'Faith Alone' and James 2:24.

[utilyan]

Indeed He does (Ephesians 1:4 etc.).

No. The Bible doesn't say that. You have made it up. Plenty of people have made love their god and made shipwreck of their lives.

God's love is everlasting and unchangeable. Ours is not, alas.

God is love, but love is not all that God is.
I would venture the opinion that 1 John 5:16, along with Matthew 7:1, is the verse most abused and misunderstood in the Bible.

However, none of this alters the fact that we sinful humans cannot love God before we believe in Him.
Faith comes first; then love.

You speak of the Sermon on the Mount. Bear in mind it was spoken to disciples, not unbelievers (Matthew 5:1-2).

You have no idea, no idea at all. You are writing complete rubbish. You cannot love someone, you cannot serve someone until you believe in him.

You don't challenge me. Not at all. I don't need you to tell me that God is love. But He is also 'the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though He may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?' (John 11:25-26).

Well? Do you?

Amen, I believe.

1 John 4
16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.


The one who abides in love abides in God. Do you believe this?

That means LOVE is GOD.

If the author believed as you, he wouldn't dare flip it, he would only say "the one who abides in God abides in love" which is what your pushing.


If for one minute it was understood that Love is not GOD. The entirety of 1 Corinthians 13 would be ripped out for saying love rather then God.



They have a word for Faith without Love. EVIL.


Look at the scripture you quoted, let me scribble something in:

He who believes in LOVE, though He may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in LOVE shall never die. Do you believe this?'

I can do this with no problem. Even on judgment day I dare you bring up this accusation.

Your the one who is going to have to explain why the dictionary of your soul says Love is anything but Jesus Christ.

You never laid eyes on Love cause if you did you would be talking to me about God.

If you can tell the difference between Love and God, buddy you have A LOT to learn about BOTH.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

They have a word for Faith without Love. EVIL.

Who are 'they'? Again I ask, how can you love someone you don't believe in?

What you need, Utilyan, is to find yourself a good book on the attributes of God, because you plainly don't know anything about Him. When I preach the Gospel I often point out three attributes in particular:

First, God is holy. He is unutterably holy. 'Holy, holy, holy is the LORD God of hosts!' That means that He is separate from sinners and cannot have anything to do with them. 'You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look upon wickedness' (Hab. 1:13).

Secondly, God is just, righteous. That means that He must punish sin. 'God is a just Judge.....' Well, who's going to say that God is an unjust judge? '......And God is angry with the wicked every day' (Psalm 7:11). God must punish sin.

That sounds pretty worrying for sinners, doesn't it? Fortunately, God has another attribute:

God is love. Therefore He has devised a way for guilty hell-deserving sinners to be right with Him.
[More to follow later]

 

[utilyan]

Who are 'they'? Again I ask, how can you love someone you don't believe in?

What you need, Utilyan, is to find yourself a good book on the attributes of God, because you plainly don't know anything about Him. When I preach the Gospel I often point out three attributes in particular:

First, God is holy. He is unutterably holy. 'Holy, holy, holy is the LORD God of hosts!' That means that He is separate from sinners and cannot have anything to do with them. 'You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look upon wickedness' (Hab. 1:13).

Secondly, God is just, righteous. That means that He must punish sin. 'God is a just Judge.....' Well, who's going to say that God is an unjust judge? '......And God is angry with the wicked every day' (Psalm 7:11). God must punish sin.

That sounds pretty worrying for sinners, doesn't it? Fortunately, God has another attribute:

God is love. Therefore He has devised a way for guilty hell-deserving sinners to be right with Him.
[More to follow later]

I love Darth Vader. I do not believe in Darth Vader. Piece of cake.

Love is God there is nothing holier then Love. Whatever you got in mind take love away from it.....and it is trash.

Justice, punishment, discipline, wrath of God are all wonderful things. No its not a worrying for sinners, its only worrying for sinners who DONT TRUST GOD.

I can't even tell the difference between SATAN and your idea of GOD.

A bully with a chain letter with the exact same deal Satan gives Christ. Slightly improved with a threat for refusing.

A Terrorist, Dissuading the commands of GOD. Focused solely on reward and balancing the value of particular command of GOD?

I say LOVE GOD, Well that doesn't give salvation.....guess I'll pass.

Tell me one thing wrong about what I think of God. I could write a whole book on whats wrong with what you think of God. Bout as friendly as an abusive drunk father.

Its no wonder you go out of your way to PROTECT us from your idea of God.

Even deep down in your soul you are already more kind and loving then the monster you protect us from.


While just the opposite I can tell you God loves you, you are his son, He is your top protector. You'll never hear me threaten you with God.

God is so KIND and so LOVING it will make you want to punch your best friend's face.

You study the bible to figure how it can protect you from God, You should have went to God first so he can help protect you from the bible.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Tell me one thing wrong about what I think of God.

Two things wrong.
1. You don't know who God is.
2. You don't know what the love of God is.

You think that you are saved by love, do you? Well here's the criterion:

'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strength, and you shall love your neighbour as yourself.' Do you do that? Always? Perfectly? Without fail at any time? If you don't, you're in big trouble. '"Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law to do them" And all the people shall say, Amen!' (Deut. 27:26).

Since you have now returned to your customary troll mode, I think that's enough on this thread for me, unless someone sensible wants to participate.

 

[utilyan]

Two things wrong.
1. You don't know who God is.
2. You don't know what the love of God is.

You think that you are saved by love, do you? Well here's the criterion:

'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strength, and you shall love your neighbour as yourself.' Do you do that? Always? Perfectly? Without fail at any time? If you don't, you're in big trouble. '"Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law to do them" And all the people shall say, Amen!' (Deut. 27:26).

Since you have now returned to your customary troll mode, I think that's enough on this thread for me, unless someone sensible wants to participate.

"You think that you are saved by love, do you?"

No sir its beyond SELFISH MOTIVE of Salvation.

I love GOD for absolutely FREE. I'm not a whore for salvation.

What is the value of the command to love GOD?

Tell me its worthless and I'll "jump on board" with youDevilish


For he so LOVES THE WORLD. John 3:16

God's priority, His HIGHEST priority is LOVE. And get this, He loves you above all things even his own son.
God gets no salvation for it, no reward-we would say, Sometimes he doesn't even get a measly thank you.
But he does get a reward its you, exactly as you are, broken bits dirty and all.




You quoted:
'You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look upon wickedness' (Hab. 1:13).
Not the whole verse

13Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
Why do You look with favor
On those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
Those more righteous than they?

Your idea of God is a PHARISEE too holy to look at sinners or even touch them

If God's eyes were too holy to look on sinners........he could not see anybody.

My God is JESUS CHRIST always looks towards the sinners.
He would never turn his back on you.

Satan is too holy to look on anyone, Satan believes all mankind deserves hell.


1 timothy 2
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


1 timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.


Should find a video called "gospel in chairs"

 

[Internet Theologian]

I'm not a whore for salvation.

Seriously?

 

[kyredneck]

Show me even one eternal judgment passage that is not about our works.

There you go again, building a straw man.

It's no "straw man", or you, or the myriad of those like you, would produce such a passage. The fact is we will all be judged by our works. Yet the majority still holds to this non-Biblical mantra of 'faith alone' (all the while they themselves don't really really really believe it).

James 2:24 is spot on.

 

[kyredneck]

Just the one? OK. Luke 7:50.

This actually supports the point I'm trying to make concerning the regenerate heart being the source of works AND faith (and I thank you for giving me this) :

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that even forgiveth sins?
50 And he said unto the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. Lu 7

Again, go read what Paul writes about agape and THE LAW, OUR WORKS, Roman 13:8-10.

[add]

...and this is NOT a 'final judgment' passage like:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

It is NOT 'faith alone' as you keep erroneously, non-Biblically parroting.

 

[utilyan]

If it was said a "living faith" or "faith alone" was defined as "hope, faith and love" This wouldn't be a issue among us.

We are picky about this because sure enough someone will take a "dead faith" and say well see "faith alone" is all I need.

I don't understand the disgust and objection of having a faith with love in it as the requirement.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I don't understand the disgust and objection of having a faith with love in it as the requirement.

Because if salvation is by love then there's no hope for either of us.
Listen! You want to be saved by love? OK, here's the deal:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul , with all your mind and with all your strength. This is the first [ie. most important] commandment. And the second, like it, is this: you shall love your neighbour as yourself." there is no other commandment greater than these" (Mark 12:30-31). Now, are you going to say that you do these things all the time, perfectly, without fail at any point? 'For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"' (Galatians 3:10 quoting Deuteronomy 27:26).

You cannot come to Christ and say, "Look at my love!" because you cannot love Christ as He deserves, and you cannot love your neighbour as you should. If you think you can then your sin is pride which is an abomination to God (Proverbs 6:17; James 4:6).

You must come to Christ as a beggar. 'For Your name's sake, O LORD, pardon my iniquity for it is great!' (Psalm 25:11). You must lay hold of Christ as a drowning man lays hold of a lifebelt, doing nothing else but trusting it to keep you afloat, realising that you are a poor lost sinner whom God would be perfectly just in sending to hell this minute.

You have nothing to offer Christ that He would want. You say, "Well, I have given Christ my heart." Really? 'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked' (Jer. 17:9). "....Out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, deceit, lewdness.....etc." (Mark 7:21-22). And you're going to offer Christ that? Salvation is God saying to you, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:26).

 

[benbooth11]

James point is that true saving faith demonstrates itself in works.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[utilyan]

Because if salvation is by love then there's no hope for either of us.
Listen! You want to be saved by love? OK, here's the deal:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul , with all your mind and with all your strength. This is the first [ie. most important] commandment. And the second, like it, is this: you shall love your neighbour as yourself." there is no other commandment greater than these" (Mark 12:30-31). Now, are you going to say that you do these things all the time, perfectly, without fail at any point? 'For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"' (Galatians 3:10 quoting Deuteronomy 27:26).

You cannot come to Christ and say, "Look at my love!" because you cannot love Christ as He deserves, and you cannot love your neighbour as you should. If you think you can then your sin is pride which is an abomination to God (Proverbs 6:17; James 4:6).

You must come to Christ as a beggar. 'For Your name's sake, O LORD, pardon my iniquity for it is great!' (Psalm 25:11). You must lay hold of Christ as a drowning man lays hold of a lifebelt, doing nothing else but trusting it to keep you afloat, realising that you are a poor lost sinner whom God would be perfectly just in sending to hell this minute.

You have nothing to offer Christ that He would want. You say, "Well, I have given Christ my heart." Really? 'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked' (Jer. 17:9). "....Out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, deceit, lewdness.....etc." (Mark 7:21-22). And you're going to offer Christ that? Salvation is God saying to you, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:26).

Jesus never stated we were incapable. He even says sinners even love those who love them.

Luke 6

27“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29“Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. 30“Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31“Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34“If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

This is basic-basic-basic Christianity. If you don't believe Jesus here its no wonder your going to get everything else wrong.

Sinners love those who love them, So if God loves them, they can't pull it off?

Luke 6
45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.



You have to be saved by love because LOVE is God. 1 john 4

Love calls the shots.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

No love, No Jesus.

You say come like a beggar........Without love, you wouldn't even CARE to ask for forgiveness.

Without love we wouldn't even be discussing this, you would not care at all.

1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

You can KNOW all mysteries and all KNOWLEDGE. Right off the bat that means you know Jesus Christ exist, you certainly believe it, You know the trinity, You KNOW GOD. There is no question believing him.

You also have ALL FAITH. You trust, are confident, All faith is everyones faith add every holy man's faith that ever existed. Imagine your faith is so HIGH faith....in Jesus and God, you are now moving mountains at will.

....but don't have love? I am nothing.

Worthless.

Love is greater then Faith. Believe the scriptures. They spell it out for you:
1 Corinthians 13 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I spelled it out repeatedly from scripture.

Love is the end all be all.

Don't tell God you have a BIG problem, Tell your problem you have a BIG GOD.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Jesus never stated we were incapable.

Oh yes He did: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.' John 6:44

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Jesus never stated we were incapable. He even says sinners even love those who love them.

Well, yes He did, as Internet Theologian has pointed out.
The point about Luke 6:27ff is that they were spoken to those who were already disciples (Luke 6:20).

An poor lost sinner cannot muster up this love that you think God demands of him. If he is bringing a sacrifice of love to God, it must meet God's standard. 'It must be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no defect in it' (Leviticus 22:21). And sinful man cannot rustle up a perfect love to offer to God.

Our love will always fail. It is only God's love that is efficacious. But God is not only love. 'This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all' (1 John 1:5). God must find a way to justify sinful men and women without compromising His holiness and justice. 'In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation of our sins' (1 John 4:10).

Eternal Light! Eternal Light!
How pure the soul must be,
When, placed within Thy searching sight,
It shrinks not, but with calm delight
Can live and look on Thee.

The spirits that surround Thy throne
May bear that burning bliss;
But that is surely theirs alone,
Since they have never, never known
A fallen world like this.

Oh, how shall I, whose native sphere
Is dark, whose mind is dim,
Before the ineffable appear
And on my naked spirit bear
The uncreated beam?

There is a way for man to rise
To that sublime abode:
An offering and a sacrifice,
A Holy Spirit's energies,
An Advocate with God.

These, these prepare us for the sight
Of holiness above.
The sons of ignorance and night
May dwell in the eternal Light,
Through the Eternal Love. [Thomas Binney]

 

[utilyan]

Well, yes He did, as Internet Theologian has pointed out.
The point about Luke 6:27ff is that they were spoken to those who were already disciples (Luke 6:20).

An poor lost sinner cannot muster up this love that you think God demands of him. If he is bringing a sacrifice of love to God, it must meet God's standard. 'It must be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no defect in it' (Leviticus 22:21). And sinful man cannot rustle up a perfect love to offer to God.

Our love will always fail. It is only God's love that is efficacious. But God is not only love. 'This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all' (1 John 1:5). God must find a way to justify sinful men and women without compromising His holiness and justice. 'In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation of our sins' (1 John 4:10).

Eternal Light! Eternal Light!
How pure the soul must be,
When, placed within Thy searching sight,
It shrinks not, but with calm delight
Can live and look on Thee.

The spirits that surround Thy throne
May bear that burning bliss;
But that is surely theirs alone,
Since they have never, never known
A fallen world like this.

Oh, how shall I, whose native sphere
Is dark, whose mind is dim,
Before the ineffable appear
And on my naked spirit bear
The uncreated beam?

There is a way for man to rise
To that sublime abode:
An offering and a sacrifice,
A Holy Spirit's energies,
An Advocate with God.

These, these prepare us for the sight
Of holiness above.
The sons of ignorance and night
May dwell in the eternal Light,
Through the Eternal Love. [Thomas Binney]

That still doesn't mean we are incapable.

The line of logic to forcibly separate man from God, I can stretch that to my incapability of beating my own heart or that every breathe I take is dictated by God.

No one will wake up tomorrow unless God wills it.


I already pointed out scripture where Faith and Belief is negated and called nothing without love.

I can most assuredly say its by God's will I can declare you are mistaken.

A mirror to the Pharisees.

Matthew 23
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


Here we got a group of folks who declare others incapable of entering heaven, They claim themselves qualified but still won't go in themselves and complain about those who do.


The reason sin is sin is because one disobeys what God appoints one to do.

I don't say its God's fault he didn't give me enough holy spirit, or I can't, I can't.

I say its my fault, my responsibility, my disobedience.


Rather then looking for excuses to blame God, I take responsibility, I repent, I ask for forgiveness, and often give a wholly appreciated gratitude because he has taught me more of what I love above all else that is Loving God and Loving my Neighbor.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I already pointed out scripture where Faith and Belief is negated and called nothing without love.

You have done nothing of the sort.
You have pulled 1 Cor. 13 out of its context and made it an extra hoop for those coming to Christ to jump through.

To the ruler of the synagogue in Mark 5, the Lord Jesus did not say, "Tell me how much you love Me before I heal your daughter." He said, "Don't be afraid; only believe" (Mark 5:36)..

Love is the first and greatest fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). According to 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, it comprises all the others. But you cannot love someone whom you do not know. Whoever truly knows our Lord will surely love Him, but first of all, the word is, "Repent and believe the Gospel (Mark 1:15).

 

[Revmitchell]

I already pointed out scripture where Faith and Belief is negated and called nothing without love.

Well what you did was to twist its meaning and application to fit your presupposition. however, in no meaningful way did you negate belief and faith.

 

[utilyan]

The reason sin is sin is because one disobeys what God appoints one to do.
I don't say its God's fault he didn't give me enough holy spirit, or I can't, I can't.
I say its my fault, my responsibility, my disobedience.

Rather then looking for excuses to blame God, I take responsibility, I repent, I ask for forgiveness, and often give a wholly appreciated gratitude because he has taught me more of what I love above all else that is Loving God and Loving my Neighbor.


I can't accept your accusations against God.

 

[utilyan]

Show me someone or tell me of testimony who was saved all the while they hate God.

After being saved they still hate God.

Without Love they have no capacity to repent. God given or not Love is required for all to function.

GOD is LOVE. Of course if that's only Lip Service not an actual belief then its rather easy to believe Love is not required in Salvation.

But if its true, God is love, common sense says GOD is required in Salvation.

Love is required in Salvation.

 

[steaver]

He who believes in LOVE, though He may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in LOVE shall never die. Do you believe this?'

I can do this with no problem. Even on judgment day I dare you bring up this accusation.

Your the one who is going to have to explain why the dictionary of your soul says Love is anything but Jesus Christ.

Are you ready to explain to God why the dictionary of your soul says a person can be saved WITHOUT loving Jesus Christ?

A person who says they love God yet rejects God's LOVE provision for the sinner which is Jesus Christ, is a liar and reveals in their heart they do not "believe in LOVE".

Let's reword the scripture to fit your position as you like to do;

"He that believeth on LOVE is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the LOVE of the only begotten LOVE of LOVE." Do you believe this?

"For LOVE whom LOVE hath sent speaketh the words of LOVE: for LOVE giveth not the LOVE by measure unto LOVE. The LOVE loveth the LOVE, and hath given all things into LOVE"S hand. He that believeth on the LOVE hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the LOVE shall not see life; but the wrath of LOVE abideth on him.

This is how your twisting of God's Word destroys the message of God's Word. Those who do not believe on JESUS CHRIST are condemned already. This is the message. You can do your word games all day long and it will not thwart God's message to those willing to receive the truth and be saved. Your message will only keep the lost lost. This I would not want on my charge come judgment day. I can just see you arguing with God even at the judgment saying 'no Jesus, they didn't have to receive You, they only needed to love God and love their neighbour'.