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Ezekiel 18 Falling away and become wicked
- Thread starter Kay
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
God's Word does not contradict itself, BR.
Are you trying to tell me that Jesus did not really mean that 'He that believeth shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life'?
Jesus did not really mean eternal life? He lied to Paul when Paul said Jesus would 'confirm us unto the end' and 'present us blameles'?
What are we placing our faith in if Jesus is not able to keep us, BR?
Are you trying to tell me that Jesus did not really mean that 'He that believeth shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life'?
Jesus did not really mean eternal life? He lied to Paul when Paul said Jesus would 'confirm us unto the end' and 'present us blameles'?
What are we placing our faith in if Jesus is not able to keep us, BR?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
When asked for a brief example of texts SHOWING that OSAS can not be true -- I gave this list.
#1. That is not how to exegete Ezek 18 or ANY of the texts given as examples of texts directly contradicting man-made OSAS doctrines.
#2. You can not exegete these problem texts for OSAS by a post that does not mention them AT ALL!
#3. The texts given in your list are good examples of some texts that do not directly contradict OSAS -- they leave just enough wiggle room for OSAS-believers to INSERT that idea into the text -- but the list I gave shows that this INSERT that is attempted by those who promote OSAS does not survive the "test of scripture".
Another good example of this is
1John 4 "God is Love" - this leaves "wiggle room" for us to imagine "universalism" and "nobody is ever punished by God". Such false doctrine is not refuted by "never leaving 1John 4".
you have to GO TO the texts that explicitly show that said-doctrine is false rather than continually circling back to 1John 4.
I believe that you will agree that the objective unbiased reader that does not already assume your particular POV is going to see this point clearly!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:
standingfirminChrist said:
#1. That is not how to exegete Ezek 18 or ANY of the texts given as examples of texts directly contradicting man-made OSAS doctrines.
#2. You can not exegete these problem texts for OSAS by a post that does not mention them AT ALL!
#3. The texts given in your list are good examples of some texts that do not directly contradict OSAS -- they leave just enough wiggle room for OSAS-believers to INSERT that idea into the text -- but the list I gave shows that this INSERT that is attempted by those who promote OSAS does not survive the "test of scripture".
Another good example of this is
1John 4 "God is Love" - this leaves "wiggle room" for us to imagine "universalism" and "nobody is ever punished by God". Such false doctrine is not refuted by "never leaving 1John 4".
you have to GO TO the texts that explicitly show that said-doctrine is false rather than continually circling back to 1John 4.
I believe that you will agree that the objective unbiased reader that does not already assume your particular POV is going to see this point clearly!
in Christ,
Bob
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Bob,
If OSAS is false and Ezekiel 18 is speaking of a saved individual losing his or her salvation, then Jesus was lying when He told Paul He would confirm us to the end and present us blameless.
How can one be presented blameless and still be found to have lost his or her Salvation? It isn't possible.
You can continue to believe that Jesus lied... I will believe the truth.
If OSAS is false and Ezekiel 18 is speaking of a saved individual losing his or her salvation, then Jesus was lying when He told Paul He would confirm us to the end and present us blameless.
How can one be presented blameless and still be found to have lost his or her Salvation? It isn't possible.
You can continue to believe that Jesus lied... I will believe the truth.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
standingfirminChrist said:
Ok - now see! We agree on something!:type:
Nope - I am trying to tell you that the BELIEVER DOES go to heaven. I am also telling you that the one who DOES NOT believe does NOT go to heaven.
And I am pointing out that whereas John 3 does NOT deal with the case of one who "believes AND THEN fails to continue to believe" -- Romans 11 and Ezek 18 DOES deal with that scenario explicitly!
In Christ we have the promise of eternal life for the one who BELIEVES - - some try to turn this into a word-game so that those who "DO NOT BELIEVE" also get eternal life by turning eternal life "into a cookie" or a "lottery ticket" that is NOT relational at all - they spin it around so that it is merely an "object received at conversion" so that they can then "construe a scenario where the one who later DOES NOT BELIEVE still has the cookie".
My point is that scripture EXPLICITLY deals with that claim and shows that it is utterly false.
Yet many try to solve that by "not looking at those scriptures" as you have done in your "solution post" where you provide a list of text where you are "careful to avoid' those texts explicitly dealing with the subject of one who "believes and then later fails to continue" in that belief.
The fact that you need to carefully avoid those texts is noted.
Surely you have to agree that the unbiased objectifve reader that does not start out by assuming your POV is going to "notice".
in Christ,
Bob
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
BobRyan said:
Bob,
One who believes 'has eternal life'. One who believes has the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit testifies to the one who believes that Jesus is the Christ. He lets that believer know of assurity who Jesus is. Once one believes in Christ, one is not going to stop believing. He has the Holy Spirit to remind him of Christ always.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
standingfirminChrist said:
"Some" are "gaming the text" by inserting into it what it does not say. They "need" it to say "the one who believes RETAINS eternal life EVEN if he later chooses NOT to believe and so you see that EVEN the UNBELIEVERS have eternal life" --
Though they "need" that insert - a careful exegesis of that text reveals "IT" does not say what you needed to insert there.
Others game this text by inserting "The one who believes can NOT choose at any point to turn back from that position of faith and belief. Once they believe they lose their free will so that they can retain Eternal Life".
And yet Romans 11 EXPLICITLY refutes that POV by telling those who HAVE chosen Christ and who ARE in a faithul walk with Christ to "FEAR for if He did not spare them NEITHER will he spare you" - thus showing that at the very least "the warning" applies to ALL the saints even the faithful.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
standingfirminChrist said:
We ALL agree that the one who believes and DOES NOT STOP (the one who perseveres firm to the end) is once-saved and ALWAYS saved that entire time.
The issue is "what about one who IS declared by God to be righteous" and then TURNS back to evil -- is that person still saved.
I say no.
Your solution is to try to "break the text" and spin it around so that EVEN though it EXPLICITLY deals with the case of one declared by God to be "righteous" who then TURNS -- you argue that we must close our eyes and imagine that the text EVER said anything about God declaring them righteous and blameless (as He did with Job) in the first place and you accomplish this trick by NOT exegeting the texts that debunk OSAS -- just avoiding them!
How in the world can you hope to prove your point that way??
in Christ,
Bob
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. (John 16:13-14)
Jesus did not say the Holy Spirit will just let us wander around aimlessly. No, He stated that the Spirit would testify of Christ and He would guide us.
One who has placed his or her faith in Christ cannot stop believing in Him. It is impossible.
When Christ makes Himself real in a believer's life, whether through miracles, healings, the divine revelation of Scripture, prayer or whatever, that person will not stop believing in Him.
Jesus did not say the Holy Spirit will just let us wander around aimlessly. No, He stated that the Spirit would testify of Christ and He would guide us.
One who has placed his or her faith in Christ cannot stop believing in Him. It is impossible.
When Christ makes Himself real in a believer's life, whether through miracles, healings, the divine revelation of Scripture, prayer or whatever, that person will not stop believing in Him.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
BobRyan said:
Bob, you are using OT texts and trying to insert NT truths into it. Look at it in the light of the OT laws and torts.
One who turned away from wickedness was pardoned in many cases. Certain sacrifices were made to atone for certain trespasses.
But if one who had previously been living in a manner that was seen as righteous turned and began doing wickedness, in many instances that one was put to death. His good standing was not used to say let him live.
True, many of the people seemed to get away from those laws, but did that mean that the laws were negated in God's eyes.
The instance in Ezekiel is speaking of the natural righteousness, not spiritual righteousness.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I think about the OJ Simpson trial when I read Ezekiel 18.
Here was a man that many looked up to and respected because of much good he had done in his past. All of a sudden, he is brought before a judge on murder charges.
Did Judge Ito look at his accomplishments and say 'You did good, OJ, so we are going to overlook the murder of Nicole and Ronald'. No, his good did not have any bearing on the outcome of the trial.
His right standing (righteousness) was not remembered.
Here was a man that many looked up to and respected because of much good he had done in his past. All of a sudden, he is brought before a judge on murder charges.
Did Judge Ito look at his accomplishments and say 'You did good, OJ, so we are going to overlook the murder of Nicole and Ronald'. No, his good did not have any bearing on the outcome of the trial.
His right standing (righteousness) was not remembered.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
BobRyan said:
Bob,
I challenge you to try to stop believing in Christ. Try it then tell me whether it can be done or not.
I say it can't. I sure can't stop believing no matter how much you try to convince me I can.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
BobRyan said:
God knows the hearts of men, Bob. He knows who truly are His. God knew Judas was the son of perdition and would betray Jesus. Yet he used Judas as one of the Apostles. Judas was never saved. Not once did he profess that Jesus was Lord. Judas had a form of godliness, but denied the power, God's Son. Judas had his own righteousness. The other Apostles did not know Judas would betray Jesus. He had tricked even them into believing he was of the Lord.
Many times in both the Old and New Testaments we find people trying to put on godly airs, acting pious, yet the filth of their own righteousness though right in man's eyes did not meet God's standards.
They were weighed in the balance and found wanting.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I have no question that God knows the future - He knows who will believe and remain faithful firm to the end - he knows who will turn away from salvation "ten years from today" and he know who will be saved, fall away and then "be restored again because they do not continue in unbelief" as is stated in Romans 11.
It is not a question of God "not knowing the future".
He knew it with Gabriel and when He created Lucifer and when he created Adam and also in Is 59 when He gave Israel "FOREVER" promises of His Holy Spirit.
in Christ,
Bob
It is not a question of God "not knowing the future".
He knew it with Gabriel and when He created Lucifer and when he created Adam and also in Is 59 when He gave Israel "FOREVER" promises of His Holy Spirit.
in Christ,
Bob
standingfirminChrist
New Member
So Bob, you are making a claim that a saved person can stop believing.
Where is the Scripture to back such a foolish claim?
Again, I challenge you to try to stop believing in God. I bet you can't.
Where is the Scripture to back such a foolish claim?
Again, I challenge you to try to stop believing in God. I bet you can't.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Take at close look at Romans 11 --
1. what is it warning against?
2. Who are those who ARE standing by faith -- that are being warned in Romans 11?
Hint: The underlined sections
Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for [/b]God is able to graft them in again.[/b]
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to natureinto a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
1. what is it warning against?
2. Who are those who ARE standing by faith -- that are being warned in Romans 11?
Hint: The underlined sections
Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for [/b]God is able to graft them in again.[/b]
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to natureinto a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Bob,
That passage is dealing with unbelieving Israel. They were broken off because of their unbelief. They were not saved. It takes belief to be saved. they did not believe.
Even in the Old Testament, one had to have faith. The Israelites proved they had no faith in God. That is why they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years and their generation died.
The unbelieving may cling to religion, they may claim to be of Christ, but the truth is, they are not. and because of that, Christ cut them off. Salvation was offered to the Gentiles.
Jews were offered Salvation and rejected it because of unbelief.
That passage is dealing with unbelieving Israel. They were broken off because of their unbelief. They were not saved. It takes belief to be saved. they did not believe.
Even in the Old Testament, one had to have faith. The Israelites proved they had no faith in God. That is why they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years and their generation died.
The unbelieving may cling to religion, they may claim to be of Christ, but the truth is, they are not. and because of that, Christ cut them off. Salvation was offered to the Gentiles.
Jews were offered Salvation and rejected it because of unbelief.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Let's look at "the details" in Rom 11 that do not fit OSAS as we answer the question I asked you about "who is the YOU in Romans 11 that Paul is warning?"
1. The "you" that Paul is addressing in Romans 11 is "IN Christ" and is looking the fact that Jews fell - so that "YOU might be grafted in".
2. "the YOU" in Romans 11 is "standing by faith"
3. the "you" in Romans 11 is being told that the Jews who fell and were "removed" by God - "fell due to unbelief and YOU stand only by your faith".
4. The "you" in Romans 11 who is standing by faith and is clearly a gentile ("you who are gentiles") is being told that "you stand only by your faith" and that "YOU should fear" rather than looking at the Jews who were removed by God due to unbelief and then becoming conceited as "you" say to "yourself - they were removed that I might be grafted in".
5. the "you" in Romans 11 - is a gentile Christian, IS standing by faith and IS being "WARNED" to "fear for if He did not spare THEM then neither will He spare YOU"
Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/b]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Question - how many of these key salient points in Romans 11 did your response address?
Answer - none.
Why? "because OSAS needed these points to be ignored"??
Quesiton -- don't you think the unbiased objective reader is going to notice that you are posting an "all-for-OSAS" kind of response as you ignore the inconvenient details of Romans 11?
in Christ,
Bob
1. The "you" that Paul is addressing in Romans 11 is "IN Christ" and is looking the fact that Jews fell - so that "YOU might be grafted in".
2. "the YOU" in Romans 11 is "standing by faith"
3. the "you" in Romans 11 is being told that the Jews who fell and were "removed" by God - "fell due to unbelief and YOU stand only by your faith".
4. The "you" in Romans 11 who is standing by faith and is clearly a gentile ("you who are gentiles") is being told that "you stand only by your faith" and that "YOU should fear" rather than looking at the Jews who were removed by God due to unbelief and then becoming conceited as "you" say to "yourself - they were removed that I might be grafted in".
5. the "you" in Romans 11 - is a gentile Christian, IS standing by faith and IS being "WARNED" to "fear for if He did not spare THEM then neither will He spare YOU"
Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/b]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Question - how many of these key salient points in Romans 11 did your response address?
Answer - none.
Why? "because OSAS needed these points to be ignored"??
Quesiton -- don't you think the unbiased objective reader is going to notice that you are posting an "all-for-OSAS" kind of response as you ignore the inconvenient details of Romans 11?
in Christ,
Bob
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Hebrews 6
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
How can you be enlightened and fall away if you were not saved. What were you falling away from?
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
How can you be enlightened and fall away if you were not saved. What were you falling away from?