Faith; Before or after salvation?

[Brother Bob]

Hey my brother,

Regeneration is being born again. Titus 3:5 "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

Then faith comes first for it is by Grace are we saved, but to get there ist "through faith". You can't even please God without faith, and I don't believe in salvation without belief first.

Jhn 8:24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

Then faith comes first for it is by Grace are we saved, but to get there ist "through faith". You can't even please God without faith, and I don't believe in salvation without belief first.

Jhn 8:24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Brother Bob,

That Scripture teaches I am saved by Grace, through the means of faith, all of which is the gift of God. I never said, and even said in the previous posts, about the means by which God saves..the Word of God. But it is God doing the saving brother Bob, not your faith.

You cannot please God brother Bob, either without faith or by being in the flesh. And you are in the flesh if the Spirit of God does not abide in you. But you are in the Spirit, if the Lord is in you. Also, please refer to the passages in 1 John. I think the biblical evidence is pretty clear.

I just saw the second verse you quoted. I agree 100% of course. Unbelievers will die in their sins.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

That Scripture teaches I am saved by Grace, through the means of faith, all of which is the gift of God. I never said, and even said in the previous posts, about the means by which God saves..the Word of God. But it is God doing the saving brother Bob, not your faith.

You cannot please God brother Bob, either without faith or by being in the flesh. And you are in the flesh if the Spirit of God does not abide in you. But you are in the Spirit, if the Lord is in you. Also, please refer to the passages in 1 John. I think the biblical evidence is pretty clear.

I believe the faith is ours, God does not need faith in anything. We are the ones who need faith.
I believe in the spirit striving with man to be the first thing that happens, but that spirit striveswith all men, not just the elect.We must believe and there are at least two meaning to believe. One is just to believe that someone is who they say they are. The other is faith, to believe in someone to be able to perform what he says, in this case, someone who will deliver you out of sin into a glorious hope in Jesus Christ.
God deals to every man the measure of faith, but tells us to add to that faith, virtue, which is to be cleasned, knowledge, which the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, departing from evil is understand, temperance, which is to be hardened enough to withstand all the wiles of the devil, patience, means to be patience in our being delivered from this world of trouble, Godliness, which means to live a Christian life and not be committing adultery, Brotherly kindness, which means to be kind to each other as much as we can, having this fleshly nature, the last is Charity, which of course, is the love of God.

Grace -through-faith. Faith is the vehicle to get to the Grace and receive Salvation.

Of course this is simply the old C/A debate. It seems every subject we come up with always end up here.

 

[LeBuick]

Brother Bob,

That Scripture teaches I am saved by Grace, through the means of faith, all of which is the gift of God. I never said, and even said in the previous posts, about the means by which God saves..the Word of God. But it is God doing the saving brother Bob, not your faith.

You cannot please God brother Bob, either without faith or by being in the flesh. And you are in the flesh if the Spirit of God does not abide in you. But you are in the Spirit, if the Lord is in you. Also, please refer to the passages in 1 John. I think the biblical evidence is pretty clear.

I just saw the second verse you quoted. I agree 100% of course. Unbelievers will die in their sins.

The gift can be rejected. There are many who from unbelief reject the free gift of grace and salvation. Yes, God offers (grace) the gift (as opposed to the wages of sin) but faith is still the means (as you stated) to the end called salvation. His grace and the gift was his son who died for all those who will believe? Is it not?

 

[LeBuick]

You cannot please God brother Bob, either without faith or by being in the flesh. And you are in the flesh if the Spirit of God does not abide in you. But you are in the Spirit, if the Lord is in you. Also, please refer to the passages in 1 John. I think the biblical evidence is pretty clear..

In this passage of scripture you used, flesh is being used interchangeably to the law. It is saying you can't please God simply by obediance to the law (flesh). The "Spirit of Christ" is obtained by one means, faith in Christ is it not? It is not faith AND or faith OR it is just faith.

Keep in mind, Paul is addressing Jewish tradition (the law) regarding obedience to the law (a fleshly act which is believed to be Godly) and is saying don't worry about the law, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Those who walk in the spirit by faith will not be condemned.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Allan]

I think I know what your looking for in an answer here. I say, and I believe it is the Scripture that teaches, that regeneration necessarily precedes conversion. Or as you asked, we are saved and believe.

I use the word regeneration and conversion on purpose. Regeneration means being born again. Conversion means repentance and faith in Christ Jesus. So, I say again, Regenereation necessarily precedes conversion.

There are several texts of Scripture that answer this question.

1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:29
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


Now, the verb "born" is in the perfect tense showing that this action precedes the other actions, that of practicing righteousness, not committing sin, loving, and believing. (see resource)

I am sure we would all agree that the practicing of righteousness, loving the brethren, and not committing (habitual) sin, are things that follow, or come after being born again. The same is said of "whosoever believeth.."

It was the Lord who opened Lydia's heart so that she "attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." Acts 16:14.

Jesus taught, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 It those whom the Father draws/gives to the Son that shall (not might/maybe/or possibly) come and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let us not get too hung up on timing. It may that the things happen simultaneously, but certainly not before. In this way no glory can be given to man, but all glory to God. Amen.

RB

resource: http://www.9marks.org/CC/article/0,,PTID314526|CHID598016|CIID1731702,00.html

I would like to discuss this with you brother, but I have one question that will help me understand better your position because it something that cause a great deal of confussion between C's and non-C's.

Do you believe that reneration (born agian) is the same things as being saved?

 

[convicted1]

RE: Faith before or after salvation?

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. We(the born again believers) are resurrected from a dead state to a lively hope. Faith has to come before salvation, not after.

Our hope is an anchor of the soul; both sure and stedfast.

Without faith, we have no hope. We must put our faith-and hope-in Jesus Christ.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I would like to discuss this with you brother, but I have one question that will help me understand better your position because it something that cause a great deal of confussion between C's and non-C's.

Do you believe that reneration (born agian) is the same things as being saved?

I guess so brother. Can a person be considered "saved" and not be regenerate? I think we would agree no. Yet I see in Scripture in the salvation of God, that being "saved" includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. We were saved, are being saved, and will be saved.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I believe the faith is ours, God does not need faith in anything. We are the ones who need faith.
I believe in the spirit striving with man to be the first thing that happens, but that spirit striveswith all men, not just the elect.We must believe and there are at least two meaning to believe. One is just to believe that someone is who they say they are. The other is faith, to believe in someone to be able to perform what he says, in this case, someone who will deliver you out of sin into a glorious hope in Jesus Christ.
God deals to every man the measure of faith, but tells us to add to that faith, virtue, which is to be cleasned, knowledge, which the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, departing from evil is understand, temperance, which is to be hardened enough to withstand all the wiles of the devil, patience, means to be patience in our being delivered from this world of trouble, Godliness, which means to live a Christian life and not be committing adultery, Brotherly kindness, which means to be kind to each other as much as we can, having this fleshly nature, the last is Charity, which of course, is the love of God.

Grace -through-faith. Faith is the vehicle to get to the Grace and receive Salvation.

Of course this is simply the old C/A debate. It seems every subject we come up with always end up here.

If I understand you correctly, man has to have a part in God's work as well. It's God plus something? Man must improve upon the grace of God?

What I am trying to articulate, and what I believe the Scriptures teach me is simply, Salvation is of the Lord. I do not pray, "I thank thee O God, that your grace and mercy worked together with my own faith, which I had of myself, and used to make your grace effective in my life." I pray this way, "I thank thee O God, that your grace and mercy has given me everything I need to be yours. I could not even believe on you. Yet in pure mercy and lovingkindness your Light shone in my darkened and depraved heart and I arose and followed you. It was your mercy that led me to repentence. I love you my Lord, with all my heart, because you first loved me."

Brother Bob, isn't the latter prayer the prayer of your own heart? I am certain it is.

When speaking of systems of theology or in terms of the C/A debate as you call it, I do not hear in the "A" system a theology that makes me pray as I pray.

Now do understand me my brother, and hear my heart. I am not here to delight in entering a controversy with anyone. I am here to glorify and magnify the Lord Jesus Christ, and if He is willing, to comfort and encourage the saints of God.

A quote from J.I. Packer, "Where the Arminian says, 'I owe my election to my faith', the Calvinist says, 'I owe my faith to my election.' Clearly, these two concepts of election are very far apart. "

Your brother,
RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

In this passage of scripture you used, flesh is being used interchangeably to the law. It is saying you can't please God simply by obediance to the law (flesh). The "Spirit of Christ" is obtained by one means, faith in Christ is it not? It is not faith AND or faith OR it is just faith.

Keep in mind, Paul is addressing Jewish tradition (the law) regarding obedience to the law (a fleshly act which is believed to be Godly) and is saying don't worry about the law, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Those who walk in the spirit by faith will not be condemned.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I suppose that is not the understanding I receive from reading that passage of Scripture. I don't see the two concepts used interchangably. The Scripture speaks of the law doing, or not doing, something, and God doing, or not doing something. What could the law not do, in that it was weak through the flesh? I believe the answer is right there in verse 4. Righteousness. The Law could not bring about the righteousness of God in that it was weak through the flesh. The Law written upon tablets of stone was a law of sin and death to us.

But God has done this! By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, so that the rigtheousness of the law might be fulfilled in us. If we are in the flesh, that is, under the law, we are carnally minded. We are unrenewed in our minds. But if we are spiritually minded, that is, if the Spirit of God lives in us, we are not carnal, but spiritual. Those who are in the flesh, i.e. unregenerate, cannot please God. But we (Christians) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Hallelujah! Now that is good news my friend! What we could not do, but were bound under law to do, but most clearly were found sinners through the Law and worthy of death, in that the flesh was weak, God has done through His Son Jesus Christ. Because of Christ the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us!

Soli Deo Gloria!!!!

Your brother in Christ,
RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. We(the born again believers) are resurrected from a dead state to a lively hope. Faith has to come before salvation, not after.

Our hope is an anchor of the soul; both sure and stedfast.

Without faith, we have no hope. We must put our faith-and hope-in Jesus Christ.

Wouldn't you agree brother, that the story of Lazarus' ressurection was given to us to illustrate what your talking about...being ressurected from a dead state (dead in our trespasses and sins) to a lively (living) hope? I think so. And when do you think Lazarus believed...before he was regenerated or after?

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The gift can be rejected. There are many who from unbelief reject the free gift of grace and salvation. Yes, God offers (grace) the gift (as opposed to the wages of sin) but faith is still the means (as you stated) to the end called salvation. His grace and the gift was his son who died for all those who will believe? Is it not?

I believe that the "gift" was purchased and actually secured by Christ. Christ's death/redemption did not merely make salvation possible, it actually accomplished, or procured (if that is an appropriate word) salvation for those for whom Christ died. Is it possible for Christ to actually accomplish salvation for His people, and for Christ to be dissatisfied? I answer GOD FORBID! And the Scripture answers no as well. Consider these verses, and much more could be added, but its 2am. lol

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." Isa 53:11

In this is clearly seen the doctrine of election as we call it. The Father gives to the Son a people. All that the Father has given the Son SHALL come. Not maybe, not might, not will reject it. They shall come. Jesus came to do the Father's will. "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39.

I see in this no provision for failure. What a Divine exchange! What security! Can we suppose for a moment that the Father would will the Son to do something, and the Son be unable to accomplish it?????????? God forbid! All that Father has given the Son SHALL come, and none of them will be lost, for God is not willing for any of THEM to perish, and they WON'T, but for all OF THEM to come to repentance, and they SHALL. Hallelujah!

v.40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

O sweet and gracious invitation! Sinner, do you see the Son of God? There He has died for the ungodly upon that old rugged cross. Will you believe on Him? You cannot do anything to save yourself. Jesus Christ, Son of God, is the Saviour of sinners and bid you come. Do you hear His gracious invitation? Come to Me calls the Saviour, and I will give you rest. Whoever comes to me I will in no wise cast out. Christ Jesus has all power to rescue and save you from the awful condition of sin and wickedness you are in. His death and sacrifice shall be profitable to all who come to Him and put their full trust in Him.

This election is not without faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. But understand the order. 1. The Father elects/gives. 2. The Son Redeems. 3. We see and believe. Our seeing and believing does not spring from ourselves, but from the bosom of the Father. And unless we wonder if man has this ability in himself to come to Jesus, we are not left in doubt:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. " John 6:44-45

They shall ALL be taught of God. Who? All that hath heard and learned of the Father. These are the ones that come. Who are they? All that the Father has given to Christ. You mean every single person? No sir. We are not universalists, and neither is the Scripture. These are the believers in Christ, whom the Bible calls the elect of God.

So no my brother, this "gift" will not be rejected by the elect of God.

 

[Allan]

I guess so brother. Can a person be considered "saved" and not be regenerate? I think we would agree no. Yet I see in Scripture in the salvation of God, that being "saved" includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. We were saved, are being saved, and will be saved.

I hope that answers your question.

I just wanted to make sure what perverbial page we were on since the majority of Calvinists I know (and on here) declare that regeneration isn't salvation but the condition of the man prior to it that he MAY BE saved.

Just for clarification do you believe the 2 statements below are true.

(1) A person saved person is a regenerate.
(2) However, it does not follow that at a regenerate person is saved as of yet.

For me:
1. Yes
2. No

 

[Brother Bob]

What I am trying to articulate, and what I believe the Scriptures teach me is simply, Salvation is of the Lord. I do not pray, "I thank thee O God, that your grace and mercy worked together with my own faith, which I had of myself, and used to make your grace effective in my life." I pray this way, "I thank thee O God, that your grace and mercy has given me everything I need to be yours. I could not even believe on you. Yet in pure mercy and lovingkindness your Light shone in my darkened and depraved heart and I arose and followed you. It was your mercy that led me to repentence. I love you my Lord, with all my heart, because you first loved me."

Please, How could you pray to Him you do not believe in? How could anyone accept God, if they do not believe there is a God? Why would you ask God to save you, if you did not believe God could save you? It would not make sense to me. IMO

 

[Brother Bob]

If I understand you correctly, man has to have a part in God's work as well. It's God plus something? Man must improve upon the grace of God?

Mat 9:22But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Mat 15:28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Mar 5:34And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Mar 10:52And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

I only go by scripture that I have.

Wouldn't you agree brother, that the story of Lazarus' ressurection was given to us to illustrate what your talking about...being ressurected from a dead state (dead in our trespasses and sins) to a lively (living) hope? I think so. And when do you think Lazarus believed...before he was regenerated or after?

RB

I have never looked at this scripture this way. I have always looked at it to show the Glory of God and that Jesus was the Christ and the resurrection. He said "I am the resurrection".

I guess you could look at it the way you said. I can see what you say, could also represent being raised from a dead state of sin, but this was an actually resurrection of the body, when raised from a dead state of sin, is the soul. IMO

Jhn 11:40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

Is it possible in Calvinist belief for someone to believe he is an "elect" but God had not saved him yet, and was waiting for it to happen?

 

[Mr.M]

These poor Calvinists...

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I just wanted to make sure what perverbial page we were on since the majority of Calvinists I know (and on here) declare that regeneration isn't salvation but the condition of the man prior to it that he MAY BE saved.

Just for clarification do you believe the 2 statements below are true.

(1) A person saved person is a regenerate.
(2) However, it does not follow that at a regenerate person is saved as of yet.

For me:
1. Yes
2. No

I think defining terms is always a good thing. Rather than leave it "the majority" of calvinists or persons who disagree with calvinism that we may know, as opposed to what the larger body of each respective group believes, let's resign definitions to their confessions of faith and catechisms.

For this purpose, let's use, for calvinists, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the longer or shorter catechism, and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. I have substantial agreement with the 1689.

Here are some definitions/answers from the shorter catechism:
Q. 33. What is justification?
A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace,[91] wherein he pardoneth all our sins,[92] and accepteth us as righteous in His sight,[93] only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us,[94] and received by faith alone.[95]

Q. 35. What is sanctification?
A. Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace,[97] whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God,[98] and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.[99]

Regeneration is synonmous with being born again. To be regenerated is to be born again, or born from above, or born of the Spirit. Some quotes may serve to help:

James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): "It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart" (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374).

John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): "1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God's causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes" (taken from Broadus' A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68).

B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): "The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." Carroll goes on to state that "repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration" (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287).

NOTE: Very excellent commentary set. I own it. Very rare.

The Baptist Faith and Message states, ""Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

The idea that a regenerate, or born again person, is not "saved" seem utterly strange and odd to me. Would the Lord cause a person to be born again and that person not possess the salvation of the Lord? In order to see the Kingdom of God we must be born again. It is the born again person who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, lives holy, abstains from sin, and loves the brethren.

 

[Brother Bob]

A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace,[91] wherein he pardoneth all our sins,[92] and accepteth us as righteous in His sight,[93] only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us,[94] and received by faith alone.[95]

I know this is to Allan and not to me but I hope you will indulge me for this one little line.

and received by faith alone

To me this says it all.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

These poor Calvinists...

Poor in spirit, rich in God. Poor in self-reliance and self-righteousness, rich in grace and imputed righteousness. Poor in trusting one's self, rich in faith given to us by our Father. Poor in praise from man and the world, rich in praise of the Lord who redeemed us. Poor in man glorying in my flesh, rich in glorying in the Lord. Poor in man-centered theology, rich in God-centered theology.

Indeed, I am poor in many ways.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I know this is to Allan and not to me but I hope you will indulge me for this one little line.

and received by faith alone

To me this says it all.

So far brother, nothing you have quoted in Scripture has contradicted what I have written. So, I rejoice in the all the Scriptures you have quoted, and respectfully disagree with your opinions of them.