Ezekiel 18 Falling away and become wicked

[standingfirminChrist]

HP: Heb. 6:4 does not say anything about true believers not being able to fall away according to your own words. You said “This passage refers to false professors of Christ.” Therefore, it has nothing to do with the reality of true believers being able to forfeit their salvation now does it? The ‘impossibility’ lies with the unbelieve being restored again, according to your words, not mine.




HP: Not according to the passage in Hebrews if you are correct in assuming, as you stated, that verse 4 was not addressing a believer at all. If verse 4 does not address a believer, this whole passage is not applicable to any believer not being able to be restored having fallen. It is talking about those that have not been saved. If you are going to make a case about a believer not being able to be restored, you are going to have to find a passage where a believer is addressed.

What verses do you suggest we use to show a Christian can lose his or her Salvation. I will refute any one with sound Bible doctine.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: What verses do you suggest we use to show a Christian can lose his or her Salvation. I will refute any one with sound Bible doctine.

HP: You are the one that claimed it would be impossible for a saved person to be restored to fellowship if he fell away. The burden of proof lies upon you to furnish the text that states or implies that. I am waiting for your verse.

Again, the passage you tried to use and apply it to a saved person, you said was speaking of an unsaved person. That does not work to prove your point. I am certain you must have another text in mind. Take all the time you need to locate and post it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HP: You are the one that claimed it would be impossible for a saved person to be restored to fellowship if he fell away. The burden of proof lies upon you to furnish the text that states or implies that. I am waiting for your verse.

Again, the passage you tried to use and apply it to a saved person, you said was speaking of an unsaved person. That does not work to prove your point. I am certain you must have another text in mind. Take all the time you need to locate and post it.

I said if it were possible for the to lose their salvation it would be impossible to renew them to repentance. The Bible teaches that.

You show me any text that you use to argue a person can lose his or her salvation. Surely you have Scripture you use to come to such a conclusion. What are they?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: I said if it were possible for the to lose their salvation it would be impossible to renew them to repentance. The Bible teaches that.

HP: Where???? Possibly there is someone else on the list that could explain things in a better fashion to SFIC. Would someone be so kind as to explain to him for me for me that if the passage he used to say that it would be impossible to be renewed if one fell, was according to him not addressing a saved individual at all, and as such it cannot be used to indicate a saved man cannot be restored if he falls? He needs to produce a Scripture that makes his point if he is going to tell us that it would be impossible to be restored as a saved individual fell.

If SFIC cannot produce a text that makes his case in say a week or so, possibly he might consider withdrawing his remarks. Being the nice guy I am, I am for giving him all the time he needs. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: You show me any text that you use to argue a person can lose his or her salvation. Surely you have Scripture you use to come to such a conclusion. What are they?

HP: Why don’t we start with a fair examination of the ‘righteous man’ in Ezekiel 18? That would be a great place to begin.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have already examined Ezekiel 18 and given my findings.

The man in Ezekiel 18 is was clothed in his own righteousness and whe temptations arose, his giving in to them proved his righteousness was not good enough.

 

[BobRyan]

This is not speaking of a saved man in verse 24. It is not speaking of one who has put on the righteousness of Christ. .

Your argument fails at the very start as it fails two basic tests.

1. There IS NO righteousness apart from Christ so the one who IS righteous in Ezek 18 can only be so in context with TRUE righteousness in Christ.

2. The text warns against TURNING FROM that righteousness.

You claim that righteousness is nothing more than damnation -- and so you stand the text on it's head having it WARN us against "turning from the condemnation self-righteous that has us bound for hell - because turning away from that will get you condemned as Ezek tells us that those will die who turn from that righteousness".

It is left as an exercise for the reader to see that you have adopted a self-conflicted contradictory position by all accounts.

You motive is clear - to salvage OSAS. But to what extreme will you go to do it?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What verses do you suggest we use to show a Christian can lose his or her Salvation. I will refute any one with sound Bible doctine.

Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked.
Ezek 18 - right standing with God - revoked
John 15 - branches abinding IN Christ - severed from Christ - dying and burned.
Romans 11 - Branches REMOVED from Christ for not CONTINUING to stand by faith -- but God is "able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not CONTINUE in unbelief".

2Peter 2:20-22 "They have ESCAPED the defilements of the sinful world through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ -- and then turned back again to their old ways... better for them NEVER to have KNOWN Christ at all"


Take your pick.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.

6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife
or lie with a woman during her period.

7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

8 He does not lend at usury
or take excessive interest. [a]
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between man and man.

9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.

This is not speaking of a saved man in verse 24. It is not speaking of one who has put on the righteousness of Christ. .

I see - so when you look at that SAME list you say

"that man is NOT righteous - he shall surely die".

I think I see where you are coming from and it is not even remotely accurate exegesis of Ezek 18.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR. How would you now answer one that uses Heb 6: 4 to show that it is impossible for a believer to be renewed if he falls making falling away impossible for the believer? I can assure you that my response will never be the same as in the past.

SFIC illustrated beautifully how this passage cannot be used to show that a believer cannot fall and be reinstated and therefore does not fall when he sins or he would be lost forever. If they admit this text speaks of a believer, they are admitting that OSAS is in error. Their solution is to say that the text addressing a lost individual. If that is the case, a believer falling is not the subject of the verse whatsoever. In this case, this verse does not say anything about a saved individual falling and not being able to be restored. Am I making this valid point clear, or is this old hat for you?

 

[Kay]

Was Satan ever saved? He was a fallen angel? Judas was a devil from the beginning how about Satan himself He was created by God but was he ever saved?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Your argument fails at the very start as it fails two basic tests.

1. There IS NO righteousness apart from Christ so the one who IS righteous in Ezek 18 can only be so in context with TRUE righteousness in Christ.

2. The text warns against TURNING FROM that righteousness.

You claim that righteousness is nothing more than damnation -- and so you stand the text on it's head having it WARN us against "turning from the condemnation self-righteous that has us bound for hell - because turning away from that will get you condemned as Ezek tells us that those will die who turn from that righteousness".

It is left as an exercise for the reader to see that you have adopted a self-conflicted contradictory position by all accounts.

You motive is clear - to salvage OSAS. But to what extreme will you go to do it?

in Christ,

Bob

Man has his own righteousness, Bob. Isaiah recorded as such when he wrote 'All our righteousness is as filthy rags.'

Your motive is clear. To salvage the false doctine of man losing that which Christ has promised we would never lose.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Was Satan ever saved? He was a fallen angel? Judas was a devil from the beginning how about Satan himself He was created by God but was he ever saved?

No Kay.

Angels are not saved.

Angels were already in heaven and did not need the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

[FONT=&quot]1. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the nature of salvation[/FONT][FONT=&quot]:
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) Salvation is eternal (Joh 3:16,36).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) Salvation is a present possession (Ro 5:1-21; 1Pe 2:24-25).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](3) Salvation is by imputation and substitution (2Co 5:17; Ga 2:20; Heb 9:10; Ro 3:24).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](4) Salvation is positional (Eph 1:3 - "in Christ"; Ro 6:7; Col 2:10; 3:1-4,12).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](5) Salvation is not of human merit; it is a free gift of grace which cannot be mixed with works (Eph 2:8-9; Tit 3:3-7; Ro 3:19-28; 4:4-5; 11:6).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the results of salvation[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: (1) Eternal life (Joh 3:16).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) Justification (Ro 5:1; 3:19-28).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](3) Peace with God (Ro 5:1).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](4) Sure possession of future glory (Ro 5:2; Col 3:1-4).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](5) Salvation from future wrath (Ro 5:9).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](6) Raised up with Christ (Ro 6:1-23).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](7) Blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ (Eph 1:3).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](8) Sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](9) Passed from darkness to light (Col 1:12-14).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the teaching of election[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: Election does not destroy human responsibility (2Th 2:10-13; Ac 13:46,48),
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]but election does promise security for the believer (Ro 8:28-39; Eph 1:1-23; 1Pe 1:2-7).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because lack of good works involves loss of rewards and fruitfulness, not loss of one's eternal relationship with Christ[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (1Co 3:15; Tit 3:14; 2Jo 1:8).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the believer's union with Christ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. The believing sinner is placed "in Christ" and stands or falls with Him (Col 1:14; Eph 1:1-3 - "in Christ" mentioned 25 times; Heb 9:10; 1Pe 1:18-23; 2:6,24-25).[/FONT]


From Way of Life Encyclopedia

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: Man has his own righteousness, Bob. Isaiah recorded as such when he wrote 'All our righteousness is as filthy rags.'

HP: A simple word study on the word righteousness ‘should’ prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is righteousness performed by man that is acceptable to God, BUT NOT as the grounds of our salvation. David said, "The Lord hath rewarded me according to my righteousness, by the cleanliness of my hands He hath recompensed me." Are you suggesting that the Lord rewards us for self-righteousness? Self-righteousness is in reality a oxymoron, a contradiction of terms.

Show us from the text that the righteousness Isaiah was speaking of was mere ‘self-righteousness.’ That is an unfounded position that lacks support from the Word of God. The text merely proves what we all believe, in that nothing a sinner can do in any way attributes to the grounds of salvation. The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God and has nothing to do with anything we can or will do. That does NOT mean that God has not mandated conditions for us to fulfill in order to receive of that grace in the form of a hope of eternal life. Bear in mind, that when we speak of conditions of salvation, they are NOT, I repeat, NOT meritorious in nature, but are always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which.’ That is why it can be rightfully said in one sense we have nothing to do with the plan of salvation or the means by which that plan was carried out and made available to us, yet there are things we must do for salvation to be made effective in our live, i.e., to fulfill the conditions God has mandated for us to fulfill:repentance, faith and endurance to the end. Without which no man shall see God.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Scripture must interpret Scripture, HP and BR.

Read all the verses I referenced in my last post that prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Salvation cannot be lost.

And then tell me that Ezekiel 18 is speaking of something other than man's own righteousness.

You can't honestly say that is speaking of a person losing his Salvation in light of the many verses that state emphatically that Salvation is eternal and cannot be lost.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: Read all the verses I referenced in my last post that prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Salvation cannot be lost.

HP: It would take a whole series of books to plumb the depths of all the verses you list. Pick your favorite verse, that tells us that we cannot lose our salvation and we will examine it together. I personally do not use the term ‘lose your salvation’ for I believe it leads to a false idea of the nature of salvation, and in actuality what happens to a believer when they sin. I would rather term it failing the grace of God, or backsliding, or forfeiting our hope of eternal life, etc

SFIC: And then tell me that Ezekiel 18 is speaking of something other than man's own righteousness.

HP: Ezekiel 18 in the verse you are speaking of does not state in any way,insinuate, or imply owns own self-righteousness as you imply. Did I tell you the way you wanted me to?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

In light of the verse references I posted, Ezekiel 18 cannot be speaking of a saved individual.

Failing the grace of God... we all fail. Paul did and kept his Salvation. 'The evil that I would not, that I do'.

Backsliding... same as above. But Salvation is still not lost.

Forfeiting our hope of eternal life... ain't going to happen. God's Word promises that Jesus is faithful to His promises. He will confirm us to the end and present us blameless.

Paul wrote that Christ would confirm us. Christ will present us blameless. He keeps us.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

We cannot dismiss the words of our Lord Jesus Christ when He said:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

amd

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)

To that one who believes on Jesus, He has given eternal life. That means from the moment that one believes, his life has no ending. It is locked in. We do not have a key to open and closes that door any time we want.

He has promised them eternal life. That is an irrevocable gift. It cannot be returned, sold, or transferred to another. And Christ will confirm His own to the end, not just until they leave the fold and go out in sin.

I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Corinthians 1:4-9)

 

[BobRyan]

Quoting the "details" in Ezek 18...

5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.

6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife
or lie with a woman during her period.

7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

8 He does not lend at usury
or take excessive interest. [a]
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between man and man.

9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.

Originally Posted by standingfirminChrist
This is not speaking of a saved man in verse 24. It is not speaking of one who has put on the righteousness of Christ. .

I see - so when you look at that SAME list you say

"that man is NOT righteous - he shall surely die".

I think I see where you are coming from and it is not even remotely accurate exegesis of Ezek 18.


Your argument fails at the very start as it fails two basic tests.

1. There IS NO righteousness apart from Christ so the one who IS righteous in Ezek 18 can only be so in context with TRUE righteousness in Christ.

2. The text warns against TURNING FROM that righteousness.

You claim that righteousness is nothing more than damnation -- and so you stand the text on it's head having it WARN us against "turning from the condemnation self-righteous that has us bound for hell - because turning away from that will get you condemned as Ezek tells us that those will die who turn from that righteousness".

It is left as an exercise for the reader to see that you have adopted a self-conflicted contradictory position by all accounts.

In light of the verse references I posted, Ezekiel 18 cannot be speaking of a saved individual.

hmm that is pretty convincing... why didn't I think of that before instead of being focused on that bad ol' idea of exegesis in Ezek 18 I coulda just ignored it altogether as you suggest.

in Christ,

Bob