Explain This:

[Winman]

How does a spiritually dead person "believe"?

This has been explained many times. Go back and read DHK's earlier post. Spiritually dead people can believe, the rich man who died and went to hell believed, only it was too late for him. I posted John 11:25 where Jesus said, "he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live". Jesus also said "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live." So, the scriptures clearly teach the spiritually dead have the ability to believe. The early church fathers all believed this until Augustine came along. Augustine introduced much error, and Calvin received this error from Augustine.

 

[glfredrick]

"The Total Inability passed to us makes it impossible for us to comply with the command to believe in Christ. The most obvious fault with this doctrine is that it makes the gospel an unreasonable demand. How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), knowing the command is impossible to obey?

You suggest that this poses a "vexing problem" to Calvinists.


It does not. In fact, your statement above is the heart of Reformed theology!

GOD is the only one who can do what God can do. We CANNOT comply with the command to believe in Christ -- PERIOD.

Yet, the gospel is NOT an unreasonable demand. Why? Because, "With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

Scary, right?

Should be!

Anything less than GOD doing the work of salvation is not indeed salvation. No matter how human-centered one's theology, it all eventually boils down to God. Humans cannot justify. They cannot adopt. They cannot regenerate. They cannot even believe until they are made alive by God's grace first.

Grasp those SCRIPTURAL tenets and you will grasp why the Reformed Doctrines of Grace are true. Fail to grasp those Scriptural tenets and you will forever be dependent on a work of man for salvation.

 

[Winman]

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Are the devils spiritually dead? Yes. Can they believe? Yes.

 

[glfredrick]

This has been explained many times. Go back and read DHK's earlier post. Spiritually dead people can believe, the rich man who died and went to hell believed, only it was too late for him. I posted John 11:25 where Jesus said, "he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live". Jesus also said "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live." So, the scriptures clearly teach the spiritually dead have the ability to believe. The early church fathers all believed this until Augustine came along. Augustine introduced much error, and Calvin received this error from Augustine.

Winman, earlier I posted an article of Arminian faith that EXPRESSLY refuted your stance that man can believe without God's grace FIRST.

You absolutely refused to deal with an article of your own (claimed) theology.

You keep saying that a spiritually dead person CAN believe. I am asking how. You just tell me they can. Scripture says they cannot. Your theology says they cannot.

1Cr 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Article 4 (Arminian Theology)
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inas*much as it is written con*cerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and else*where in many places.


Eph 1:4-14 Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.



What is your answer?

And, if you are going to invoke the Church Fathers theology before Augustine, then you'll have to start citing their words IN CONTEXT. I do not accept your fallacy arguments from authority for I have not found you to be an authority.

 

[glfredrick]

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Are the devils spiritually dead? Yes. Can they believe? Yes.

How does this help your position? YOU are the one claiming to believe without God's grace first.

 

[Winman]

You suggest that this poses a "vexing problem" to Calvinists.
It does not. In fact, your statement above is the heart of Reformed theology!
GOD is the only one who can do what God can do. We CANNOT comply with the command to believe in Christ -- PERIOD.
Yet, the gospel is NOT an unreasonable demand. Why? Because, "With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."
Scary, right?
Should be!
Anything less than GOD doing the work of salvation is not indeed salvation. No matter how human-centered one's theology, it all eventually boils down to God. Humans cannot justify. They cannot adopt. They cannot regenerate. They cannot even believe until they are made alive by God's grace first.
Grasp those SCRIPTURAL tenets and you will grasp why the Reformed Doctrines of Grace are true. Fail to grasp those Scriptural tenets and you will forever be dependent on a work of man for salvation.

Just because Reformed Theology has found a way to explain this problem away does not make it correct. The question is whether it is scriptural. Calvinism cherry picks and takes verses out of context to build a system, while ignoring volumes of scripture that refutes it.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, God knows how to express himself, if he wanted to say, "But these are written that ye might have life, and having life ye might believe." he could have said so. Your argument is just like Archangel's. But you still have a problem because it says, "But these are written, that ye might". Now, can these written words cause life? No. Can written words cause belief? Yes. If God simply makes you alive, the gospel is unnecessary. But I don't expect you to grasp this.

You did not respond at all to the breathing illustration and you cannot recognize that the verse says nothing more than that belief is necessary for continued life just like breathing is necessary for continued life. But both breathing and believing are PRECEDED by life.

It is the only verse in the Bible that you can use that even remotely SOUNDS like belief must come before life and I have shown to you that it does not necessarily mean that.

Listen very carefully Winman- belief IS absolutely necessary for one to have eternal life. Absolutely necessary. But that does not at all mean that life did not precede belief. It simply means that belief is necessary for continued life.

Breathing is absolutely necessary to have life but that does not mean that breathing precedes life.

Illustration: "You were born that ye might breath..."

Does that demand that you did not have life already? No.

"Ye were born that ye might breath and that breathing ye might have life..."

It does not demand that breath precede life.

The same is true with belief.

Do you see how that verse does not demand that belief precedes life now?

 

[annsni]

Ann, you will never find a single verse in the Bible where it places having life, or being born of God before believeing. Now, the moment you believe you are given life, but faith must necessarily precede having life. Until you believe on Jesus your sins cannot be forgiven, so there is no way to have life until you first believe. I have presented many verses that perfectly support this, those on your side have not presented even one. Believe whatever you want, you have been told.

Well, I've already shown them but that's OK if you don't accept them. I've just never seen a dead man respond to anything ever.

 

[glfredrick]

Just because Reformed Theology has found a way to explain this problem away does not make it correct. The question is whether it is scriptural. Calvinism cherry picks and takes verses out of context to build a system, while ignoring volumes of scripture that refutes it.

The context of quantum's post was that Reformed theology had no explanation for that statement. I offered an explanation, which you agree is a solution.

Perhaps the problem is that the Reformed theology is not as far off the mark as you suspect.

Also, you YET failed to deal with Article 4. Would you please deal with that for me? I offered a solution to the "vexing problem" offered to me. What is your solution to the "vexing problem" I offer you?

I've been asking you this for several days now, and you continually skirt the issue.

 

[annsni]

"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"...simply means that faith that Jesus is the Christ is a sign of being born again.

It does not mean you were born again before you had faith.

Yes, faith in Jesus is the sign of being born again. In other words, you must be born again in order to have faith. Like breathing is the sign of being alive, you can't breathe if you are not alive.

 

[preacher4truth]

How does this help your position? YOU are the one claiming to believe without God's grace first.

Yes he believes that. He believes it is faith first, then he changed his position. He's had ample Scriptures shown to him.

Grace was given to us and lead us to believe. It's all through Scripture, God doing all the giving on His own.

 

[annsni]

They happen at the same time. It's not faith before regeneration it's not regeneration before faith. that would imply that you can have faith without being regenerate or be regenerate without faith. both of which are not taught in Scripture. We know that regeneration is all of God and not of the will of man(John 1:13), but it also says that those that believe in the previous verse. I think it is something we will not fully understand. Now, I'm not trying to make a cop out answer here as it may seem. I do believe that salvation begins with God. I also believe salvation is all of God. Our faith(the ability to believe) is a gift from God. (Rom 12:3, Eph 2:8, Heb 12:2, Rom 10:17). I believe this happens at regeneration. So if a person has been regenerated, they have faith. If a person has faith, they have been regenerated. There is no in between. It happens at the same time.

I do think that it happens in very quick succession. I know someone here said that there are people who are spiritually alive who do not have faith but I disagree with that. I think it all happens as quickly as a child being born having a multitude of physiological things happening to them because of their birth. God quickens the heart that is now able to respond to the Gospel and that person WILL respond. In a heartbeat.

 

[preacher4truth]

I do think that it happens in very quick succession. I know someone here said that there are people who are spiritually alive who do not have faith but I disagree with that. I think it all happens as quickly as a child being born having a multitude of physiological things happening to them because of their birth. God quickens the heart that is now able to respond to the Gospel and that person WILL respond. In a heartbeat.

Thats how I picture it also.

 

[annsni]

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


We are justified by faith, therefore faith must precede the new birth because you cannot be born again and unjustified at the same time.

This says nothing of regeneration. It speaks of justification. They are two separate things.

 

[glfredrick]

I do think that it happens in very quick succession. I know someone here said that there are people who are spiritually alive who do not have faith but I disagree with that. I think it all happens as quickly as a child being born having a multitude of physiological things happening to them because of their birth. God quickens the heart that is now able to respond to the Gospel and that person WILL respond. In a heartbeat.

There is a "logical" order to salvation (ordo salutis) but not a temporal order.

A great synopsis:

[QUOTEhttp://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/]Latin, "the order of salvation." The ordo salutis is the theological doctrine that deals with the logical sequencing of the benefits of redemption as we are united to Christ which are applied to us by the Holy Spirit. This first thing to remember is that we must never separate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ).

The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God in Christ and is by grace alone. Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption.

Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith.

All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life. The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously. This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest).

Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ. We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed in the following articles occur together or happen simultaneously like heat and fire. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian.[/QUOTE]

 

[Robert Snow]

How does a spiritually dead person "believe"?

They respond to the Spirit of God. It's not difficult for the Lord to speak to the dead.

Also, your Calvinistic understanding of death is wrong. Death speaks of separation, not inability.

 

[annsni]

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Are the devils spiritually dead? Yes. Can they believe? Yes.

Oh good. Now the devils are saved!! So we are now comparing human souls to fallen angels? That's apples and oranges, sir.

 

[Luke2427]

Just because Reformed Theology has found a way to explain this problem away does not make it correct. The question is whether it is scriptural. Calvinism cherry picks and takes verses out of context to build a system, while ignoring volumes of scripture that refutes it.

No Winman. The BIBLE explains the problem- not Calvinists.

The Bible says, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... NEITHER CAN HE..."

Receiving the things of the Spirit of God is faith- it is believing the Gospel.

Paul is clear- the natural man CANNOT do this.

This is why Jesus said in John 6

60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Here there is a hard saying- it is the Gospel. They asked, "Who can hear it?"

Jesus answers that question. He said that even seeing him ascend could not convince some- why? Because it is the spirit that quickeneth.

They cannot believe until QUICKENED by the Spirit.

Then Jesus tells us WHO will be quickened by the Spirit so that they can believe:
Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[annsni]

Just because Reformed Theology has found a way to explain this problem away does not make it correct. The question is whether it is scriptural. Calvinism cherry picks and takes verses out of context to build a system, while ignoring volumes of scripture that refutes it.

No, it looks at the WHOLE of Scripture.

I was in my late 20s, early 30s, always having believed in man's free will - really solidly in the Arminian camp. Until I began to study my Bible more and more. And then I got confused. I saw things that were contradictions to my beliefs so I studied more. I actually got angry because what I was reading was telling me something that I did not want to hear. I'm a person who is set in my ways and hate change. I had it all figured out but now I was truly seeing that I had it wrong. I prayed about it and asked for wisdom and guidance and I finally saw that what I had believed all along was wrong. I had no name for either belief, it was not like I had studied "Calvinism and Arminianism" and looked for outside sources to figure out what I believed. I just saw Scripture and had to reorder my theology to fit what Scripture said instead of what I had always been taught. After that time, we came to the church that we're at and I learned of the cultural name of what I saw in Scripture - Calvinism or the doctrine of grace.

 

[preacher4truth]

Just because Reformed Theology has found a way to explain this problem away does not make it correct. The question is whether it is scriptural. Calvinism cherry picks and takes verses out of context to build a system, while ignoring volumes of scripture that refutes it.

No, you have described what you do.