Allan said:
Interesting thoughts.
IF not all men have faith but the elect only - Then how can those who according to scripture that DO have 'faith' ever have what scripture calls a vain or dead faith.
According to your view all Faith is centered in Christ, it is that which comes from God that we will do His good will. And yet we find in many places that a faith which does not produce works (literally good works by faith which are acceptable to God) is a vain faith (empty faith), a dead faith (having no life or acceptability toward a living God).
So how can there be 'vain', or dead 'faith' if faith is something that is given by God only to the redeemed?
NOW - if you contend there is actaully two kinds or types of faith (God givin and mans natural) I have some questions:
(1) why did God need to give a special type of faith other than the faith man already has?
(2) If regeneration (in the Calvinistic sense) makes a man alive unto God and thereby has no choice but to choose God, does this regeneration not also make the faith within man already - alive or regenerated as well?
(3) and if so, why is it now necessary to give this mystical new 'faith' to man, when the faith man already has is now alive unto God like the new man already is?
The problem is, is that we do not find in scripture God 'giving' faith to anyone in the sense they never had it. Why - because it is something already present within man to use. But unless God intervene mans faith will always upon that which has no life and therefore 'dead' and 'vain'.
Regarding Faith -
Faith is neither Good nor evil (it is void of any of these qualities in and of itself), but it is the object of faith to which it has been placed which defines it's goodness or lack there of. The quality of faith is dependent upon the object in and to which it is set.
Therefore, the object of our faith Christ Jesus is said to have come down from heaven, is He not? The very object in which our faith finds it worth or Godlyness/Holyness/Righteousness.
I find no where in the scripture that God must give us faith because we do not have it. This has not been shown from the scriptures. There is Godly faith (because of its object) and ungodly (because of its object). But the fact still remains that man does have the ability to have faith (even the scripture accerts this truth) so why does God need to give this New Faith, when man is regenerated and all things become new? Is mans faith the only thing that was not regenerated and made new? If it is made 'new' then it was already in existence within man.
It is a logical falisy and a scriptural inconsistancy of God 'giving' faith as though it was something that was never there or that it was not regenerated along the rest of the New Man of which Faith is the cornerstone of its inparting to us.
When I say cornerstone I mean that unless we believe we will not be saved:
And all the other verse that speak of believing unto salvation.
I think more Non-Cals would have less contention on this subject if the Calvinist would say faith is something all men have but that all men can not use it in a saving way without the direct intervention of God towards man.
Please forgive me brother, if I miss a particular point of logic you have shared here. I do not mean to. I think you have heard the term saving faith before. Perhaps in the context of sharing the gospel with someone that is obviously an unbeliever and they say, I believe in God. Sometimes Christians respond, even the demons believe that!
I am sure Lucifer believes Christ died and rose again from the dead. Does this mean Lucifer is saved? Can he even be saved? No. Redemption was not made for him, or the other fallen angels (which men seem not to care except when God does not elect people).
We say that THE faith of Christ is the work of the Spirit of God. "The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened."
This faith could not be already present within someone. Why? Because this faith comes by hearing, and by hearing the Word of God. This we know. Yet the Scripture also says, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Rom 10:14
God sends preachers to preach the Gospel that they may hear and call on Him in whom they have not believed. If none are sent, they will not hear and will not have faith in Christ Jesus.
You asked how men may have a dead, or vain faith. Is this not the self-same as no faith at all, or a pretended faith? James is certainly writing to believers in his epistle, and is it true that there are some who say they know God but in works deny Him? Is that the faith of Christ which we are called by Jude to earnestly contend for? Or, as Titus says, this salvation by grace through faith of whcih we speak, is it "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
Yes indeed, the grace of God (not man, or his abilities) that bringeth salvation has taught us thus. THIS salvation is the Salvation that is of the Lord...not of the Lord AND man.
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 2:13-14
Doesn't this Scripture strike at the modern notions of Arminianism? Listen to the Apostle brother. He is thanking God for us. Us who? Believers, brethren, who are beloved of the Lord. Why?
Because God (the Father) has from the beginning (of the world) chosen us to SALVATION. Certainl included in this election is holiness of life and adoption as it is written by God in Ephesians. Yet here is more light on election. He has chosen us to salvation. And HOW will that salvation come to us? Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: And how did this happen? Exactly what we have been saying, through the effectuall calling of God through the Gospel, for it is the Gospel that is power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. And the end here is also in view, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Call it calvinism or whatever one wishes to call it. It is the plain, clear teaching of Scripture. The sovereign election of God is clear seen in the salvation of men, not apart from their responsibility to believe, but showing that their faith and belief in the truth springs FROM God's choosing. God's choosing DOES NOT spring from our faith.
I don't know what more can be said.
I am editing because more can be said. Would you like to take a small diversion and discuss the Sovereighty of God and the duty of man? I see a fallicy in the belief that because every single man is duty bound to repent and believe the Gospel, it necessarily means they must have the ability to do so. This is the fallacy I see in your logic above.
(same goes for the non-cal). So thank you for setting you view down.