'Faith Alone' and James 2:24.

[kyredneck]

Right! I've got it now. So unregenerate people don't have consciences. Thanks for letting me know.

Thanks for letting me know that you have the ability to discern who's 'saved' or not. Unregenerate people do not 'do by nature' the things of the law. That law has to be supernaturally written upon their hearts. Just like the circumcision of the heart, not made with hands.

 

[NetChaplain]

When you read James in context, he is not saying that works save us but that true faith will be proven by works. James says that someone says that he has faith so prove it - and that he can prove his faith because of his works.

Hi Ann - I find you're comment accurate concerning "prove" because the Greek usage for the word "justified" in this context is "to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous." The other definition for "justified" is "to render one righteous," which is something only Christ can do through His expiation for sin!

Good subject MM!

Greek usages for "justified": Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)

"So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone" (NLT). Works can never effect righteousness because one must first be righteous before he can bring forth works of righteousness; which righteousness begins with Christ and remains His as He uses us in it. Thus works cannot be antecedent of faith and righteousness, nor can works ever produce righteousness, only manifest it.

Thanks for your site labors in Christ, and God's blessings to your Family and all on this site! God be blessed!!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks for letting me know that you have the ability to discern who's 'saved' or not. Unregenerate people do not 'do by nature' the things of the law.

They do, and you know it. You see it in your unsaved neighbours day by day. Many unsaved people have high moral standards and it upsets them when they don't live up to them. God's moral law was written on the heart of Adam in the Garden. Otherwise He could not have called His creation 'very good.' At the Fall, Adam broke most of the Commandments, and fell from his sinless state, but the knowledge of God's righteous law persists to some degree among all people, even the worst of them, 'Knowing the righteous judgement of God that those who practise such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practise them' (Romans 1:32). How do they know that?

That law has to be supernaturally written upon their hearts. Just like the circumcision of the heart, not made with hands.

The law that was written on Adam's heart is smudged and defaced in his descendants; it was written on stone tablets under the Old Covenant, but in the New, it is written anew on the hearts of believers.

 

[kyredneck]

God's moral law was written on the heart of Adam in the Garden.

You got scripture that expounds on that?

You who are such a stickler for 'context', are you deliberately skewing this scripture to make it fit in your theological box? Where in the text is A LAW even mentioned? It's NOT a law, it's THE LAW:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God,
18 and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth;
21 thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?
23 thou who gloriest in the law, through thy transgression of the law dishonorest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?

The context is THE LAW, not some moral code that your theologians have dreamed up and that you're now parroting.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The context is THE LAW

Of course it is. Now what?

 

[utilyan]

This argument would be over real quick if folks identify what they mean by FAITH.

If faith is like a bag with things in it, containing love of God the very allegiance to God there would be no debates going on here.


But as is, it does not work.


Demons believe Jesus is God.

Mark 5

7and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!”


The Demons clearly have faith alone in Jesus. They believe in Jesus Christ, they know what Jesus says is the truth, everything contained by faith.

What they lack is a love of God.

 

[MennoSota]

Hebrews 11
[1]Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

 

[steaver]

What they lack is a love of God.

And who gets to determine who God is that they may actually love God and be saved? The Muslims? The Catholics? The Jews? You say that loving "God" saves despite any belief that Jesus is God, then I could say my pet boxer is God and I love him, so am I then saved? Tell us, who gets to say who God is that they can truly say they love the One and Only true God?

 

[utilyan]

And who gets to determine who God is that they may actually love God and be saved? The Muslims? The Catholics? The Jews? You say that loving "God" saves despite any belief that Jesus is God, then I could say my pet boxer is God and I love him, so am I then saved? Tell us, who gets to say who God is that they can truly say they love the One and Only true God?

Just knowing Jesus is God is not the saving factor. As presented the Demons know Jesus Is God.

Mark 5

7and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!”


A person with same belief and principles as SATAN meets your criteria for saved, Yet the GOOD SAMARITAN fails your criteria and was Jesus' example on the road to be saved.

If the GOOD Samaritan believed Jesus was God he'd be a Christian not a Samaritan.



Concerning Pagans Paul says:

Acts 17

26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;



Peter himself expected advantage for being a believer asking Jesus, Jesus replies with a perfect fairness expected, A person's ignorance is taken into account, in fact more is expected of us who have the genuine faith.

Luke 12

41Peter said, “Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?” 42And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43“Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44“Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45“But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect himand at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.47“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.


The guy who says OF COURSE Jesus is God yet believes Jesus attitude is of a NAZI, he's got the wrong guy despite the same name.


In short the bottom line is Jesus is a GOOD GUY, the most merciful, the kindness and most loving.


I bet your make believe boxer god is a lot more kind and loving then half the Jesuses presented here.

 

[steaver]

Just knowing Jesus is God is not the saving factor.

You said "loving God" is the saving factor. So you did not answer my questions.....

"And who gets to determine who God is that they may actually love God and be saved? The Muslims? The Catholics? The Jews?"

You will have to explain how a person can reject who God says He is and at the same time declare they love God.

 

[utilyan]

You said "loving God" is the saving factor. So you did not answer my questions.....

"And who gets to determine who God is that they may actually love God and be saved? The Muslims? The Catholics? The Jews?"

You will have to explain how a person can reject who God says He is and at the same time declare they love God.

"And who gets to determine who God is that they may actually love God and be saved? The Muslims? The Catholics? The Jews?"

God determines who God is and who gets saved. It is not our estimation.

Proverbs 3
5Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.

Matthew 25

35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’


God is Love. Good Samaritan is perfect example. Scripture says you can't love God who you have not seen unless you can love the brothers you do see.


John 10
37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”


John 14

. 11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.



What Jesus states is a far cry from "Submit to me believe I am God or ELSE!"

Notice he points to the principle he stands for being a higher priority. That is Good guy 101, not selfish.




Submit before me acknowledge I am God and you will get a kingdom, Jesus never states anything like this in the bible. Satan however states that as a condition to Jesus during the temptation.

We don't right for rewards, the reward is we do whats right.


Look if a Pagan sought out Jesus to help their Pagan child life would Jesus turn them away?

Matthew 15

21Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.




There is no favoritism based on religion. Here Jesus could have said "wait hold up! be christian and make your daughter christian too". But Jesus Christ only feigned a exclusivity of his religion alone, He even rejected her, Called her a DOG. And in the face of rejection this pagan pleads for her pagan daughter.

You can probably count on your fingers how many times Jesus tells a person that their faith is great.

 

[steaver]

God determines who God is and who gets saved. It is not our estimation.

Proverbs 3
5Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.

Very good! Now remember that as we move forward reading the Word of God which God says who He is and who gets saved.

Matthew 25

35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’


God is Love. Good Samaritan is perfect example. Scripture says you can't love God who you have not seen unless you can love the brothers you do see.

Very good! But the question at hand is does loving your brother save even as you reject the propitiation for your sins? You see, you are letting out the sin part. You are a sinner needing a Saviour no matter how much you think you love your brothers. The Jews thought they were doing quite well loving their neighbours and Jesus rebuked them for not believing He was the Son of God, even telling them they would die in their sins for not believing. This part you deny...

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24)

Can you explain how what Jesus said coincides with your beliefs that believing that He is the Christ is not necessary for salvation?

John 10
37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”


John 14

. 11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.



What Jesus states is a far cry from "Submit to me believe I am God or ELSE!"

Notice he points to the principle he stands for being a higher priority. That is Good guy 101, not selfish.

Actually the scripture you just quoted is Jesus trying to convince them to believe He is the Christ, the Son of God.

You are quoting all through the Gospel of John. Can you explain this from John for us....

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

You keep saying belief in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation. Jesus keeps saying that it is...