides on the unbeliever who shall not see life. (Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:36)

Are you saying that those who never heard of Christ are given another Gospel - other than the Gospel Paul preached? The Gospel of nature perhaps? If that be the case, how is God fair, righteous, just and holy by allowing Christ to preach that He alone is the way to the Father. If there is another way, God and Christ are liars.
-----------------------------
Winman wrote: “If Jesus does not love every person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, then you have NO IDEA if you are elect or not.”
-------------------------
If Jesus does love every person, then He loved them yesterday, today and forever. Do you believe Jesus loves those who inhabit Hell?

If Jesus did die for every person, then He took the punishment due every person. Do you believe there are people in Hell for whom Christ died? If so, then Christ’s death was a supreme failure, since his mission was to save His people from their sins. (Matt. 1:21). Furthermore, God the Father would be unjust and unrighteous demanding two payments for man’s sin debt: one from Christ and another from the sinner.

If Christ did die for every person, yet did not pay the complete sin debt of every person, then His death was no atonement. Nor was reconciliation made between God and man. Yet Scripture states:

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:18)

If Christ did die for every person, yet did not pay the complete sin debt of every person, then we are not justified by His blood….contrary to Romans 5:9:

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

I look forward to your responses!

 

[Protestant]

Actually, Romans 9:14 asks if there is unrighteousness with God;

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

This verse does not ask if God is fair, it asks if God is unrighteous.

--------------------------
A synonym for ‘unrighteous’ is 'not fair.' Please check your Thesaurus.

You believe God to be 'fair'…..meaning 'righteous.' Do you agree with Paul in this context that God is righteous? Many others in his congregation think Paul’s doctrine teaches an unrighteous God.

The subject is Election: God’s free choice of certain sinful humans for salvation before they were born......in fact, from eternity, before creation.

Jacob and Esau are prototypes of all mankind. Paul uses them to teach us the nature of saving grace.

The Lord willfully chose Jacob over Isaac, though there were absolutely no differences between them.

Both were from the same father’s seed and the same mother’s womb.

Both were sinners descended from Adam.

Neither believed on Christ who was to come. They were not yet born, so they couldn’t prove their disposition for or against Christ.

Neither had committed any untoward sins which would perhaps taint God’s opinion of them, resulting in reprobation.

Yet the Lord chose one over the other based on nothing but His own will, His own good pleasure.

In you view, Winman, is that fair and righteous? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[Winman]

--------------------------
A synonym for ‘unrighteous’ is 'not fair.' Please check your Thesaurus.

You believe God to be 'fair'…..meaning 'righteous.' Do you agree with Paul in this context that God is righteous? Many others in his congregation think Paul’s doctrine teaches an unrighteous God.

The subject is Election: God’s free choice of certain sinful humans for salvation before they were born......in fact, from eternity, before creation.

Jacob and Esau are prototypes of all mankind. Paul uses them to teach us the nature of saving grace.

The Lord willfully chose Jacob over Isaac, though there were absolutely no differences between them.

Then you do not know your Bible. Jacob had faith, he believed the promises made to Isaac his father, and that is why he desired the birthright. Esau did not have faith, he despised his birthright and sold it for a bowl of pottage and lentils.

Gen 25:31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

Both were from the same father’s seed and the same mother’s womb.

Both were sinners descended from Adam.

Neither believed on Christ who was to come. They were not yet born, so they couldn’t prove their disposition for or against Christ.

You did not pay attention to my last post, election is according to God's foreknowledge. God knew Jacob would have faith and that Esau would not, so he elected Jacob.

Neither had committed any untoward sins which would perhaps taint God’s opinion of them, resulting in reprobation.

Yet the Lord chose one over the other based on nothing but His own will, His own good pleasure.

You don't get it, we are not chosen because of works, that is why it did not matter if they had done either good or evil. But faith does matter, it is impossible to please God without faith, therefore faith pleases God.

God in his foreknowledge knew Jacob would believe and this is why he chose Jacob over Esau. Not because of works, but according to calling. When the scriptures speak of calling, it is speaking of faith.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Election is not of works, but "of him that calleth". Read Hebrews 11;

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

God called Abraham, and Abraham obeyed by faith, and looked for a city. Jacob also believed this promise to his father Abraham and wanted this promise. Esau did not believe. This is why God chose Jacob.

In you view, Winman, is that fair and righteous? If so, why? If not, why not?

I think it us perfectly fair to reward Jacob and punish Esau. Jacob believed, Esau did not.

 

[Protestant]

Salvation is conditional, the scriptures repeatedly say man must believe to be saved. That is something man must do.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

It doesn't get any more plain than this, the Philipian jailer asked Paul and Silas, "What must I DO to be saved?". Did Paul and Silas tell him that he cannot do anything to be saved? Did they tell him he must wait and hope that God regenerates him? NO, Paul and Silas told him he must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. That is conditional.

You can tell me all day that a man cannot do anything to be saved, and I will tell you that a man must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved as Paul and Silas told the Philipian jailer. I don't care what your Reformed teachers tell you, I trust what the Bible says.

God is the one who determines what a man must do to be saved. God has determined that a man must submit to God and trust in his Son Jesus Christ to be saved. That is all there is to it.

I beg to differ, Paul absolutely teaches that a man must do something to be saved, he must believe on Jesus Christ.

I agree, but we access this grace through faith.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Calvinism falsely teaches that a man is given faith by grace. The scriptures teach we have access into God's grace by faith. You must believe to receive God's grace.

Yes, the Gospel identifies the condition of salvation. It is a command to repent and believe on Christ.

It is a command man will not fulfill, unless he is born of the Spirit. By nature man is enmity with the Lord. (Romans 8:7). He is blind to the Kingdom of God and to the King, Jesus. (John 3:3) Even worse, man is spiritually dead in his sins. (Eph. 2:5)

Therefore, God has determined to save dead, blind, hateful sinners by grace. Those whom He has determined to save are called the Elect. He chose them by His most free will and good pleasure….before they were born, before they accepted or rejected Christ. (Eph. 1:5, 11)

By grace He saves them, through faith, and that not of themselves. It is His gracious gift to them, lest any should boast, claiming they had something to do with receiving either His grace or the faith which He graciously bestowed upon them.
To be continued…………….

 

[Protestant]

Hey Winman....when you have time please respond to my post # 126.

Thanks and blessings in Christ to you!

 

[Winman]

Hello there, Winman! Lots of good stuff in your latest reply. I will respond in a few replies.

Winman wrote: “Well, I believe God is fair and only holds a person accountable for what they know. To those whom much is revealed, much is expected, to those to whom little was revealed, less is expected.”

And I showed you scripture that showed this very thing.

By saying “God is fair” you are saying God is righteous, just, holy, not a respecter of persons. These are all synonymous terms. Please check a Thesaurus.

I already know what fair means, I do not need to consult a Thesaurus. But Romans 9 did not ask if God is fair, it asked if there is unrighteousness with God. Unrighteousness and fairness are not necessarily the same thing, to tell a lie is unrighteous, but it has nothing to do with fairness.

Winman wrote: "Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”

No, those are Jesus's words, not mine.

The citation from Luke speaks of God’s final judgment on false Christians. Please look at the context. Condemnation will be commensurate with the evil committed.

Both will be beaten, but those who had knowledge of God's will will be beaten with many stripes, those who did not have knowledge will be beaten with few stripes. This shows God holds men accountable for what they know. The more you know, the more accountable you are, the less you know, the less accountable you are.

Winman, you still have not answered my original question:

Sure I have.

Please help me understand your view. How exactly is grace available to those millions (billions?) who have never heard of the Messiah who was to come or the Messiah who has come. I honestly wish to know how this is possible since grace is inextricably linked to faith, and without faith in Christ the wrath of God abides on the unbeliever who shall not see life. (Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:36)

No one knows for a certainty how God will deal with those who have never heard the gospel. I could as easily put the question to you. You ASSUME that they are damned, when you know no such thing for a certainty, you are assuming that Calvinism is correct and that these persons are not the elect. That is all ASSUMPTION on your part, you do not have a single verse of scripture to support this.

Anything I would say would be speculation, but I believe God's knows men's hearts, and knows those that seek him, those that have faith in him, though they may not be perfectly sound in doctrine. But this is speculation.

Asking a question your opponent cannot answer does not prove you are correct. This is a favorite tactic of Calvinists, but it is a form of false argument.

Are you saying that those who never heard of Christ are given another Gospel - other than the Gospel Paul preached? The Gospel of nature perhaps? If that be the case, how is God fair, righteous, just and holy by allowing Christ to preach that He alone is the way to the Father. If there is another way, God and Christ are liars.

I am saying that I don't know for a certainty. But because I don't know does not prove they are lost. That is your assumption. I make no such assumption.

Winman wrote: “If Jesus does not love every person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, then you have NO IDEA if you are elect or not.”

That is simple logic.

If Jesus does love every person, then He loved them yesterday, today and forever. Do you believe Jesus loves those who inhabit Hell?

Very clever argument, but easily shown to be false. Weren't you by nature a child of wrath before you were saved? Didn't God hate you yesterday before you were saved? So according to your use of this scripture, God therefore will hate you forever.

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

If Jesus did die for every person, then He took the punishment due every person. Do you believe there are people in Hell for whom Christ died? If so, then Christ’s death was a supreme failure, since his mission was to save His people from their sins. (Matt. 1:21). Furthermore, God the Father would be unjust and unrighteous demanding two payments for man’s sin debt: one from Christ and another from the sinner.

Yes, there are people in hell for whom Jesus died, because they did not access God's grace by faith.

Jesus compared his Spirit to living water. Suppose you were dying of thirst and I gave you a big glass of cold water that would save you. Will that big glass of water help you if you fail to drink it? This is how God's grace is, it is offered to every man, but a man must drink it by faith for it to profit them.

Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus doesn't force this living water down your throat, he offers it freely to every man. But you must willingly drink this water for it to give you life.

If Christ did die for every person, yet did not pay the complete sin debt of every person, then His death was no atonement. Nor was reconciliation made between God and man. Yet Scripture states:

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:18)

Well, this verse is speaking of believers who have received the atonement. I could buy a ticket to the Super Bowl for you, it is all paid for. But if you refuse to accept it, it will not do you any good. That doesn't mean I didn't buy and pay for it.

If Christ did die for every person, yet did not pay the complete sin debt of every person, then we are not justified by His blood….contrary to Romans 5:9:

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

I look forward to your responses!

You have to accept what Jesus did for you. Again, it would be like me buying a car for you and offering it to you as a gift. If you accept it, all well and good. But perhaps you are a proud man who refuses to accept what he considers "charity" from others. You could refuse to accept this free gift.

Does that mean I didn't spend the money to buy the car? Nonsense.

 

[Protestant]

You did not pay attention to my last post, election is according to God's foreknowledge. God knew Jacob would have faith and that Esau would not, so he elected Jacob.........I think it us perfectly fair to reward Jacob and punish Esau. Jacob believed, Esau did not.

I understood your previous post well! Let me understand you rightly......God needed to look into the future to see that Jacob would resurrect himself from spiritual death, then create, by himself, the miracle of faith which is spiritual and did not exist, and then, based on what Jacob did......i.e., turned from sin to the true God and believed.....God then elected Jacob.

If that exegesis of Romans 9:9-15 is correct -- God foreknew/foresaw Jacob's faith and elected him on that basis:

(1) Why isn't Paul's argument based on that assumption? Instead, he makes the clear and substantial point that God's choice had nothing to do with knowing beforehand Jacob would believe, while Esau would not. Your argument of foreknowledge also uses works as the means of election and reprobation: the selling and buying of a birthright.

(2) Why then is there a cry of "God is unrighteous" which Paul cites in verse 14?
As you so ably stated, it is fair, just and righteous to reward Jacob who believed as well as punish Esau eternally for his unbelief. So why does Paul admit that the doctrine of election causes his congregation to insist it is heresy because by it God is conceived to be unrighteous, unjust, and unfair?

 

[Winman]

I understood your previous post well! Let me understand you rightly......God needed to look into the future to see that Jacob would resurrect himself from spiritual death, then create, by himself, the miracle of faith which is spiritual and did not exist, and then, based on what Jacob did......i.e., turned from sin to the true God and believed.....God then elected Jacob.

I don't think God "needs" anything, but God knows who will believe and who will not from the beginning.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

The scripture says Jesus knew "from the beginning" who believed not. Therefore, by simple process of elimination he also knows who will believe from the beginning. This is foreknowledge, to know something beforehand, and scripture says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father.

No man can resurrect himself, it is only Jesus that can give life.

Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Only Jesus can give a man life, but Jesus has promised to give life to every man that believes on him.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. God provides the word of God, but it is man that must do the hearing.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


Jesus said "the dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live. Jesus did not say a man must first be made alive to hear. No, Jesus showed that spirtually dead men can hear his voice, and if that dead man will hear him, he shall be made alive.

You know if the dead cannot hear Jesus, then you are also saying Jesus does not have the ability to speak to the dead.

If that exegesis of Romans 9:9-15 is correct -- God foreknew/foresaw Jacob's faith and elected him on that basis:

God knew Jacob would answer the call. The call was to Abraham his grandfather, but it was promised to his descendants. Jacob believed this promise and desired the birthright. This is why God chose Jacob over Esau, not because of any good works. Jacob was not that nice of a fella, he was a deceiver, but he believed in God.

(1) Why isn't Paul's argument based on that assumption? Instead, he makes the clear and substantial point that God's choice had nothing to do with knowing beforehand Jacob would believe, while Esau would not. Your argument of foreknowledge also uses works as the means of election and reprobation: the selling and buying of a birthright.

No, it says the choice was not made on "works". Therefore it was based on faith. Faith is always contrasted to works in scripture.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Calvinism falsely teaches that faith is a work. That is total nonsense, the scriptures say that to him that works not, but believes, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith cannot possibly be a work, it is contrasted to works.

(2) Why then is there a cry of "God is unrighteous" which Paul cites in verse 14?
As you so ably stated, it is fair, just and righteous to reward Jacob who believed as well as punish Esau eternally for his unbelief. So why does Paul admit that the doctrine of election causes his congregation to insist it is heresy because by it God is conceived to be unrighteous, unjust, and unfair?

Paul had just told them God chose Jacob over Esau not because of any good or evil they had done. This would offend a Jew because they thought a person had to merit salvation through good works.

No, God accepted Jacob by faith. This seems unrighteous to a Jew who believes you must merit salvation.

But Paul answers that God shall have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he has chosen to have mercy on those who place faith in his son Jesus.

 

[Protestant]

I believe salvation is conditional.

To be a consistent Arminian you must believe in continued free will and that you have no assurance of your salvation until the day you die…..at which point you will discover if you have attained or failed to persevere in all the conditions.

Again, this does not say men are NEVER humble. This is where Calvinism reads into scripture what is not there. For example, Calvinists love to quote Rom 3:10-12

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Calvinists will say these verses prove INABILITY. They do no such thing, Calvinists read that into this scripture.

On the contrary, these verses teach the lack of man’s will or desire to seek, obey, worship and love the true God……proving all men are by nature enemies of God, doing only evil continually.

If I were to say, "None of my neighbors ever goes to church, no, not one" would you interpret that to mean they are unable to go to church?

No, I would interpret it to mean their free will decision and choice was against church attendance. They had the legs to walk to church. They lacked the will power to do so.

it takes humility to trust in Christ.

No. It takes the supernatural gracious miracle of God to trust and love the One whom we had previously hated.

If Jesus does not love every person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, then you have NO IDEA if you are elect or not.

Jesus does not love every person. Please read below:

Some years ago an anti-cal book was published, What Love Is This?
I respond in kind, “what ‘love’, indeed, is this?”

Consider the response of Jesus in Matt. 7:23: “I never knew you.”
Imagine. The omniscient, all-wise God-man will one day in condemnation declare to many professing Christians that at no time, not ever, did He know them. That horrible truth would necessitate the fact of eternally not knowing them. He did not know them on the Last Day, neither did He foreknow them from eternity, nor anytime in between. He never knew them. How can that be?

According to the non-cals, God loves every person ever born. (John 3:16) God loves the sinner, yet hates the sin. Given that basic premise, one would logically conclude that:

(a) It is impossible the Lord did not know the false Christians because they were born of the flesh due only to His eternal will and decree.

(b) If the Lord loves every person ever born, then certainly the Lord knows those He loves. Loving someone infers personal knowledge.

(c) Therefore, “I never knew you” must not be interpreted literally.

So how should one rightly interpret this mysterious verse?

Can “I never knew you” be interpreted to mean “I never loved you?”

“28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30)

“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.” (John 10:14)

“Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his…..” (2 Timothy 2:19a)

To ‘foreknow’ indicates knowledge from eternity. Those whom the Lord ‘foreknows’ He predestinates to glory where the foreknown will spend eternity with Him.

Those same persons ‘foreknown’ are those ‘known’ as His sheep. The Lord has always known who His people are.

“The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11b)

“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13)

Those whom Christ knew as His sheep (both from eternity and in time) are those same ones whom He loved and for whom He died a loving, sacrificial death.

Therefore, we must conclude that those false Christians to whom Christ was addressing in Matt. 7 were never at anytime foreknown to be predestined to glory, nor were they known as His sheep, nor did He lovingly die for them.

If this be the case, then it is impossible He loved them in the past, present or future, since love was the primary motivating factor in saving His sheep through the substitutionary, propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)

Now that we have established, through Scripture proofs, no love lost between Christ and the false Christians, can we not also extrapolate that same reasoning to the heathen?

That being so, it is a false statement to preach and teach the ‘love’ of God for every person ever born.

I reiterate:

Those whom God loves He actually saves to the uttermost.

He cannot fail to do so.

That, my friends, is Good News!

If Jesus does not love every person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, then you have NO IDEA if you are elect or not……….. Yes, there are people in hell for whom Jesus died, because they did not access God's grace by faith.

If Jesus died for every person and there are some people in Hell for whom Jesus died, then you have no assurance that you are saved or that your faith is saving faith. Matt. 7:21-23 proves that self-assurance is not proof of one’s Christianity.
I stand with the Apostle Paul, “ for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.”

Now, I don't have to worry about whether I am elect, because I believe Jesus died for all men, and that Jesus will not cast out any man who comes to him.

If that be true, then why does He warn that He will cast many professing Christians into the Lake of Fire? (Matt. 7:21-23)

 

[Winman]

To be a consistent Arminian you must believe in continued free will and that you have no assurance of your salvation until the day you die…..at which point you will discover if you have attained or failed to persevere in all the conditions.

No, they cannot fall away into total unbelief because their seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in them.

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

On the contrary, these verses teach the lack of man’s will or desire to seek, obey, worship and love the true God……proving all men are by nature enemies of God, doing only evil continually.

No, they simply state fact that no man seeks God. It does not say that men cannot repent and seek God, the scriptures tell of many men who sought God.

2 Chr 19:3 Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.

Jehoshaphat sought God. And note that he was not regenerated to do so, God himself said King Jehoshaphat prepared his own heart to seek God.

No, I would interpret it to mean their free will decision and choice was against church attendance. They had the legs to walk to church. They lacked the will power to do so.

That goes without saying, but no one would interpret my statement to mean they might not repent and decide to attend church. Yet, this is what you do in Romans 3, you read Total Inability into it, when no such thing is said. It does not say that men are unable to repent and seek God. And as I just showed you from scripture, men are able to repent and seek God, God said so himself.

No. It takes the supernatural gracious miracle of God to trust and love the One whom we had previously hated.

Well, we love him because he first loved us.

Jesus does not love every person. Please read below:

Some years ago an anti-cal book was published, What Love Is This?
I respond in kind, “what ‘love’, indeed, is this?”

Consider the response of Jesus in Matt. 7:23: “I never knew you.”
Imagine. The omniscient, all-wise God-man will one day in condemnation declare to many professing Christians that at no time, not ever, did He know them. That horrible truth would necessitate the fact of eternally not knowing them. He did not know them on the Last Day, neither did He foreknow them from eternity, nor anytime in between. He never knew them. How can that be?

These persons did not come to Jesus in faith, they tried to merit salvation through good works. They boasted they prophesied in Jesus' name, cast out devils in Jesus' name, and did many "wonderful works" in Jesus' name. These persons did not submit to God and believe on Jesus by faith, but attempted to earn their salvation through works. This is why Jesus never knew them.

And it doesn't say Jesus never loved them, it says he never knew them. Not the same.

According to the non-cals, God loves every person ever born. (John 3:16) God loves the sinner, yet hates the sin. Given that basic premise, one would logically conclude that:

(a) It is impossible the Lord did not know the false Christians because they were born of the flesh due only to His eternal will and decree.

(b) If the Lord loves every person ever born, then certainly the Lord knows those He loves. Loving someone infers personal knowledge.

(c) Therefore, “I never knew you” must not be interpreted literally.

So how should one rightly interpret this mysterious verse?

Can “I never knew you” be interpreted to mean “I never loved you?”

Not quite sure I am following you here. But saying "I never loved you" is not the same as saying, "I never knew you".

“28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30)

“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.” (John 10:14)

“Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his…..” (2 Timothy 2:19a)

If I said, "I love my children", does that mean that my children are the only children I love? NO.

To ‘foreknow’ indicates knowledge from eternity. Those whom the Lord ‘foreknows’ He predestinates to glory where the foreknown will spend eternity with Him.

Those same persons ‘foreknown’ are those ‘known’ as His sheep. The Lord has always known who His people are.

Agreed. I have already showed you John 6:65 that shows Jesus knew "from the beginning who believed not", therefore he also knew who would believe.

“The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11b)

OK, again, If I said I bought food for my children, does this mean I have never bought food for children that are not mine? Of course not. You read into scripture what you desire it to say, not what it is actually saying.

“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13)

This verse does not necessarily exclude other persons.

Those whom Christ knew as His sheep (both from eternity and in time) are those same ones whom He loved and for whom He died a loving, sacrificial death.

That does not mean he did not also do so for others.

Therefore, we must conclude that those false Christians to whom Christ was addressing in Matt. 7 were never at anytime foreknown to be predestined to glory, nor were they known as His sheep, nor did He lovingly die for them.

That is terrible logic. You have proved no such thing. Just because the scriptures say Jesus loved his own, his sheep, and gave his life for them does not necessarily say he did not love and give his life for others.

It is obvious you cannot see the many unfounded assumptions you constantly make. You are reading into scripture what is not said.

If this be the case, then it is impossible He loved them in the past, present or future, since love was the primary motivating factor in saving His sheep through the substitutionary, propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry, this is a false argument easily refuted.

“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)

Now that we have established, through Scripture proofs, no love lost between Christ and the false Christians, can we not also extrapolate that same reasoning to the heathen?

That being so, it is a false statement to preach and teach the ‘love’ of God for every person ever born.

I reiterate:

Those whom God loves He actually saves to the uttermost.

He cannot fail to do so.

False, and scripture shows Jesus could not save every person he desired to save.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jesus desired to save all the people of Jerusalem, he clearly says so, but they would not come to him in faith as God requires. He loved them, he died for them, but they would not believe.

That, my friends, is Good News!

If Jesus did not love every man and did not die for every man, then you have no idea if Jesus loves you and died for you.

You could believe that you can drink poison as some misguided folks do, and it will kill you dead.

If Jesus did not die for you, you are a goner no matter what you believe. You cannot will Jesus to be your propitiation.

If Jesus died for every person and there are some people in Hell for whom Jesus died, then you have no assurance that you are saved or that your faith is saving faith. Matt. 7:21-23 proves that self-assurance is not proof of one’s Christianity.
I stand with the Apostle Paul, “ for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.”

If that be true, then why does He warn that He will cast many professing Christians into the Lake of Fire? (Matt. 7:21-23)

The scriptures show Jesus died for and bought those who are damned.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Peter said there will be false prophets and teachers who teach "damnable" heresies, but Jesus died for them, Jesus "bought" them.

Your view is easily refuted by MANY scriptures.

 

[Fred's Wife]

When I read "context" I don't start with a verse that proves my theology,and then call that the context, I start where the context actually STARTS. Paul is not making an argument for individual salvation by describing the lineage of Jacob and Abraham which is HOW THE CHAPTER STARTS. Calvinists never stop to ask WHY is Paul describing who are the children of promise and WHY is Paul giving such a long explanation about the difference of the SEEDS that came through Sarah, Rebekah, and Hagar. Paul quotes the story of Rebekah from Genesis 25 and this story is about TWO NATIONS. Paul is showing that a Jew does not inherit the SPIRITUAL promise just because he is from the blood of Jacob, nor does anyone else inherit the promises of Israel just because they are OF Jacob. Hagar's children were OF Jacob, but not all that are born OF JACOB are IN Jacob. Esau was born OF Isaac, but the SPIRITUAL promise went through JACOB, and the BIRTHRIGHT went through EPHRAIM.

This is why there is a difference between the kingdom of heaven, and the kingdom of God. God is not done with Israel AS A NATION because there is an unfulfilled promise of the birthright that was given through the line of Ephraim that is NOT TO BE RECKONED WITH THE GENEALOGY OF JUDAH FROM WHICH CHRIST CAME. This fact is why Calvinists DONT GET ROMANS 9-11, and why most Calvinists become amillennial-THEY HAVE TO in order to make Romans 9-11 about individual salvation.

So according to YOU, God is DONE WITH ISRAEL. Israel has NO FUTURE as a nation, and thus all the references made ALL THROUGH Romans 9-11 don't actually mean what they say. When Paul says "HATH GOD CAST AWAY HIS PEOPLE" and "His PEOPLE" are described as ISRAEL, NOT the church, but ISRAEL the NATION-

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." ROmans 11:2-

....Paul REALLY meant the church according to you, even though common sense and fifth grade reading comprehension would see that God can't possibly CAST AWAY the church, so this is an OBVIOUS reference to a NATION not a CHURCH.

If Paul was a Calvinist, then Paul would have advocated for murdering his detractors, sprinkling babies, advocated for an amillennial eschatology, and taught that the Holy Spirit was "spiritually present" in the sacraments.

And again, you continue to ignore the implication of your assertion that Paul is referencing a BELIEVER. First of all, I AM NOT AN ARMINIAN. I do not believe in much of what Arminius taught, and I believe in ETERNAL SECURITY which contemporary Arminianism DOES NOT. Secondly, you would have to say that all Arminians are NOT SAVED if you contend that Paul is answering an Arminian. If you are arguing that the Arminian here IS saved, then that goes right back to square one which is a question about the implications of your interpretation that you KEEP AVOIDING:

HOW IS A CHRISTIAN QUESTIONING GOD ABOUT BEING A CHRISTIAN?

I can see you and every other Calvinist are having an extremely difficult time trying to grasp that conundrum. If I know I am saved, and claim that I am elect, THEN WHY ON EARTH WOULD I BE QUESTIONING GOD ABOUT MY POSITIVE ELECTION??? That is ABSURD to the NTH degree. If you then try to back peddle by claiming this isn't about a question to God about election or salvation, then you eliminate your entire premise that passage is about individual salvation.

IF THIS PASSAGE IS ABOUT INDIVIDUAL SALVATION, THEN YOU HAVE A BELIEVER, ELECT OF GOD, COMPLAINING TO GOD ABOUT BEING SAVED.

DEAL WITH IT, that's the logical ABSURD and RIDICULOUS implication of your theology.

Amen Bro. James! :thumbsup:

 

[Protestant]

No one knows for a certainty how God will deal with those who have never heard the gospel. I could as easily put the question to you.

Please do! The Bible is quite clear on the matter, Winman. I realize how devastating the truth of the matter will be to you, should you grasp the enormous and quite serious implications.

(1) Romans 2:12: “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.”

(2) Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

(3) Romans 6:23a: “For the wages of sin is death.”

(4) Eph. 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith [in Jesus Christ]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

(5) Romans 10:17: “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

(6) Acts 4:12: “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [the name of Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Furthermore, we have the testimony of Leviticus 16:34 that the Day of Atonement (a foreshadowing of Christ’s atonement) was for the express purpose of atoning for the sins of Israel only.

“And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.”

We then have the testimony of Paul in Acts 14:16: “[God] Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own [wicked, idolatrous] ways.”

Winman, Scriptures are clear and explicit. Men by the billions died in their sins, having no Gospel preached to them, having no atonement made for them. From this biblical truth we may conclude the following:

(1) The Lord willed to not save them from the punishment due their sin. What the Lord wills, He unfailingly executes. (Dan. 4:35, etc., etc.)

(2) The Lord willed their condemnation before He created them; otherwise He would not have created them before the Gospel could be preached in their lifetime.

(3) The Lord’s decision to create vessels of dishonor had nothing to do with unbelief in Christ, since they had no knowledge of Christ.

(4) Instead, it had everything to do with God’s will of executing justice upon them for their willful sins which they committed by their own wicked choices.

(5) God does not owe merciful saving grace to any man.

(6) God does owe righteous justice to every man.

(7) Those whom God wills to not save, God has willed to not love.

(8) Those whom God wills to save, God has willed to love.

(9) God willed to love Jacob and mercifully saved him.

(10) God willed to hate Esau and justly hardened him.

(11) “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” (Romans 9:18)

Blessings in Christ Jesus, Winman!

 

[Winman]

(1) The Lord willed to not save them from the punishment due their sin. What the Lord wills, He unfailingly executes. (Dan. 4:35, etc., etc.)

The Lord is not willing that any should perish;

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(2) The Lord willed their condemnation before He created them; otherwise He would not have created them before the Gospel could be preached in their lifetime.

The gospel has been preached from the garden of Eden;

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

(3) The Lord’s decision to create vessels of dishonor had nothing to do with unbelief in Christ, since they had no knowledge of Christ.

You mean like Pharaoh?

Exo 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

Exo 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.

Pharaoh got to know the Lord real quick.

(4) Instead, it had everything to do with God’s will of executing justice upon them for their willful sins which they committed by their own wicked choices.

Agreed.

(5) God does not owe merciful saving grace to any man.

Agreed

(6) God does owe righteous justice to every man.

Agreed

(7) Those whom God wills to not save, God has willed to not love.

Already answered this, God is not willing that any should perish (2 Tim 3:9)

(8) Those whom God wills to save, God has willed to love.

God IS love, it is not so much that he wills to love as it is his nature to love.

(9) God willed to love Jacob and mercifully saved him.

Again, God loves all men, he saved Jacob because Jacob believed

(10) God willed to hate Esau and justly hardened him.

The use of the word "hate" here does not mean what we understand the word "hate" to mean today. It means he preferred Jacob over Esau.

For example, Jesus said unless a man hates his mother and father he cannot be his disciple;

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Jesus is not literally telling us to hate our father and mother here, that would be breaking the 5th commandment. Do you believe Jesus would command us to sin? NO. Jesus is saying we must prefer him over our mother or father, our wife, children and all others including ourselves to be his disciple. It is not saying we are to literally hate others. Later the scriptures tell a husband to love his wife.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

If your view is correct, God and Jesus contradict themselves over and over again.

(11) “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” (Romans 9:18)

Yes, but Paul is not saying God loves or hates persons unconditionally, when he refers to the potter he is referencing Jeremiah chapter 18 which was well known to the Jews.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Paul was not saying God unconditionally chooses to be good to some persons, and uncondtionally chooses to pass over others as Calvinism falsely teaches. Paul was referencing Jeremiah 18 where he says if a nation he has pronounced evil against repents of their evil ways, he will repent of the evil he intended toward them. Likewise, if God had pronounced good toward a nation, if that nation turns from him and does evil, God will repent of the good he had intended toward him.

So Paul was not teaching Unconditional Election whatsoever. He was telling these Jews that God had rejected them because of their unbelief, and was now accepting the Gentiles because they believed.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Paul is not teaching Uncondtional Election in Romans 9, he is saying the Gentiles have attained righteousness because they believed in Jesus, but the Jews have not attained righteousness because they sought it not by faith, but by the works of the law.

Calvinism completely misinterprets Romans chapter 9 to teach Unconditional Election, when it says the exact opposite, that salvation is conditioned on faith in Jesus.

Blessings in Christ Jesus, Winman!

Right.

 

[Protestant]

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none else.

I thought I would conclude our 'dialogue' by citing the Bible verse which you use in your signature. Obviously, the verse has significant meaning to you. However, sadly, you do not discern it's NT fulfillment.

This command reveals man's duty to God. It is a prophecy concerning Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. (John 3:14)

The command to 'look' signifies 'with eyes of faith.' It is not signifying 'with eyes of an idolator' gazing at a life-size crucifix.

Jesus clearly and emphatically teaches salvation is contingent upon the new spiritual birth because 'Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

The phrase 'he cannot see the kingdom of God' does not refer to literal blindness.

It refers to spiritual blindness.

Spiritual blindness is the effect of man's sinful flesh nature to which he was born.

Therefore, Jesus declares the absolute necessity of being born again.....of the Spirit.

All men, by nature, cannot 'see', 'discern', 'comprehend', 'look with eyes of faith' upon Jesus, UNLESS they be born of the Spirit.

For that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The kingdom of God is spiritual because God is spirit.

And only spirit can discern, see and comprehend that which is Spirit.

By the new birth of the Spirit, man's spiritual blindness is removed that he may see, discern, and comprehend spiritually. Once born from above, man can now "look upon God in Jesus and be saved."

That miracle, my friend, is entirely the work of God. (John 3:8; John 1:13; John chapter 9, where a spiritual message is primarily taught).

Please oh please do not deny the alone, holy, righteous, miraculous, sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.......'the wind.'

And please oh please do not propose that the wicked will and heart of spiritually dead, spiritually blind, God-hating man co-operates with the very One he hates.......thereby, in essence, raising himself to godhood.

That lie is as old as the Garden.

 

[Winman]

I thought I would conclude our 'dialogue' by citing the Bible verse which you use in your signature. Obviously, the verse has significant meaning to you. However, sadly, you do not discern it's NT fulfillment.

This command reveals man's duty to God. It is a prophecy concerning Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. (John 3:14)

No, it is referring to the fiery serpents in the wilderness.

Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

How do we know this is what Jesus was speaking of? He said so;

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The fiery serpents equal sin. All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and the wages of sin is death. Therefore all men have been bitten by sin.

Was anyone excluded from being saved? NO, the scriptures say "every one" that was bitten, if he looked would be saved. There was no Limited Atonement in the wilderness with Moses. And this is what Jesus referred to when he spoke to Nicodemus.

The command to 'look' signifies 'with eyes of faith.' It is not signifying 'with eyes of an idolator' gazing at a life-size crucifix.

Correct, but any man who was bitten could look, no one was excluded.

Jesus clearly and emphatically teaches salvation is contingent upon the new spiritual birth because 'Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

No, Jesus said you must first "look" to live. He did not say you must be made alive to look. You teach the exact opposite of scripture.

The phrase 'he cannot see the kingdom of God' does not refer to literal blindness.

It refers to spiritual blindness.

No, it is talking about entering in and seeing the kingdom of God.

Spiritual blindness is the effect of man's sinful flesh nature to which he was born.

Therefore, Jesus declares the absolute necessity of being born again.....of the Spirit.

We are separated from God by sin. We must believe to be justified, to have our sins washed away. Only then can we be reconciled to God.

All men, by nature, cannot 'see', 'discern', 'comprehend', 'look with eyes of faith' upon Jesus, UNLESS they be born of the Spirit.

No, all men that were bitten could look, and if they looked, THEN they would live.

For that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

OK

The kingdom of God is spiritual because God is spirit.

No, Jesus will return just as he left with a physical body. Heaven will have physical properties, this is why we wait for the resurrection of our bodies.

And only spirit can discern, see and comprehend that which is Spirit.

No, Jesus said he would speak to "the dead", and if the dead would hear, they would live.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did Jesus say "the living" shall hear his voice and live? NO, he said "the dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live. Faith and believing precede the new birth.

By the new birth of the Spirit, man's spiritual blindness is removed that he may see, discern, and comprehend spiritually. Once born from above, man can now "look upon God in Jesus and be saved."

That is exactly the opposite of what scripture teaches. Those bitten by the serpents were not healed so they could look, they looked so they could be healed.

That miracle, my friend, is entirely the work of God. (John 3:8; John 1:13; John chapter 9, where a spiritual message is primarily taught).

Except John 1:12 says only those who received Jesus and believed on his name were given the power to become sons of God.

Please oh please do not deny the alone, holy, righteous, miraculous, sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.......'the wind.'

Give me a break.

And please oh please do not propose that the wicked will and heart of spiritually dead, spiritually blind, God-hating man co-operates with the very One he hates.......thereby, in essence, raising himself to godhood.

That lie is as old as the Garden.

Too late, I have already showed you that those who were bitten and were dying had to first look in faith to live. I have showed you where Jesus himself said "the dead" shall hear his voice, and if they hear they shall live.

But please, please, please, oh please let this man listen to the scriptures and not the false teaching of men for once.